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[Who is that Masked Man]

Addai67 wrote...

*snip*
Did she force Maric to go with her after freeing him?  Was she responsible for him being imprisoned, as others have suggested upthread?  As far as we and Alistair know, Maric went with her willingly, and she considers Tevinter dude an enemy so obviously his kidnapping wasn't in her plan either.  So what did she do to Maric that was so terrible?  Blaming Yavana for Maric running off and thus ruining Alistair's life and Ferelden seems very odd, and childish.  So is blaming her for Flemeth and Morrigan.  Alistair can suspect they're all in cahoots, but I don't recall that that was established anywhere.

That part I bolded remains the major sticking point for me.

I guess my head-canon is going to be that Alistair stabbed her for the purely practical reasons discussed in this thread, but that even he finds that sort of thinking rather cold, so his "justice" malarky is what he's come up with to help him sleep at night.

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
 Her, Morrigan, Flemeth-- you don't think someone might get a little angry at the web of deceit these witches have spun? Might want to do more than just walk away? It's not a question of whether you agree with his actions, but whether they fit the character he is-- or whether they're really so astoundingly stupid that you can't imagine anyone doing them. With which I disagree.

Certainly I can see people dealing with these Witches getting frustrated with their wishy washy cryptic BS nonanswers and schemes. Hell, I'm quite annoyed by it. As is Varric:


Its more that I'm bored with every Witch of the Wild interaction seeming to amount to what seems like elementary school kids arguing:

Witch: "Neener neener neener! I've got a secret and I'm not telling you!" *sticks out tongue*
Alistair: " Y u no help me?
Witch: "Ok! I help...if u help me with something!"
Alistair: "What u need help with?"
Witch: "Neener neener neener! I've got a secret and I'm not telling you!" *sticks out tongue*
Alistair: *HOMICIDE*

I guess my contention is that while its annoying and easy to see why one would get angry, skipping all the way to murder, outright ending someone's life, seems a bit...much? Its just so extreme, considering we have no clue what they had planned? Just seems like a bit of an overreaction.

It would be like Charlie Brown blowing off Lucy's head with a 12 gauge after she yanked the football away from him. Except even with Yavana, Alistair has only known this women for what? A couple hours? The ending just seemed more than a little melodramatic for the sake of melodrama. At the very least I'd hope there are repercussions for Alistair's little temper tantrum of first degree murder.

[WhiteKnyght]

So, are future installments of Alistair's adventures going to show what happened regarding mages and Templars? Considering this is set after Kirkwall and presumably Asunder.

- Do mages walk around freely like everybody else and run whenever they see a Templar?
- Do the templars impose martial law and kill anyone who doesn't comply with them?
- Will Alistair bump into Fiona and find out whether or not they are mother and son?

[Corker]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Would Alistair's blood even work for Yavana's ritual? I mean, yeah, he's of Calenhad's line and all. But unlike Maric, Al's blood is kind of... corrupted.

Good point. Finn can't use a Dalish Warden's blood to find the Lights of Arlathan in 'Witch Hunt' because of the taint.

Though Yavana might just have been thinking that tainted blood was better than no blood.  If she didn't get Alistair, one wonders what her backup plan was.  Switch to some other country's royal line?

[nightscrawl]

David Gaider wrote...

Kavatica wrote...
Maybe because he didn't realize what she was up to until the end?

She was attempting to seduce him with an offer she thought would work-- freedom from the responsibilities of his blood. One might consider what that offer looked like from his end, and what it cemented her as in his mind. It's meant to be surprising, but I'm not sure it could be said to come out of nowhere.

Now that I think about it, this tactic of hers was probably her undoing. As we all know, Alistair, hardened or not, does not want to be king. In DAO you can get him to accept it either grudgingly or more on his own terms. Either way, he does accept the responsibility of being king. So I can see that her trying this kind of stuck in his craw and made him go "F it, I'm tired of all of this manipulative BS. *stab*"

David Gaider wrote...

