49 réponses à ce sujet

[Gervaise]

The Qunari are frequently referred to as following a religion by other people in Thedas but this may simply be because there does not seem to be any concept of a philosophical tradition separate from religion.  However, in terms of what it most closely resembles, I would have said that was Communism.   There is no deity, a distain for capitalism, a collective purpose, assigned roles with children being identified for a particular purpose and then trained in it, Gulags for dissident members of their community and a thought police to track these down both inside and outside the lands they occupy.   They are willing to spread their influence either by direct confrontation or covert methods.   You could say it is Communism taken to extremes in that the individual has no place in the society, just part of a whole, even to the extent that you do not have a name, merely a title that indicates your purpose and sex is purely done to produce the next generation as part of a planned breeding program.   Affection between individuals exists but there are no family units.     The sleeper cells and the panic and suspicion this might engender if it were known reminds me more of the "Reds under the Beds" type of thinking during the Cold War.   

I realise that David Gaider may have said certain things with regard to the Qunari but even he admitted that in referencing Islam he was referring more to the confrontational aspects between two cultures than the actual religious dogma.    However, the gulf between Christianity and Islam is not as great a people might think, which is why at various times during their history together, the ruling power has been able to tolerate members of the alternative religion.  However, the gulf between either of those religions and communism was so great that the religion tended to be severely repressed or outright outlawed by the latter and religious adherants in capitalist cultures who seemed to be advocating a more equal society were viewed with great suspicion as being closet communists.  

It seems to me a similar situation exists Thedas.  If you are against the Qunari, this does not make you a religious zealot, merely someone who champions the cause of freedom and individual expression, even if you are a devout Andrastrian.

[blothulfur]

And where in the feudal slave empires is freedom and individual expression represented? We test and judge our children and assign them roles according to their skills and talents, you judge them by blood no matter their skill or determination. A half starved peasant shackled to the plough for all his and his descendants life knows neither freedom or individual expression.

A craftsman of the Qunari working in a field that suits his skills and temperament is free to express himself in any way he sees fit so long as it benefits the Qun, and he will advance based on his ability and aspirations rather than because of inbred blood or a non existent gods favour.

Modifié par blothulfur, 16 octobre 2011 - 01:20 .

[KJandrew]

As far as i was aware Gaider's reference to Islam was more about there relationship with the Tevinters, you know Ottomans and Byzantine parallels. Also kind of alluding to the Moors conquering Spain before they were pushed back, like Antiva, Rivain and places in the Free Marches.
OT: I'd say it's a mix of lifestyle choice, a rather extreme one and a political philosophy.

[dsl08002]

Depends how you look at it, it promises things such as unity and understanding,
but why would the qun dictate to destroy everyone who tries to leave it or don´t accept it.

[Augustei]

I always saw The Qun to be about as much of a religion as Buddism.. That is to say no, its not really a religion more a philosophy but still regarded as a religion by some - It has certain religious aspects but not wholely evident or central, its really mainly a philosophy

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 16 octobre 2011 - 01:39 .

[blothulfur]

We do not suffer Tal Vashoth to live amongst us, weakening our society with their selfishness. Unless they are a danger to the Qun they are free to leave.

[Augustei]

blothulfur wrote...

We do not suffer Tal Vashoth to live amongst us, weakening our society with their selfishness. Unless they are a danger to the Qun they are free to leave.

*MOTA SPOILERS*

The Qunari dont even seem to care for dangers to the Qun anymore, as witnessed recently by the champion of kirkwall in the mountains near wildervale one of your Ben-Hassrath revealed the Ariqun herself did not care to capture a Tal Vashoth who was going to reveal the names and locations of all members of the Qunari spy network to Orlais.. It seems the Qunari grow careless or to confident - It may be their downfall.. Luckily for the Qun some of its members are more dedicated to their path than others I guess,

[Wulfram]

I do wonder if anyone has tried to merge the Qun with a believe in the Maker. Saying that the Maker will return if we improve ourselves by following the Qun/

[Sidney]

The Qun here does resemble Islam because it is both a political philosophy and a religion (and call religion here a widely described term). There is nothing in being an Andrastian that stops you from following any particular political path that is layered on top of it. You could have an "Enlightenment" type movement along side Andraste's faith just as you did under Xianity. There is room for a "private" Andrastian faith without a public facing element. The Qun rejects that notion of any difference in a public and private sphere because faith is very much about duty to a greater whole not to yourself.

