22 réponses à ce sujet

[GGRush]

Well, I just read a few books about data analysis.

Most working companies and governments have data analysis teams.
They analyze data, and points several optimal directions according to the data.

However, in ME universe, it seems that many decisions by the council simply come from voting between three politicians (four, in ME2). As a result, many decisions seem to be quite baseless.

Such as after rachni war, council bans all relay research and after the geth drove out quarians, council bans all AI research and removes Quarian embassy. Such decisions should be left to scientists instead of politicians.

So how exactly does the council work? Are there in fact more than the four councilors making decisions? Or is the citadel council a really dumb political system?

[BentOrgy]

... Magic?

Bioware has made it a point to not look too deeply into how their galaxy works. Like the fact that, though the protagonist is in the military, very little of the military's structure, history, or day-by-day is established. It merely serves as a backdrop for the main story, much like the council does.

So its up to people like us, who ask questions and form ideas, to fill in the blanks ourselves.

Modifié par BentOrgy, 16 octobre 2011 - 10:56 .

[Raven4030]

Basically it's an oligarchy where in proposals are made, the people in charge vote on it, majority rules. In cases of ties I imagine it's based on the principle of "Which camp has enough guns to force thier political position on the rest of us?"

To get a general idea of my thoughts on the council, you know how they get pissy if you kill the Rachni Queen? With the word "genocide" thrown into the mix? I can't help but think to myself "Would it make you feel better if I strapped it in an environment suit?"

[Get Magna Carter]

I would imagine that what we have seen is a streamlined version of the council through their discussions with Shepard. I would imagine that the council is much larger and only use a few representatives to speak to Shepard (as it can be awkward with 20/30/50/100/whatever number of council members trying to all speak to 1 man).
Most decisions are probably made by a gathering of the full council discussing the facts, opinions, etc of the matter.
Just imagine how it would be if Shepard's first talk with the council consisted of 2 hours of Shepard talking to 30 council members....
...it would probably not make a good game

[Bogsnot1]

Magic 8 ball.
It never fails.

[GGRush]

Get Magna Carter wrote...

I would imagine that what we have seen is a streamlined version of the council through their discussions with Shepard. I would imagine that the council is much larger and only use a few representatives to speak to Shepard (as it can be awkward with 20/30/50/100/whatever number of council members trying to all speak to 1 man).
Most decisions are probably made by a gathering of the full council discussing the facts, opinions, etc of the matter.
Just imagine how it would be if Shepard's first talk with the council consisted of 2 hours of Shepard talking to 30 council members....
...it would probably not make a good game

What I think is that many of council's decisions are quite baseless.

'Ban all Relay/AI/Keeper research' doesn't sound like a decision made by professionals.

If a group of scientists are to make such a decision, at least it will become more detailed instead of banning the research outright. For example, after the rachni wars, the group of scientists will probably go into heavy discussions with facts and data, and decide which directions are OK, which directions are potentially dangerous and need increased security supervision and etc.

[Get Magna Carter]

GGRush wrote...

Get Magna Carter wrote...

I would imagine that what we have seen is a streamlined version of the council through their discussions with Shepard. I would imagine that the council is much larger and only use a few representatives to speak to Shepard (as it can be awkward with 20/30/50/100/whatever number of council members trying to all speak to 1 man).
Most decisions are probably made by a gathering of the full council discussing the facts, opinions, etc of the matter.
Just imagine how it would be if Shepard's first talk with the council consisted of 2 hours of Shepard talking to 30 council members....
...it would probably not make a good game

What I think is that many of council's decisions are quite baseless.

'Ban all Relay/AI/Keeper research' doesn't sound like a decision made by professionals.

If a group of scientists are to make such a decision, at least it will become more detailed instead of banning the research outright. For example, after the rachni wars, the group of scientists will probably go into heavy discussions with facts and data, and decide which directions are OK, which directions are potentially dangerous and need increased security supervision and etc.

The problem is that any government making decisions will either tend to be overly-safe or overly-risky.
In the game the council (originally founded by the Asari) are dependent on the relays and keepers and are scared that if they mess something up there way of life will be ended forever so they ban people from messing around. 

In the real world (human) governments go too far the other way and only ban such things when a major crisis occurs. (Presumably if reckless humans had beaten thecautious  Asari to the Citadel the council would have researched everything they could until major problems happened as a result)

[Pro_Consul]

GGRush wrote...

Well, I just read a few books about data analysis.

Most working companies and governments have data analysis teams.
They analyze data, and points several optimal directions according to the data.

However, in ME universe, it seems that many decisions by the council simply come from voting between three politicians (four, in ME2). As a result, many decisions seem to be quite baseless.