I'm not sure I would say what he did then was justified or even moral, but it's not without reason.

I'll admit, my Wardens and Hawkes have never been beyond such actions.


Also, people referencing the dark ritual need to remember that the reason for Alistair being alive here isn't specified, so you can't point to that as some example of Morrigan doing him a huge favor -- although yes I do admit that his line on p.8 "Why is it always a ritual?" does seem to hint at that. However, that doesn't change the fact that in the time he knew them, both Flemeth and Morrigan were secretive, manipulative, in favor of their own agendas.

I really wish my Warden could be in with Alistair on all this so we could learn everything together .

Modifié par nightscrawl, 04 mai 2012 - 07:40 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

Alistair hadn't expressed any outrage about Yavana's "abducting" Maric in issue 4... not out loud to her face, and not in his thought/narration bubbles after the meeting, either. So when he's suddenly all "You deserve to die, for kidnapping my daddy and ruining everything" it just seemed kind of weird, to me.

It's not the first time Alistair has apparently concealed ill will towards another before yelling 'Off with his head!' Look at Loghain. All through DA:O Alistair grieves for Duncan's death, he can even blame himself for it, but there is practically zero anger directed at Loghain as the perceived culprit until the final stretch of the Landsmeet. One can conclude only that Alistair either plays certain emotions very close to the chest, or, from a cynic's view, it was deliberately set up thus for the surprise factor.

In light of the Riordan intervention, and that Yavana's motives seem vague at best, this looks like another case of Alistair overreacting and jumping the gun instead of getting all the facts first, whether or not his mental conclusions were ultimately correct.

I'll definitely be there for the next part. I'm just not sure what to expect from Alistair from this point on out.

Well, pointy stabby death for any more Witches of the Wherever, for starters.

Or a pyre.

[Ilidan_DA]

David Gaider wrote...

Wiedzmin182009 wrote...
David, who is the mysterious woman in the picture? This priestess? Oracle?

Andraste, unless I'm misremembering. Being led by magisters of Tevinter off to her burning. It's part of a religious tapestry.

Thank you for your response.

It Andraste? Very interesting.

Will we see the whole tapestry depicting this event?

[Maria13]

Point is I don't think Maric ran off.

He was captured and confined by the crows. Captured again by Yavana, I'd highly doubt that he went with her willingly; more than likely he was coerced or perhaps beguiled. He still had two sons and a kingdom to look after. And now this Titus guy... He's a pawn, a handy coin in other people's trades and powerplays.

How he must hate that... Theirins are anything but proud.

And Alistair, likewise, having been through something very similar magically/politically (Morrie, Eamon...) decides he needs to cut to the quick. How likely was it that Yavana would have told him anything straight? He has no means to pursuade or compel her.... So instead he opts for showing her that he means business, that he's his own man and that those that seek to mess with him will pay a price... It's a brutal world.


Could be he's sending a message ahead and that's the wisest course in the circumstances.

Modifié par Maria13, 04 mai 2012 - 10:03 .

[nightscrawl]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

It's not the first time Alistair has apparently concealed ill will towards another before yelling 'Off with his head!' Look at Loghain. All through DA:O Alistair grieves for Duncan's death, he can even blame himself for it, but there is practically zero anger directed at Loghain as the perceived culprit until the final stretch of the Landsmeet. One can conclude only that Alistair either plays certain emotions very close to the chest, or, from a cynic's view, it was deliberately set up thus for the surprise factor.

It's not surprising really. For most of his life, Alistair's own wants, needs, and feelings were never taken into consideration by anybody.

[Corker]

Auntie Corker Explains It All (Whack Crack Edition)

All right, not 'all.'  I still can't quite fit in the 'blood of Calenhad,' but this idea has greatly increased my merriment this morning.

Back, back in the days of the Tevinter Imperium, a bunch of magisters wanted to siege the Golden City.  But - no one had physically entered the Fade before!  It was dangerous!  And yet... the first ones to go would accrue much glory.