[heretica]

 This link has plenty of info about the Qun. 

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/The_Qun 

[DPSSOC]

dsl08002 wrote...

Depends how you look at it, it promises things such as unity and understanding,
but why would the qun dictate to destroy everyone who tries to leave it or don´t accept it.

Probably the same reason it dictates to destroy or convert everybody else.  They've already abandoned the Qun so conversion isn't an option so that leaves one option.  The reason for that being...I'm at a loss really.  We know why the Chantry wants to kill or convert everyone but I don't think we've ever been given a similar motivation for the Qunari.  They wish to spread their belief because they can near as I can tell.

[Sir JK]

It is without a doubt a religion. But all religions carry with them a philosophical core. There is no need for gods, spirits or anything in a religion. Just a creed. Which the Qun has. A religion is at it's core not mystical beliefs, but guidelines to how to live life. Common values. It's not so much understanding the world, as understanding other people.

[Herr Uhl]

Sir JK wrote...

It is without a doubt a religion. But all religions carry with them a philosophical core. There is no need for gods, spirits or anything in a religion. Just a creed. Which the Qun has. A religion is at it's core not mystical beliefs, but guidelines to how to live life. Common values. It's not so much understanding the world, as understanding other people.

So, political philosophies are religions? It is about as religious as communism, libertarianism or marxism.

Deism is seen as foolish, but it is tolerated in new converts.

[AlexXIV]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

It is without a doubt a religion. But all religions carry with them a philosophical core. There is no need for gods, spirits or anything in a religion. Just a creed. Which the Qun has. A religion is at it's core not mystical beliefs, but guidelines to how to live life. Common values. It's not so much understanding the world, as understanding other people.

So, political philosophies are religions? It is about as religious as communism, libertarianism or marxism.

Deism is seen as foolish, but it is tolerated in new converts.

Well if political philosphy denies existance of one or more gods then it is probably a sort of religion. Religion and politics should be seperate at all times, but mostly religion influences politics and the other way round. Even if they only discard deism as foolish, silly, wrong, etc., it's basically marked with prejudice. So yeah, since the Qun messes with other people's faith it is also a religion, or anti-religion if you want so, which is basically the same. Since it tells people what to believe and what not to.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 16 octobre 2011 - 03:50 .

[Big I]

1) The basic structure of qunari society is based on Plato's Republic.


2) Thedas is a fantasy version of medieval Europe. Within that context the qunari are a fantasy version of the medieval Ottoman Empire/Islamic world, which for hundreds of years was more technologically and socially progressive than Christian Europe.


3) The Qun is not a religion because "religion" is usually defined as a means of defining the underlying nature of the world, usually with reference to a higher power. The Qun makes no attempt to definitiely define the world, merely regulate the way in which people exist within the world. No qunari so far seen has ever mentioned that the Qun deals with matters of origin or afterlife.


Therefore, the Qun is a political philosophy, not a religion.

[AlexXIV]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

1) The basic structure of qunari society is based on Plato's Republic.


2) Thedas is a fantasy version of medieval Europe. Within that context the qunari are a fantasy version of the medieval Ottoman Empire/Islamic world, which for hundreds of years was more technologically and socially progressive than Christian Europe.


3) The Qun is not a religion because "religion" is usually defined as a means of defining the underlying nature of the world, usually with reference to a higher power. The Qun makes no attempt to definitiely define the world, merely regulate the way in which people exist within the world. No qunari so far seen has ever mentioned that the Qun deals with matters of origin or afterlife.


Therefore, the Qun is a political philosophy, not a religion.

The Qunari believe that if you die nothing remains of the one you have been. Their bodies are mere vessels which stop being of any worth once the person died. You can only believe in something or in nothing, in each case you believe.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 16 octobre 2011 - 04:08 .

[Gervaise]

In fact they have no concept of after life as this is what normally determines how people treat the dead: you give honour to the corpse in case the spirit of the deceased is angry (or something to that effect), apart from any other feelings you had about that person and not wishing to see their corpse defiled.

