893 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Herr Uhl wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Great, Alistair left my warden behind to go romping around antiva with Isabella

No, he left your warden for Varric.

No, your warden already went mission at this point already. YOUR WARDEN LEFT HIM.

[dreman9999]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Willybot wrote...

I guess Isabella didn't stick with my Hawke afterall. That's.....disappointing.

No, it's more like Isabela didn't stick with Hawke in David Gaider's game. 

That's how I look at these expanded-media things anyway. 

For example as far as I'm concerned?  I don't know The Illusive Man's past and I don't care to know.  Why?  I ignore the comic.  It's really easy to do.  Watch.

*sits in silence, looking somewhat focused*

See it's gone.

It's more likely that when the champion went missing, Isabella did not go with him/her.

[syllogi]

The Warden and Hawke pull a Hero of Neverwinter/Revan/Exile and disappear at the end of DA2. Any characters who were romanced by them aren't going to just sit down in a corner quietly until they come back...if they ever come back.

I stopped being attached to my Warden around Awakening. It will be nice to read about Alistair's further adventures, but I know very well that whatever my headcanon was for DA:O isn't going to have anything to do with it.

[Lucy Glitter]

Mr.House wrote...

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

Gaider has said his comic is not canon.

So please, guys, calm down.

It's the bsn Lucy

Point. Taken.

/Alistair

[TheJediSaint]

Eh, people are reading into this too much. I for one, am intrigued by the premise of the comic. The dialogue possibilities of having Varric, Isabella, AND Alistair in the same story just boggles the mind. I mean, this comic is likely going to be bursting with witty one-liners, innuendos, and puns.

Oh, God! Just think of the puns!

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 16 octobre 2011 - 04:42 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Mr.House wrote...
There was alot of chocies in DAO and DAO gave a fantastic illusion but in the end, choices ment nothing since it always ended in the same outcome. Archdemon dies. Let's compare this to say TW2 which choices do have a meanning, There is so many outcomes it's not even funny.

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

DAO's choices affected the history of Ferelden's nations/groups/cities.  The fact that the archdemon always dies does not negate the fact that choosing to keep the anvil changes Orzammar's history.

You can't just say "the choices didn't affect the final boss battle and thus had no meaning".  That's completely arbitrary and nonsensical.

Now, the fact that these epilogue slides have since been retconned or said to be unofficial does not affect the actual game.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 16 octobre 2011 - 04:47 .

[Mr.House]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
There was alot of chocies in DAO and DAO gave a fantastic illusion but in the end, choices ment nothing since it always ended in the same outcome. Archdemon dies. Let's compare this to say TW2 which choices do have a meanning, There is so many outcomes it's not even funny.

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

DAO's choices affected the history of Ferelden's nations/groups/cities.  The fact that the archdemon always dies does not negate the fact that choosing to keep the anvil changes Orzammar's history.

You can't just say "the choices didn't affect the final boss battle and thus had no meaning".  That's completely arbitrary and nonsensical.

Now, the fact that these epilogue slides have since been retconned or said to be unofficial does not affect the actual game.

It has nothing to do with affecting the final boss, it has to do with the outcome.  If you played games like AP, TW, TW2 you would understand what I mean. DA2 had the perfect time for a Bioware game to do diffrent outcomes and they screwed it up when they made both endings lead to the same outcome.

Modifié par Mr.House, 16 octobre 2011 - 04:54 .

[jlb524]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

DAO's choices affected the history of Ferelden's nations/groups/cities.  The fact that the archdemon always dies does not negate the fact that choosing to keep the anvil changes Orzammar's history.

You can't just say "the choices didn't affect the final boss battle and thus had no meaning".  That's completely arbitrary and nonsensical.

Now, the fact that these epilogue slides have since been retconned or said to be unofficial does not affect the actual game.

When people say 'choices matter' I assume it means that there will be branching endings.  For example, KotOR had two different endings based on your choice with Bastila.

Of course both DA:O and DA2 have choices that mean something to the individual player and their own game canon even if they don't result in a different end outcome.  The only difference is the scale of those choices (the DA:O ones affect nations while the DA2 ones were more personal).  I understand people prefer one type to the other, but that's subjective.

Modifié par jlb524, 16 octobre 2011 - 05:00 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Mr.House wrote...
It has nothing to do with affecting the final boss, it has to do with the outcome.  If you played games like AP, TW, TW2 you would understand what I mean. DA2 had the perfect time for a Bioware game to do diffrent outcomes and they screwed it up when they made both endings lead to the same outcome.

The archdemon dying?  Stopping the blight? 

You're saying the only way DAO would have "choices that mattered" was if your arbitrarily selected event [in this case: killing the archdemon] was affected, and you completely disregard the fact that these choices had wide-scale affects on the game's setting.

The world can be in many different states when yous tart up DA2.  The fact that we don't see the results of keeping the anvil in that game does not change the state of the world.  The fact that the blight alone was a constant story element does not make all the choices in the game "an illusion".