As a risk reduction exercise, the magisters decided to send a thing into the Fade first.  Lyrium, as it exists in both Thedas and the Fade at once, was a primary component.  But the thing, with its many fine tendrils and delicate magical lattices, collapsed under its own weight when made of pure lyrium.  Silverite would have been the typical material to join to it, but silverite was too massive - too difficult to will into the Fade.  Dragonbone was much lighter and nearly as strong; plus it also easily took runes.

And what runes!  Advances in the telekinetic arts imbued the object with drive, a basic, unthinking will to move.  This would propel it through the Fade, exploring.  (Later, the technology would be refined to animate the grand bronze guardian statues of Emerius.)

A control station was developed underneath the city of Emerius, whose streets were rebuilt to focus magical power for the endeavor.  The empire was scoured for somniari, even among the subject peoples and the slaves.  All who could be found marked the device with their blood - this may be the beginning of phylactery technology.

Christened Peregrino, the Wanderer, the device was magicked into the Fade in a ceremony that would only be surpassed by the eventual manned mission.  The somniari could send their consciousness into the Fade and instantly will themselves to their blood, going to Peregrino's side and observing its location in the Fade.

Alas, Peregrino's random drive did not steer it to the Golden City, but the magisters learned much about the near and, eventually, far Fade, before the somiari involved in the project died or went mad.

Thousands and thousands of years later, a crystalline entity emerges from a great Fade tear!  Calling itself P'no, it demands to speak to others of its kind.  Told there are no others of its kind, it insists it was called back to Thedas by its very bones, and that it knows it heralds from this world.  And it will be very, very angry if its demands are not met!

In a desperate attempt to save the world, one hero manages a great magic to go back in time, to capture a (now extinct) dragon to talk to P'no.  But the hero comes out the other side gravely injured and not at all in Tevinter; an unexpected Fade Anomaly seems to have altered the course to a primitive weedy hut in Ferelden.  Dying, the hero tells the dark beauty there this tale of future woe, and a young Flemeth agrees to ensure that it will not come to pass.

:innocent:

[Maria13]

Mmmm... The first Star Trek movie?

[Corker]

First and fourth, sort of mashed together, with a nod to the various space anomalies that plagued the shows (but especially ST:TNG for some reason).

I meant to somehow work in, "Archon, we have a problem," but forgot.   (That's really more appropriate to Andoral 13, the ill-fated voyage to the Golden City, anyway.)

Modifié par Corker, 04 mai 2012 - 11:36 .

[Maria13]

Did you like the 2009 reboot? I loved it... Pine & Quinto... Ah!

[JimmyTheProthean]

I agree with Alistair Stabbing Yavana , maker knows what would happen if he just walked away she
could of done anything to him from a spell to the backside from her staff to
sending one of the Dragons that live in the grove after him. By Stabbing her he ensured he would have enough time to get out of the swamps safely so
Gaider was right in doing this.

[Addai]

Maria13 wrote...

Point is I don't think Maric ran off.

He was captured and confined by the crows. Captured again by Yavana, I'd highly doubt that he went with her willingly; more than likely he was coerced or perhaps beguiled. He still had two sons and a kingdom to look after. And now this Titus guy... He's a pawn, a handy coin in other people's trades and powerplays.

What makes you think that?  He left a message behind for his son saying that he had to leave Ferelden.  That was his bargain with Flemeth, apparently.  Getting captured by Crows was a sudden yet inevitable predicament, but I see no reason to assume that Maric had changed his mind about having to leave, especially since that's what he told his prison cellmate.

And Alistair, likewise, having been through something very similar magically/politically (Morrie, Eamon...) decides he needs to cut to the quick. How likely was it that Yavana would have told him anything straight? He has no means to pursuade or compel her.... So instead he opts for showing her that he means business, that he's his own man and that those that seek to mess with him will pay a price... It's a brutal world.