The Qunari regard a corpse as an empty husk and not worth bothering about - apparently no qualms about them being inhabited by spirits/demons despite the fact they know these exist. Which makes Tallis' behaviour odd as she says words over Salit's dead body - I've never seen any Qunari do that before - when the Arishok died, the other members of his party just got up and left and that Qunari looking for swords confirmed he wasn't worried about recovering any dead bodies (Mind you this was three years later so they would have only been bones by now - nevertheless in many cultures they would still want these recovered).

And Looking Glass is right - there is nothing we have been told so far to indicate that the Qunari bother themselves with where life came from or where we go after death. Unlike our own world, there is definite evidence of another plane of existance, the Fade, that is inhabited by spirits, which at least makes a belief in a spiritual afterlife a bit plausible. The Qunari belief is totally concerned with the present/material world and they try and distance themselves as far as possible from the realm of the spirits, partly out of fear I will admit, but they do seem in a state of denial.

[FaeQueenCory]

XxDeonxX wrote...

I always saw The Qun to be about as much of a religion as Buddism Confusianism.. That is to say no, its not really a religion more a philosophy but still regarded as a religion by some - It has certain religious aspects but not wholely evident or central, its really mainly a philosophy

Buddhism is VERY much a religion. I don't know where you got your Buddhist information... but Quan Yin and other Bodhisattvas would REALLY beg to differ about your "it's just a philosophy" idea. And the religious aspects are VERY central to BOTH Theravada and Mahayana branches of Buddhism.

Confusianism on the other hand... is what is the world "religion" that is most like the Qun... though the way the Qunari refer to the Qun almost as if it were a god has shades of Daoism as well... so it's kinda like the amalgamation of the two.
So to answer the OP's question, the Qun is kinda both.

[Sylvianus]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

It is without a doubt a religion. But all religions carry with them a philosophical core. There is no need for gods, spirits or anything in a religion. Just a creed. Which the Qun has. A religion is at it's core not mystical beliefs, but guidelines to how to live life. Common values. It's not so much understanding the world, as understanding other people.

So, political philosophies are religions? It is about as religious as communism, libertarianism or marxism.

Deism is seen as foolish, but it is tolerated in new converts.

1 - He is right.
2- The Qun is certainly not a political philosophy
3  The Qun is described, in DA2 and especially MOA, as a religion, called a religion, and that's pretty correct.

-------------------

 The Qun acts pretty much as a religion, with the same effect on people, by the spiritual power it inspires. That's the practice of worship, teaching, spiritual expectations as to give meaning to human life on earth. ( for example to destroy the chaos.)

A way of life and search for answers of the deepest questions of humanity and nature. Why I live, what is my place in the universe, to what ideals do I tender ? . It is not based on logic, or reason, like any religion, it is based mainly on the heart and the belief of a higher will. As Buddhism. Buddhism is considered a religion when it seems there is no mention of God or of divine nature.

No need for proof material, as the law of physics, to think that the creation of the universe is not simply a  fact of nature, and they must play a role.  Qunari are indoctrinated from birth. They do not have a choice to join or not the Qun.  When one of them question or reject that will, they are rejected and considered spiritually as sacrilegious or heretics, who must die, because their lives are an insult to the Qun. Also they decide to force other people to convert to their absolutist beliefs.

 Why Buddhism is seen as a religion? It's more a way of life though. No god, no divine nature, mostly precepts of life, questions, lifestyle, and what to do.

Religion is not necessarily to believe in a god or divine nature. For some, all this is a kind of fantasy, a cultural legacy of irrational beliefs. ( if I loose my sword, my soul is lost as the qun said )  it is a truth, lived in the interior of a man, in a deep and sincere faith, what I think that's the case for many qunari.

They do not think necessarily with logic, they try to make sense of their lives with something spiritual, more than a desire to simply live in community in a healthy way. They believe that nature has certain rules they must follow through beliefs and interpretations given by their kind of priests.

And for me the desire to convert other peoples (absolute refusal of the understanding of other cultures) show that it acts much like a religion. We see they have no desire for political power in Thedas, or human ambitions, or other, they meet a spiritual longing, a spiritual belief to me.


