69 réponses à ce sujet

[tklivory]

Corker wrote...

I've done speed play-throughs where I've ignored the majority of the "Board" quests after Lothering, as well as some side quests like "Something Wicked" (the Alienage orphanage).  (My Surana was very task-focused.  ) It didn't hurt me none, and my Wardens still finished at higher than 20th level.

Some of it can boil down to player skill, 'tis true.  I certainly can't defeat Flemeth at level 11 on Nightmare, but apparently some people can.  So if you are the kind of player who doesn't tweak the bejarnus out of your tactics and relies mostly on the PC to get the high-level baddies down, I could see where avoiding quests & XP would add up as a detriment over the course of the game.

[tklivory]

Not to get toooo off the main topic here, but I thought this comic was apropos:


(click for slightly larger version)
(original page is here)

I ran across this last year, and it still works, particularly for Bioware.  For instance, in the beginning when Flemeth offers you Morrigan's aid (granted, there is no reason to decline her aid), but you can't say no - just "yes" with varying degrees of enthusiasm.

Not as entertaining as the 'Hell' version of Bioware dialogue, though.

Modifié par tklivory, 18 octobre 2011 - 11:32 .

[MyNameIsPower]

Funny comic, especially the "in hell" Square Enix jab.

[BlackEmperor]

Corker wrote...

I've done speed play-throughs where I've ignored the majority of the "Board" quests after Lothering, as well as some side quests like "Something Wicked" (the Alienage orphanage).  (My Surana was very task-focused.  ) It didn't hurt me none, and my Wardens still finished at higher than 20th level.

Ah, I meant more like it would affect you no matter your roleplaying orientation. For example, a mage character might have a very strong inclination to avoid all Chantry board quests (except for perhaps ones that can be used nefariously, like Loghain's Push). But such a character would very likely be interested in helping the Mages Collective. The loss hits a variety of character persuasions.

From a gameplay perspective, you're right, they're totally unncessary--although if I was planning on taking my character into Awakening after Origins, it would probably bother me if I wasn't at least level 24. I'm also OCD about games and completing things (speaking of--I'm one playthrough away from acquring the Perfectionist achievement, which is something that I'm pretty sure only people with OCD would get excited about).

[BlackEmperor]

tklivory wrote...

And when you do reach the Harrowing Chamber, you still have to not use the Litany and wait for Irving to be turned into an abomination to acquire the Templars as allies in the final battle.  I remember one game where I did the Tower quest last of my Treaty quests, so my players were pretty ridiculously powerful by the time I got to the final battle of the Mage Tower.  Since I was RP'ing a very anti-mage character, I literally had to disable my party's tactics (except for healing, of course) and use my PC to kill the abominations as they were created until finally Irving was transformed.  Then I was able to enable my party to fight again and kill Uldred.  It was kind of bizarre.

This... is not actually true. You don't have to let all the mages be turned in order to get the templars in the final battle. Afterward in the conversation between Irving, Cullen, and Gregoir, all you have to do is choose the convo option, "If you let even one blood mage live, you'll regret it." Then Iriving volunteers for isolation, and you get templars.

This presents its own RP-issues though, in that after the fight you're still forced to help Irving down the stairs--an odd thing to be forced to do if you've said all along that all the mages in the tower must die. I'm surprised you're not given the option to use your standard issue Shanking Knife ™ to dispatch him, considering how many other people you can shank in this game.

Also, lawlz @ the comic.

[tklivory]

BlackEmperor wrote...

This... is not actually true. You don't have to let all the mages be turned in order to get the templars in the final battle. Afterward in the conversation between Irving, Cullen, and Gregoir, all you have to do is choose the convo option, "If you let even one blood mage live, you'll regret it." Then Iriving volunteers for isolation, and you get templars.

This presents its own RP-issues though, in that after the fight you're still forced to help Irving down the stairs--an odd thing to be forced to do if you've said all along that all the mages in the tower must die. I'm surprised you're not given the option to use your standard issue Shanking Knife ™ to dispatch him, considering how many other people you can shank in this game.

Also, lawlz @ the comic.

Well, that would have been nice to know. *facepalm* Oh, well.  Most boring fight ever.  I guess I just assumed as long as Irving lived, Greagoir would not send the Templars to fight at your side.  Ah, well, assumptions.  They make an ass out of you and ... mumptions.

Yup.  Shanking Knife ™ would have been preferable.  Why not kill the ebul mage on your own?  Ah, well.