Could be he's sending a message ahead and that's the wisest course in the circumstances.

If it works for you, fair enough.  She's probably not really dead anyway.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 mai 2012 - 03:44 .

[Maria13]

Given my preferred version of his backstory... That he loathed performing the Dark Ritual with Morrie, it does.

[Who is that Masked Man]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

*snip*

It's not the first time Alistair has apparently concealed ill will towards another before yelling 'Off with his head!' Look at Loghain. All through DA:O Alistair grieves for Duncan's death, he can even blame himself for it, but there is practically zero anger directed at Loghain as the perceived culprit until the final stretch of the Landsmeet. One can conclude only that Alistair either plays certain emotions very close to the chest, or, from a cynic's view, it was deliberately set up thus for the surprise factor.

In light of the Riordan intervention, and that Yavana's motives seem vague at best, this looks like another case of Alistair overreacting and jumping the gun instead of getting all the facts first, whether or not his mental conclusions were ultimately correct.

I seriously disagree with the "practically zero anger directed at Loghain" part of your argument. It's pretty clear from the very first conversation right outside Flemeth's hut that Alistair blames Loghain for what happened at Ostagar. He calls Loghain's actions "insanity," and says that Arl Eamon won't let him get away with it.

When Alistair brings up wanting to meet "someone" (Goldanna) in Denerim, one of the dialogue choices allows the Warden to assume that Alistair is talking about taking revenge on Loghain. Choose that option ("Don't worry, we'll take care of Loghain" or something like that) and Alistair replies with "I know we will."

Hardened Alistair doesn't think that Anora should be queen, because she reminds him too much of Loghain, always thinking she knows better than anyone what Ferelden needs and so on.

And then again in the Return to Ostagar DLC, we have Alistair again condemning Loghain for his treachery, as well as for ruining the potential peace with Orlais (while humorously missing the point that Cailan seemed to be having some kind of illicit romance with the Orlesian empress).

That's all just off the top of my head. So, I would argue that there are plenty of hints that Alistair was carrying a grudge against Loghain, and that his demanding Loghain's execution at the Landsmeet was in no way surprising.

Still, I guess I'd have to agree that being overly impulsive and jumping the gun can fairly be called one of Alistair's charater traits. Especially now.

Modifié par Who is that Masked Man, 04 mai 2012 - 09:03 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Well, note that I didn't say there was absolutely zero anger. I'd also suggest that agreeing to take care of Loghain/calling his actions insanity etc. is not always the same as expressing anger or hate towards the person. One could say Cailan's actions were insanity.

Suffice to say that any strong negative emotions Alistair had towards Loghain, they are not represented nearly so strongly as his grief over Duncan. It's all too easy to miss the few hints that exist, especially if you don't harden him and don't have that DLC or don't take him as a companion for it, whereas it's impossible to avoid his sadness over Duncan. You even meet Loghain face to face just as the Landsmeet segment of the game commences (moving to Denerim) and Alistair reacts not at all even though Loghain talks about him. Nor does he react when he learns Loghain hired assassins to kill him. Such silent moments feel conspicuous, at least to me.

For what it's worth, I searched Alistair's dialogue a while back to see how many times he speaks of Loghain, and if memory serves I could only find one direct statement of negativity towards him. The rest, such as what you mentioned (sans DLC), are simple allusions, or observations of policy. It is, in fact, completely different to when he draws the PC aside to gossip about the party members and he'll be candid about his opinions of them.

But that's the game. It's possibly off-topic in this thread. XD I was originally wanting to ask if the comics had any similar lead up to Alistair's attack, especially considering readers have access to some of his thoughts in this medium, or if it just happened and he tries to justify himself afterwards.

[Nalia_dArnise]

The ending of the comics was... a bit shocking. Alistar and what had he done with Yavana... I really liked this character, but now I can't look on him without... disgust. Yeas, It's a right word. I only hope that Yavana stay alive. If she isn't, Alistar musht't lake offence if I execute hif. Why not? For great jusctice, as he had done.