In any case, The Qun, obscurantist, is certainly not philosophy. The philosophy aims to enlighten, and elevation of man in thought, which is totally the opposite of Qun, you must not think, but to obey, to obey without thinking every order and thoughts and reflections arising from the qun.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 16 octobre 2011 - 05:12 .

[RPGamer13]

My opinion: it's equal parts Religion, way of life, and a philosophy.

Let's not add any adjectives.

[Sylvianus]

The Bible, the koran, give a way of behaving, a way of life, can we say that they are a philosophy ? It's equal parts of what you mentioned above too.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 16 octobre 2011 - 05:30 .

[stephen_dedalus]

I think, as RPGamer suggests, that the dichotomy between religion and political philosophy may be a false one, in most (but not necessarily all) cases. I suppose in theory it is possible to differentiate between the two, but in actual practice this distinction becomes difficult to maintain. See the "troubles" in Northern Ireland, recent cultural discourse on Islam and Christianity, etc.

Richard Dawkins tends to see the political half of the equation absorbing the religious half: for him, the violence between Catholics and Protestants is clearly political in nature, and religion becomes an ultimately superficial if convenient way of taking a complex political scenario and dividing it into two clearly delineated, diametrically opposed sides that can engage in indoctrination (as they do through the institution of religious schools).

Another example is the Liberation Theology movement, which turns the sacred texts of Judeo-Christianity into an occasion for reinterpreting "biblical history" through the lens of Marxist sociopolitics (see Terry Eagleton's book Reason, Faith, and Revolution). I suppose what I'm suggesting is that any widely influential cultural belief system in the real world is probably understandable as a fusion of religion and politics, and I see no reason why the same should not hold true in fiction.

[Sylvianus]

The nature of religion is not changed by its geopolitical implications, territorial or strategic.

The Qun, what is it ? As if it was, Islam what is it ? asked briefly by the op.

That is not because some political organizations or even religious use religion as a political pretext that the definition is changed. No one will say that islam is a a fusion of religion and politics, despite many geopolitical implications, etc.

Arab countries have formed the Arab League, from sharing the same religion, the same religious beliefs and not only these as well. But the nature of Islam is not changed in spite of their political group based on this sharing of the same belief. Islam is a religion, which also contains some other parts. ( way of life, philosophy, etc )

Religions, beliefs represented by fallible and mortal men, or structures or organizations, can do politics, but their nature is not changed because of that.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 16 octobre 2011 - 06:44 .

[AlexXIV]

Sylvianus wrote...

The nature of religion is not changed by its geopolitical implications, territorial or strategic.

The Qun, what is it ? As if it was, Islam what is it ? asked briefly by the op.

That is not because some political organizations or even religious use religion as a political pretext that the definition is changed. No one will say that islam is a a fusion of religion and politics, despite many geopolitical implications, etc.

Arab countries have formed the Arab League, from sharing the same religion, the same religious beliefs and not only these as well. But the nature of Islam is not changed in spite of their political group based on this sharing of the same belief. Islam is a religion, which also contains some other parts. ( way of life, philosophy, etc )

Religions, beliefs represented by fallible and mortal men, or structures or organizations, can do politics, but their nature is not changed because of that.

Ok I may make enemies but the Islam was actually created out of political reasons. Mohammed was more of a trader and politician and he copied many parts of it from the jew/christs. Just as the non-jews (and later christians) copied from the jews when it turned out their polytheism was a stupid idea in general. Religion has always been a means to keep people in check, to make sure they follow rules out of fear of an omnipotent force that would reward the faithful and punish the unbelievers. It's just a sort of enforcement of law and order really.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 16 octobre 2011 - 09:13 .

[stephen_dedalus]

Sylvianus wrote...

No one will say that islam is a a fusion of religion and politics[.]

The following list, which is by no means exhaustive, suggests otherwise:


Political Islam: religion and politics in the Arab world by
N. M. Ayubi

 

Islam as political religion: the future of an imperial faith
by Shabbir Akhtar

 

Awakening Islam: The Politics of Religious Dissent in
Contemporary Saudi Arabia by Stéphane Lacroix

 

Transnational Political Islam: Religion, Ideology, and Power,
edited by Azza Karam

Modifié par stephen_dedalus, 16 octobre 2011 - 09:17 .