[BlackEmperor]

What about the Landsmeet in terms of gameplay mechanics versus roleplaying--do they line up or do they contrast?

Thoughts? Reactions?

[tklivory]

BlackEmperor wrote...

What about the Landsmeet in terms of gameplay mechanics versus roleplaying--do they line up or do they contrast?

Thoughts? Reactions?

The Landsmeet - aaah, what an admixture.

On the one hand, it would be completely expected for Alistair to attend the Landsmeet, as a prominent member of the nobility will be putting him forth as a candidate for the throne due to his Theirin bloodline.

On the other hand, it makes *no* sense (from a realistic point of view) for the Warden to be the one directly confronting Loghain (or for bringing companions with him/her).  I can see the PC attending, but being the only one flinging accusations at him?

Also, why don't the Banns who know bad things about Loghain (Alfstanna, the father of the man rescued from Howe's dungeon, a freed Vaughan, the father of the boy rescued by the Crows, &c, &c) speak up *unless* the Warden does so?  That is a complete game mechanics choice there - they reward you for picking the 'right' options, but the Banns don't speak up unless you choose those options.  That kinda ruined the immersion, especially on Alfstanna's part - I just don't see any freakin' way she'd stay quiet about her brother if the PC happens to not bring it up.

And I know they're trying to speed through gameplay, but it always struck me as odd that (if you choose to execute him) Loghain's corpse is lying at your feet while you interrogate Anora and Alistair about which is the better candidate.  I mean, you'd think it would fluster Anora a bit, wouldn't you?

Also, why can't Dog fight Loghain?  (grumble, grumble...)

Those are just the thoughts at the top of my head.  I could probably write a whooooole lot more, but I will spare y'all.

[Bleachrude]

Biggest issue to me is how Riordan casually walks into the chamber...

I thought the Landsmeet met in a closed chamber with guards outside...

[BlackEmperor]

tklivory wrote...

On the other hand, it makes *no* sense (from a realistic point of view) for the Warden to be the one directly confronting Loghain (or for bringing companions with him/her).  I can see the PC attending, but being the only one flinging accusations at him?

Also, why don't the Banns who know bad things about Loghain (Alfstanna, the father of the man rescued from Howe's dungeon, a freed Vaughan, the father of the boy rescued by the Crows, &c, &c) speak up *unless* the Warden does so?  That is a complete game mechanics choice there - they reward you for picking the 'right' options, but the Banns don't speak up unless you choose those options.  That kinda ruined the immersion, especially on Alfstanna's part - I just don't see any freakin' way she'd stay quiet about her brother if the PC happens to not bring it up.

And I know they're trying to speed through gameplay, but it always struck me as odd that (if you choose to execute him) Loghain's corpse is lying at your feet while you interrogate Anora and Alistair about which is the better candidate.  I mean, you'd think it would fluster Anora a bit, wouldn't you?

Also, why can't Dog fight Loghain?  (grumble, grumble...)

Those are just the thoughts at the top of my head.  I could probably write a whooooole lot more, but I will spare y'all.

Loghain always rolls with his crew. Why wouldn't the warden? If someone were to try stop me from entering the Landsmeet chamber, I'd want to have my posse there so I can say, "Sten, tear his arms off."

From a gameplay perspective, the biggest issue I have with the Landsmeet is how ambiguous the number crunching going on behind the scenes is represented. You can have all the nobles and the Revered Mother speak up against Loghain, but if you don't have Anora's support, still lose the argument. Almost everyone says they're with you, but then the game (via Eamon) tells you that you've somehow lost. (Really wish there was an option to say to Eamon: "How, exactly?") It makes sense that not having Anora's support would be the deciding factor. The pull she has is just not well represented in that scene.

Anora is always cool as ice. The fact that nothing flusters her (or that she at least never allows herself to show it) doesn't surprise me.

As contrived as the situation leading up to the Landsmeet feels from a logical point of view, I think the extraordinary circumstances that lead to you being the one stating your arguments and dueling Loghain make sense. Your outsider status is what allows you to be a unifying force for all the others that have grievances.

[BlackEmperor]

Bleachrude wrote...

Biggest issue to me is how Riordan casually walks into the chamber...

I thought the Landsmeet met in a closed chamber with guards outside...

I'm assuming he showed up early to get a good seat, and is "off stage" (so to speak) during the proceedings, while the warden and his/her posse shows up fashionably late in order to make a dramatic entrance.