[Big I]

Things like the novels with Maric in them work because they add to the player experience of the games. They do things like make Loghain sympathetic or introduce the Architect. I dislike the idea of things like Asunder and this comic because it takes away from player experience.


I chose how to resolve the situations of Alistair, Wynne and Isabella. I was satisfied with how those decisions played out. Why would I read something that told me that at worst I chose "incorrectly", and at best that the act of choosing was irrelevant because they end up in the same place anyway?


EDIT: It also seems to showcase a worrying trend in the crafting of Dragon Age projects. When Petrice couldn't be killed in Act 1 and giving Isabella to the Arishok made no difference to what happened to her, I was willing to pass it off as an aberation. When Leliana came back from the dead I was even willing to buy that because we were promised an explanation in the future. But now we're told that Wynne is alive no matter what? That Alistair is off having adventures in Antiva with Isabella and Varric? And it doesn't look like they're going to try and integrate these things into the game(s) narrative?

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 16 octobre 2011 - 05:09 .

[Esbatty]

OMG... Izzy! Varric! THE ROYAL BASTARD!

...

My inner Warden and Hawke are now locked in vicious duel over who gets to make me Man-Squee first!

[Myusha]

Antiva. Zevran. Alistair. Isabela. Varric.

The Snark Potential is going to kill me.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

jlb524 wrote...
When people say 'choices matter' I assume it means that there will be branching endings.  For example, KotOR had two different endings based on your choice with Bastila.

DAO had more branching endings than any game I've ever played.

But I guess that can be ignored because they're just text bubbles before the credits?  What about deciding who would rule?

By this logic I could just as easily say KOTOR only had one ending because Malak always died.

[whykikyouwhy]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
It has nothing to do with affecting the final boss, it has to do with the outcome.  If you played games like AP, TW, TW2 you would understand what I mean. DA2 had the perfect time for a Bioware game to do diffrent outcomes and they screwed it up when they made both endings lead to the same outcome.

The archdemon dying?  Stopping the blight? 

You're saying the only way DAO would have "choices that mattered" was if your arbitrarily selected event [in this case: killing the archdemon] was affected, and you completely disregard the fact that these choices had wide-scale affects on the game's setting.

The world can be in many different states when yous tart up DA2.  The fact that we don't see the results of keeping the anvil in that game does not change the state of the world.  The fact that the blight alone was a constant story element does not make all the choices in the game "an illusion".

I think what Mr.House is getting at is the concept that while the path to the end result is different based on the choices you/your PC make, the ultimate end result is the same. In DA:O, the Blight will end, the archdemon will be stopped. In DA2, someone and someone are both stopped, and something happens (no spoiler zone and all).

For some folks, that can equate to "no choices" or "my choices didn't matter" - because the path did not alter that ultimate outcome.

I don't know that House agrees with that assessment of choices not mattering (I don't dare speak for him), but I do believe he was merely trying to illustrate that point.

[Mr.House]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
When people say 'choices matter' I assume it means that there will be branching endings.  For example, KotOR had two different endings based on your choice with Bastila.

DAO had more branching endings than any game I've ever played.

But I guess that can be ignored because they're just text bubbles before the credits?  What about deciding who would rule?

By this logic I could just as easily say KOTOR only had one ending because Malak always died.

DAO had four endings. Unless slides now count as true endings.

[Esbatty]

I do not care if the comics or novels contradict decisions I made in the game. If the BW Devs can't put out a new DA game every week to sate my curiosity about Thedas, then I'm wholly fine with them taking a certain path to explore bits of the world in other media. To expect them to cater to my continuity/decisions OUTSIDE of the games themselves is just ridiculous. I may be a special snowflake but I'm not delusional.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Mr.House wrote...
DAO had four endings. Unless slides now count as true endings.

I don't see why they wouldn't.  I certainly didn't expect a 2 hour cutscene showing the results of all my choices.

And if we count the ruling party and status of the PC then DAO has at least six endings, seven if you're human noble.  And that's ignoring the PC class and race endings (which were retconned anyways but still present in DAO proper).

Not sure where you're drawing the line to get 4 endings.

[Mr.House]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
It has nothing to do with affecting the final boss, it has to do with the outcome.  If you played games like AP, TW, TW2 you would understand what I mean. DA2 had the perfect time for a Bioware game to do diffrent outcomes and they screwed it up when they made both endings lead to the same outcome.

The archdemon dying?  Stopping the blight? 

You're saying the only way DAO would have "choices that mattered" was if your arbitrarily selected event [in this case: killing the archdemon] was affected, and you completely disregard the fact that these choices had wide-scale affects on the game's setting.

The world can be in many different states when yous tart up DA2.  The fact that we don't see the results of keeping the anvil in that game does not change the state of the world.  The fact that the blight alone was a constant story element does not make all the choices in the game "an illusion".