You have too much faith in the elegant logic and sense you saw in those books. You forget that the data analysts do not actually decide  anything. They merely present options to a person or group of people who are NOT data analysts, and who then make whatever decision they were already leaning toward anyway. This is how little boo-boos like the Iraqi insurrection and the collapse of AIG end up happening so frequently.

Step one: data analysts, or those performing that function under another job title, point out that this or that course could lead to disastrous consequences. Step two: a group of corporate executives or politicians decide to believe what they want to believe instead of believing the facts. Step three: disaster ensues, just as the analysts predicted. I see the Citadel Council as following this model perfectly.

GGRush wrote...

Such as after rachni war, council bans all relay research and after the geth drove out quarians, council bans all AI research and removes Quarian embassy. Such decisions should be left to scientists instead of politicians.

So how exactly does the council work? Are there in fact more than the four councilors making decisions? Or is the citadel council a really dumb political system?

I get the impression that there really are only 3/4 councilors, but that they are not actually making all the big decisions just by their lonesome selves. They all have their respective governments that decide what kind of policies to support or oppose. Udina/Anderson, for example, cannot just vote however he wants on any issue that comes along, but rather must vote as the Alliance government tells him to. When the matter is more urgent and consultations are not possible before voting, then no doubt the councilor is expected to use his or her own judgement in deciding what course best serves the interests of his own race. But if he proves to be a poor decision maker in such situations and thereby ends up at odds with his own race's government a little too often, then he will no doubt be recalled and replaced.

[Wulfram]

Isn't Synthetic Insights licensed for AI research? So they didn't shut it down completely, just strictly limited it, given it's proven ability to destroy your civilisation.

[Mr Zoat]

Actually quantum box AIs were already illegal. Thats why the Quarians were looking for a technically legal work around in the first place.

[Raven4030]

1) Actually, the Quarians were never looking for the Geth to achieve sapience. It was more an unforseeable accident caused by the Quarian design. It would be like if you kept on modding your computer for more and more processing power and eventually became the T-1000

2) @OP: No government in the real world lets the scientists or experts make the big decisions, these are ALWAYS left in the hands of politicians who have their own interests and constituent bases to worry about. And while you might think a technocracy makes more sense, the reality is that you would frequently run into situations of 'left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing' and while fields under these individual's jurisdictions would flourish, you'd still have somebody who is an expert in none of these fields (or an expert in one creating a vested interest) deciding who gets the money to do what, and thinking in terms of 'big picture'.

3) Codex says the Council is the chief executive committee, with no mention given to a legislative power. Then when you consider the judicial branch (C-Sec, and in a sense the Spectres) answers directly to the council... yah, I'm pretty certain there is no legislature.

And as I said before, it's pretty much a dystopian dictatorship. Oh sure, everything is great and wonderful on the surface, but the real nature of the council and its attendant governments is hinted at a bunch in the games:

-Spectres: Agents given near unlimited power who can do damn near anything in the name of "Galactic Security"? In addition to the standard problem of some agents being borderline cases (and in at least one case, dove headfirst over the line), you also have that eternal question: If the council is the only group responsible for determining who gets to be a Spectre and who isn't, then what's to stop them from just bringing aside a bunch of loyal recruits, saying "you're all Spectres," and having them purge political dissidents in the name of "Galactic Peace"?

-C-sec, your only judicial representation on the Citadel, answers directly to the council. Keep in mind that these are cops, they're the enforcement arm of the JUDICIAL branch but answer directly to the executive. There is a very good reason for seperation of powers, and when you combine judicial and executive... well, who here remembers the first French Revolution?

-The Council seems to have little restriction on what exactly it can declare 'legal' or 'illegal'. In addition to banning the opening of new relays and heavy restrictions on AI research, they also have a history of attacking free speech and sanctioning genocide. As evidenced by the following
  -VIs cannot emulate living personalities. Meaning if I want to create a semi-sentient parody of a famous figure (like Commander Shepard)? Illegal! This is pretty blatant censorship and nobody seems to bat an eye.
  -You remember the Quarians? Remember that one world they wanted to settle on but the Council said "F*** you" and gave it to the Elcor instead because... I dunno, they hate Quarians? Well, remember how they threatened to bomb them all to hell if they didn't move? Basically the council said "Leave this planet nobody cared about until you moved in or your species is extinct". That's pretty obviously sanctioning genocide.

Yah... I'm of the mind that the council is just a dictatorship whose only standards for admittance are "If we keep you out, can you blow enough of us up to make us regret it?"

[Wulfram]

Raven4030 wrote...