[Joy Divison]

BlackEmperor wrote...

From a gameplay perspective, the biggest issue I have with the Landsmeet is how ambiguous the number crunching going on behind the scenes is represented. You can have all the nobles and the Revered Mother speak up against Loghain, but if you don't have Anora's support, still lose the argument. Almost everyone says they're with you, but then the game (via Eamon) tells you that you've somehow lost. (Really wish there was an option to say to Eamon: "How, exactly?") It makes sense that not having Anora's support would be the deciding factor. The pull she has is just not well represented in that scene.

Is this right?  It's been awhile since I've played, but I recall not having Anora's support and still winning the Landsmeet a couple of times.

[Addai]

Joy Divison wrote...

BlackEmperor wrote...

From a gameplay perspective, the biggest issue I have with the Landsmeet is how ambiguous the number crunching going on behind the scenes is represented. You can have all the nobles and the Revered Mother speak up against Loghain, but if you don't have Anora's support, still lose the argument. Almost everyone says they're with you, but then the game (via Eamon) tells you that you've somehow lost. (Really wish there was an option to say to Eamon: "How, exactly?") It makes sense that not having Anora's support would be the deciding factor. The pull she has is just not well represented in that scene.

Is this right?  It's been awhile since I've played, but I recall not having Anora's support and still winning the Landsmeet a couple of times.

You can still win the LM without Anora's support, but you need to get Wulff's vote by talking to him beforehand then mentioning the threat of the Blight, doing the Crows quest line to get that extra vote, and/or have Vaughn live.  I never let Vaughn live but still have won without Anora's support.  Also don't talk about Cailan in the debate.  If the Warden loses, the deciding factor are the minor banns who speak at the very end.  They'll either say "I'm with Loghain" or "I'm with the Warden" and a bunch of people cheer either way.  I guess that is meant to show the "silent majority."

Modifié par Addai67, 24 octobre 2011 - 03:43 .

[Joy Divison]

Ok that makes sense. I typically do the Crows, talk to Wulff, and murder-knife Vaughn. Does anyone let that scum live?

[tklivory]

@ Joy - Yes. From a roleplaying perspective, I could see a HN and DN letting him live since those characters would be raised with certain viewpoints of political compromises. It would be more likely for an ambitious DN (a character that chooses to kill Trian on purpose for the purpose of becoming the heir to the throne) to free Vaughan for the promise of support in the Landsmeet, since dwarf politics make the Landsmeet look like a walk in the park. Also, from an RP POV, only the City Elves would know directly what kind of person Vaughan is. Anything else would depend on the conversation (though he definitely does have several offensive lines) and your PC's reaction to them.

I do know that Zevran always disapproves if you free him, though.

Modifié par tklivory, 24 octobre 2011 - 04:07 .

[Joy Divison]

If you talk to the other elf in the dungeon, he basically tells about Vaughn.

I agree from a RP perspective, a warden might let him live (i.e. anything to defeat the blight), but let's just say doing so feels too icky even though it isn't real.

[BlackEmperor]

Joy Divison wrote...

BlackEmperor wrote...

From a gameplay perspective, the biggest issue I have with the Landsmeet is how ambiguous the number crunching going on behind the scenes is represented. You can have all the nobles and the Revered Mother speak up against Loghain, but if you don't have Anora's support, still lose the argument. Almost everyone says they're with you, but then the game (via Eamon) tells you that you've somehow lost. (Really wish there was an option to say to Eamon: "How, exactly?") It makes sense that not having Anora's support would be the deciding factor. The pull she has is just not well represented in that scene.

Is this right?  It's been awhile since I've played, but I recall not having Anora's support and still winning the Landsmeet a couple of times.

I said you can have everyone speak up for you and still lose without Anora's support, not that you will lose without Anora's support. Sorry, I should have been more clear. It is indeed possible to win without her if you get the maximum number of votes possible, including freeing Vaughan and doing the Crow quests, and making the right arguments at the Landsmeet. I did so on my most recent playthrough, and it took me several tries before I stumbled on the right combination of arguments that would work.

Which only further underlines my point of how obtuse it is. If you go this route but lose, it looks weird to have everyone speaking out in your favor, only to watch as the "silent majority" (consisting of what appears to be one guy and his five drinking buddies throwing their thoughts in last minute) crashes the whole thing.

[Boutte]

BlackEmperor wrote...

tklivory wrote...