We don't know how it is in Orzammar, we don't know how it is in Ferelden. We don't know anything because DA2 takes place in a diffrent country. ANything we did do we hear a little bit about which is not good enough or never talked. You might liek to go by text but if I don't see my choices matter, then no. It's an illusuion. I've played rpgs that did not need to go by text to show choices, they did it in game and I saw it. I don't care about any of the choices in DAO because
1: They had no wieght
2: I never saw it's consuqeunce

It being written in text is cheap and a cop out, it reeks of lazyness and Biwoare not really caring about choices.

[jlb524]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

DAO had more branching endings than any game I've ever played.

But I guess that can be ignored because they're just text bubbles before the credits?  What about deciding who would rule?

By this logic I could just as easily say KOTOR only had one ending because Malak always died.

So, if DA2 had epilogue slides no one would complain about it not having choices?

[In Exile]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
DAO's choices affected the history of Ferelden's nations/groups/cities.  The fact that the archdemon always dies does not negate the fact that choosing to keep the anvil changes Orzammar's history.

DAO's choices affected exactly nothing, any more than DA2's choices did. It's just Bioware's false choice paradigm, but for whatever reason the hate for DA2 led many people to realize just how false the choice is.

Now, the fact that these epilogue slides have since been retconned or said to be unofficial does not affect the actual game.

So if DA2 had epilogue slides, it would suddenly go from "no choice" to "lots of choice"? That's ridiculous. 

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Mr.House wrote...
We don't know how it is in Orzammar, we don't know how it is in Ferelden. We don't know anything because DA2 takes place in a diffrent country. ANything we did do we hear a little bit about which is not good enough or never talked. You might liek to go by text but if I don't see my choices matter, then no. It's an illusuion. I've played rpgs that did not need to go by text to show choices, they did it in game and I saw it. I don't care about any of the choices in DAO because
1: They had no wieght
2: I never saw it's consuqeunce
It being written in text is cheap and a cop out, it reeks of lazyness and Biwoare not really caring about choices.

So when you say you didn't see your choices matter you really mean, "I saw it, but it was text so I'm not going to count it because I drew my arbitrary line of relevance at cutscenes and sequel references only".

Gotcha.

jlb524 wrote...
So, if DA2 had epilogue slides no one would complain about it not having choices?

Possibly. though DA2's choices don't have the same scale. 

Deciding to side with one group over the other at the end of DA2 still brings both groups to the same place and we never hear about any differences.

Deciding who will be Orzammar's king and whether or not said king has access to the anvil puts the city in very different places, and we hear about it.

If DA2 had epilogue slides detailing actual differences in the choices then, yes, people could easily say that their choices mattered in some way to the lore and continuity of the game.  But it doesn't, and on top of that DA2 goes ahead and retcons many of the DAO choices as well.  It was handled very poorly.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 16 octobre 2011 - 05:25 .

[Kail Ashton]

and another thread bogged down by childish bickering of repeating the exacct same thing over and over til one conceeds, the ultimate child stratergy employed by "adults" here, unbelievible

[Blacklash93]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
I play these games for their stories first and foremost, but when even the creators of the series have little regard left for what they have already created, then why should I still give a damn?

You play these games for the story? Then enjoy it for what it is. I could enjoy a Bioware story even without the player agency.

The writers have much regard for what they have created. They love it so much, in fact, that they aren't going to compromise their vision of how certain characters should developed for the sake of a few pissy people who think their canon is sacred above all else. They aren't going to avoid addressing a certain canon just to please you.

These comic/books/whatever exist to flesh out the DA world and that's exactly what they'll do.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 16 octobre 2011 - 05:39 .

[jlb524]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Possibly. though DA2's choices don't have the same scale. 

They don't, but they are choices.  I tend to prefer these type of choices to the 'big scale' stuff (I found DA:O a little boring, tbh).

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Deciding to side with one group over the other at the end of DA2 still brings both groups to the same place and we never hear about any differences.

Deciding who will be Orzammar's king and whether or not said king has access to the anvil puts the city in very different places, and we hear about it.

But you do see results from some of the quests you did earlier in DA2 (like Feynriel's fate, for instance).  Again, the scale is different but the complaint should be 'I don't care for choices of this type' and not 'there were none'.

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
If DA2 had epilogue slides detailing actual differences in the choices then, yes, people could easily say that their choices mattered in some way to the lore and continuity of the game.  But it doesn't, and on top of that DA2 goes ahead and retcons many of the DAO choices as well.  It was handled very poorly.

So, when people say 'DA2 choices don't matter' they are really complaining about the lack of epilogue slides.  Retconning is a different issue and DA:O will always have an advantage as it's the first in the series...can't retcon anything.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

jlb524 wrote...
So, when people say 'DA2 choices don't matter' they are really complaining about the lack of epilogue slides.  Retconning is a different issue and DA:O will always have an advantage as it's the first in the series...can't retcon anything.

Not really sure how this turned into an analysis of DA2.  My original point was simply that the choices in DAO were not just "illusion" choices because they left the state of the world in drastically different places.

I do like some of the internal choices in DA2 that play out over the years.