  -You remember the Quarians? Remember that one world they wanted to settle on but the Council said "F*** you" and gave it to the Elcor instead because... I dunno, they hate Quarians? Well, remember how they threatened to bomb them all to hell if they didn't move? Basically the council said "Leave this planet nobody cared about until you moved in or your species is extinct". That's pretty obviously sanctioning genocide.

The Elcor wanted it too, and the world was better suited to them - it's now inhabited by a few hundred million of them.  They just used the proper process rather than trying to nick it.

(Also I'll note that a lot of the planet descriptions are pretty dubious, and that Tali makes it pretty clear that the Migrant Fleet doesn't want to settle anywhere except Rannoch)

Yah... I'm of the mind that the council is just a dictatorship whose only standards for admittance are "If we keep you out, can you blow enough of us up to make us regret it?"

That's the only standard that works, really.  The Council must reflect the reality of power in the galaxy if it is to have relevance.  And a millenia of peace suggests it's doing pretty well really.

[d1sciple]

read the books, it's all in there

[Pro_Consul]

d1sciple wrote...

read the books, it's all in there

If we had the books to read then we wouldn't need to ask and speculate. So could you, as someone who has read those books, explain it to the OP and the rest of us? Thanks

[d1sciple]

this is an open spoiler forum but still i would feel pretty stink about doing that, so instead you can check this link out:

http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Council

[Bleachrude]

Raven4030 wrote...


-The Council seems to have little restriction on what exactly it can declare 'legal' or 'illegal'. In addition to banning the opening of new relays and heavy restrictions on AI research, they also have a history of attacking free speech and sanctioning genocide. As evidenced by the following
  -VIs cannot emulate living personalities. Meaning if I want to create a semi-sentient parody of a famous figure (like Commander Shepard)? Illegal! This is pretty blatant censorship and nobody seems to bat an eye.

That actually sounds more like TRADEMARK protection actually. In our world, using the image of anyone in ads/products wihout their acknowledgement is considered illegal.

At least the council doesn't extend this protection to X amount of years after death...no disney lawyers there it seems..

[CBGB]

Modifié par CBGB, 02 novembre 2011 - 06:38 .

[Raven4030]

Bleachrude wrote...

That actually sounds more like TRADEMARK protection actually. In our world, using the image of anyone in ads/products wihout their acknowledgement is considered illegal.

Using somebody's likeness in order to parody that person is perfectly legal regardless of the medium. If permission were needed to use somebody's likeness in a parody then 75% of a president's job would be answering requests from political cartoonists.

And I can't abide any organization that would make it illegal to make a VI of the Turian councilor who, after deleting something, goes "Ah yes, '<filename>', a piece of code that <description of file deleted>, we have dismissed that file."

[Yezdigerd]

d1sciple wrote...

this is an open spoiler forum but still i would feel pretty stink about doing that, so instead you can check this link out:

http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Council

There is nothing on the wilki about how the council makes decisions.

The Council is an executive committee composed of one representative
each from the member species. Though they have no official power over
the independent governments of other species, the Council's decisions
carry great weight throughout the galaxy.

We don't even know how they are elected.

[Qilue]

Yezdigerd wrote...

d1sciple wrote...

this is an open spoiler forum but still i would feel pretty stink about doing that, so instead you can check this link out:

http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Council

There is nothing on the wilki about how the council makes decisions.

The Council is an executive committee composed of one representative
each from the member species. Though they have no official power over
the independent governments of other species, the Council's decisions
carry great weight throughout the galaxy.

We don't even know how they are Selected.

(added an applicable letter)

Remember that Turian government is a militaristic hierarchical meritocracy. The turian counciller is probably one of the most senior (if not the most senior) leaders and as such would have real power. The salerians are also hierarchical and their counciller is probably chosen in a similar fashion.

The asari are ruled like an Athenian democracy so their counciller is likely to be the only elected one. Curiously, the geth 'government' operates along similar lines.

Modifié par Qilue, 02 novembre 2011 - 01:11 .

[We are]

I would assume the asari are the "most senior" seeings how they've been there the longest.

Turians are more aggressive with their military though. But regardless the asari are the diplomatic manipulators, they live for a pretty damn long time.

[BentOrgy]

While I don't deny they have a lot of fingers in a lot of places, I doubt the other races would let the Asari control too much. The Salarians discovered the Citadel almost as fast as the Asari, and Turians - as I'm sure you've seen - aren't the type to take things lying down.

So in the end, its all pretty level. Now, how the main three (Four, including humans.) treat the "Lesser," races, (Elcor, Volus, etc.) that's another matter.