Unless they had subtituted a different quest line - gathering the Banns prior to the Landsmeet, for example, to be a quest, rather than doing the Urn of Sacred Ashes.  Of course something like that would take additonal development time, additional resources, etc - and probably wasn't conceived by the writers.

True. Same goes for saving Redcliffe. If there was more to it that fighting zombies with names, it'd probably be more interesting to go the route of not saving it. I might actually try it then. It's just a matter of what you want to create with the time and resources you have. You can only have quests branch out in so many ways.

Redcliffe is an excellent example of RP affecting game mechanics.  However, I don't see it necessarily opting out of playing the game so much as following a character's choice to not walk down that particular path at a fork in the road.  If you choose not to do the Chantry board quests, are you opting out of gameplay?  Possibly, but if you're RPing a character who refuses to help the Chantry in any way, it is an opt out that makes sense in line with the character.  Sure, you lose out on XP/items/sotry, but it is an option.

It's not just the Chantry quests though, it's also the Blackstone Irregulars and the Mage's Collective. It's a broad enough of a subtraction that it's more likely to hit you no matter what type of character you're playing. It wouldn't be so bad if the quests that appeared on those boards instead showed up elsewhere, but a lot of them don't. In particular, not being able to get the Blackstone Irregular quests here locks you out of the final quest for that series. You end up feeling cheated because, if you're playing for the first time and haven't read the wiki or something, you have no idea just how much gameplay you're missing out on (since those boards aren't there pre-nightfall attack). It feels like you're being unfairly punished for something the game was perfectly willing to let you do.

It's not like how you lose out on access to Varathorn if you side with the werewolves, because you can reasonably assume that the "kill all the elves" option includes Varathorn. And, well, everyone else in that camp.

I guess short answer is--they should've just made it so those board quests show up elsewhere. Let the evil characters have their fun with abandoning Redcliffe.

The beauty of DA:O is that you can do as much (or as little) of the game as you wish *except* where game mechanics and RP collide and force the Treaty/Eamon/Landsmeet quests. Granted, by this line of reasoning, you could opt out of any of the major quests as well, but why not have a "you suck, you shoulda done that" kind of ending where Archive actually wins because you couldn't get your lazy ass around to all the disparate parts of Fereldan and gather your army?  And I would have seen this a *brilliant* final b**** slap to a player who decided not to wake Eamon and go it alone.  (aside from the screams of people reloading old saves, that is )

I was just going to bring up how you could have a main quest opt-out that gave you an auto-fail result. But from an RP perspective, giving up on one any one of those treaties for the sake of time could appear reasonable. You're worried about taking a couple extra weeks to go to the mages tower to request help from the mages? Or all the time spent searching for the ashes? What about all the time you spend scouring the Deep Roads looking for a paragon to put a king on the throne? Surely that comes across as just as much of a crazy waste of time. That's the problem with allowing these kinds of choices. It's disingenuous to have a game that says, "Hurry up! A Blight is coming!" but also says, "You lose! You should've taken the time to do everything."

On a side note, a game that did do something like this was the first Golden Sun game for the GBA. After an initial starting quest that establishes the story and characters (basically the equivalent of an origin story) a major disaster happens, which sets the stage for the classic "hero's call to action" where you're given the option: will you try to save the world? Yes / No.

And it's a legitimate option to choose "No." At which point you walk away, the screen freezes, turns black and white, and you get an epilogue basically saying, "And so the world began to slide toward its inevitable destruction." Done. Game over.

But then it prompts you, "Hey, do you want to go back to the part right before you said no?" Which makes it not really much of a choice. It's just an illusion of a choice. But no more of an illusion of a choice then if not doing all the treaties in Origins means you automatically lose.

Yeah! I hate that! I've gone far as to throw AoE spell at them on to discover I have to go and talk to them first.

edit(: I quoted the wrong post. I meant to comment on the post about having to talk to bosses before you fight them.)

Modifié par Boutte, 08 décembre 2011 - 03:39 .

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Joy Divison wrote...

Ok that makes sense. I typically do the Crows, talk to Wulff, and murder-knife Vaughn. Does anyone let that scum live?

Nope can't do it. Being a victim of crimes such as his, I have a very personal hatred for scum like him and thoroughly enjoy using the murder knife on him

[tklivory]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Ok that makes sense. I typically do the Crows, talk to Wulff, and murder-knife Vaughn. Does anyone let that scum live?