[Reznore57]

I just re read the comic yesterday , and i think it fits.
Alistair think that his father gone missing caused a lot of trouble ,and it kind of did.
Cailain wasn't mature enough to be a king , we saw it at Ostagar.Things would have been different if Marric has been here.Loghain betraying Marric seems unlikely to me.
So i think Alistair doesn't care at all about the greatest plan of Flemeth and co.What he sees is they use people as a mean to an end no matter what damage it may cause.
Yavana tells him "just don't be a king anymore , leave it all behing ,it's gonna be fun!", That's when it happens.

I mean as far as Alistair knows if Father been kind of tricked by Flemeth to give away his whole life , just so he can wake huge dragon with his blood.

[Maria13]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

XD I was originally wanting to ask if the comics had any similar lead up to Alistair's attack, especially considering readers have access to some of his thoughts in this medium, or if it just happened and he tries to justify himself afterwards.

I will only start in the last comic, no. 6, there may well be hints in the others... Reverse order suit you?

The answer is very clearly "Yes".

On p4 Yavana resurrects Claudio to interrogate him about his master, in order to get him to talk she threatens to tie his soul to his rotting body.  It's gruesome and there is one close up of Alistair's face where he looks disgusted/appalled and perhaps a little fearful... He seems to be taking the measure of Yavana's powers and her morality.

P5 Yavana has released Claudio.  Izzy and Varric look shocked but Alistair seems to have pulled on a mask, his eyes are hooded and he questions Yavana very coolly as to the import of what she has found out. In the next frame, a close up of Alistair's face this guarded expression becomes a smirk as he says "And we helped you find it." In the final frame on the page Izzy asks "Has she been testing you or just screwing with us?" We're looking at the threesome from above, Alistairs' fists are clenched, he's standing very upright and he replies, "That last one, I never pass tests."  A reference as to how he was selected by Duncan perhaps?

Well, having reached this point it's very clear to me that both the illustrations and the clipped words should set alarm bells ringing. Alistair has taken Yavana's measure, judged she's been messing them about and probably already made up his mind on his next course of action should the opportunity present itself.

Which it does when Yavana invites him to descend with her to some caverns under the temple, leaving Izzy and Varric behind...

I don't think I need go any further, the comic clearly sets it out.  There are a further two frames on pp 8 and 9 where Yavana touches Alistair and he scowls with an expression of disgust. At the bottom of p 8 clearly showing a combination of disgust and distress he asks "Why is it always a ritual?". He begins to draw his sword in the first frame of p 9 which immediately follows.  Yavana doesn't seem to notice (too wrapped up in herself?) The stabbing occurs at the end of p 9.

Hope this is helpful.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Reznore57 wrote...

Cailain wasn't mature enough to be a king , we saw it at Ostagar.Things would have been different if Marric has been here.Loghain betraying Marric seems unlikely to me.

I believe Maric made Loghain promise once that if it came to a choice between saving his life or preserving the many lives of his men, then save the men. Hence what happened to Cailan. Whether he'd have reacted differently had it been Maric at Ostagar, who knows.

[Maria13]

Oooopsy!!!

Modifié par Maria13, 05 mai 2012 - 11:50 .

[Maria13]

In fact there is almost no post killing public justification from Ali. The words he says blaiming Yavana for taking Maric from him, Cailan and Ferelden  are said over her dead body when he is alone. When he goes back up (p11) Izzy asks "Are you okay?" He replies. "No. I killed her." and there is another close up of his face and he looks distressed.

On p12 he tells Varric he's tired of being a pawn and then says he's going to search for Titus and kill him as well, recover Maric and return to Ferelden and be king...

Modifié par Maria13, 05 mai 2012 - 12:02 .

[rapscallioness]

oh, my favorite characters off having adventures in Antiva.......I wish I could go, too..