Nope can't do it. Being a victim of crimes such as his, I have a very personal hatred for scum like him and thoroughly enjoy using the murder knife on him

Oh, I dunno.  There's something fun about taking his money and then just leaving him in the cell to rot.  For one of my city elves who was a ranger, I RP'd a big ol' smile, a spit in the face, and then the gift of a cuddly cellmate: a lovely spider bigger than he was. 

Ah, good times...

[ShimmeringDjinn]

tklivory wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Ok that makes sense. I typically do the Crows, talk to Wulff, and murder-knife Vaughn. Does anyone let that scum live?

Nope can't do it. Being a victim of crimes such as his, I have a very personal hatred for scum like him and thoroughly enjoy using the murder knife on him

Oh, I dunno.  There's something fun about taking his money and then just leaving him in the cell to rot.  For one of my city elves who was a ranger, I RP'd a big ol' smile, a spit in the face, and then the gift of a cuddly cellmate: a lovely spider bigger than he was. 

Ah, good times...

You can do that?....I didn't know.
*Shrugs* still I'd rather just kill him. Gives me great satisfaction knowing that, even though my personal attacker was never caught, I can at least rid Thedas of one of his kind......Hurrah for elven women everywhere lol

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 08 décembre 2011 - 08:49 .

[tklivory]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

You can do that?....I didn't know.
*Shrugs* still I'd rather just kill him. Gives me great satisfaction knowing that, even though my personal attacker was never caught, I can at least rid Thedas of one of his kind......Hurrah for elven women everywhere lol

In the game, that's certainly the most direct fashion of justice.  Still, whenever I write or RP that scene, I like to... imagine other ways...

It still is kinda fun to hear him yell at you when you tell him that you've got the money but you won't let him out.  I don't have access to my toolset to check the dialogue, but I remember laughing the first time I saw it.

Bottom line: he don't get to come outta dat cell.   And there was much rejoicing!

[ShimmeringDjinn]

tklivory wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

You can do that?....I didn't know.
*Shrugs* still I'd rather just kill him. Gives me great satisfaction knowing that, even though my personal attacker was never caught, I can at least rid Thedas of one of his kind......Hurrah for elven women everywhere lol

In the game, that's certainly the most direct fashion of justice.  Still, whenever I write or RP that scene, I like to... imagine other ways...

It still is kinda fun to hear him yell at you when you tell him that you've got the money but you won't let him out.  I don't have access to my toolset to check the dialogue, but I remember laughing the first time I saw it.

Bottom line: he don't get to come outta dat cell.   And there was much rejoicing!

Lol, I'm almost tempted to try it on my current play through. But I guess I'll have to see how Neria feels by that point in the game 

[Morwen Eledhwen]

tklivory wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

You can do that?....I didn't know.
*Shrugs* still I'd rather just kill him. Gives me great satisfaction knowing that, even though my personal attacker was never caught, I can at least rid Thedas of one of his kind......Hurrah for elven women everywhere lol

In the game, that's certainly the most direct fashion of justice.  Still, whenever I write or RP that scene, I like to... imagine other ways...

It still is kinda fun to hear him yell at you when you tell him that you've got the money but you won't let him out.  I don't have access to my toolset to check the dialogue, but I remember laughing the first time I saw it.

Bottom line: he don't get to come outta dat cell.   And there was much rejoicing!

Zev also approves whether you rob him or kill him. I think it was actually my Dalish (4th playthrough) who figured out that using him as an ATM was an option. In the playthroughs before that, my STABBITY STAB STAB reaction kicked in way too fast.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

tklivory wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

You can do that?....I didn't know.
*Shrugs* still I'd rather just kill him. Gives me great satisfaction knowing that, even though my personal attacker was never caught, I can at least rid Thedas of one of his kind......Hurrah for elven women everywhere lol

In the game, that's certainly the most direct fashion of justice.  Still, whenever I write or RP that scene, I like to... imagine other ways...

It still is kinda fun to hear him yell at you when you tell him that you've got the money but you won't let him out.  I don't have access to my toolset to check the dialogue, but I remember laughing the first time I saw it.

Bottom line: he don't get to come outta dat cell.   And there was much rejoicing!

Zev also approves whether you rob him or kill him. I think it was actually my Dalish (4th playthrough) who figured out that using him as an ATM was an option. In the playthroughs before that, my STABBITY STAB STAB reaction kicked in way too fast.

I noticed Zevran approves of the kill. He clearly hates rapists as much as I