69 réponses à ce sujet

[tklivory]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...
I noticed Zevran approves of the kill. He clearly hates rapists as much as I

Yes, he is ridiculously awesome that way...

[Wulfram]

I let him live once. I didn't pick the right dialogue options with him or Soris for the Warden to learn he was anything other than some guy Howe had stuck in the dungeons.

[Glorfindel709]

Here's my view of it - Bann Teagan organizes the entire Ferelden civil war in the time it takes you to leave Redcliffe and to actually do the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest line. And let's be fair here... that takes some influence. I think that if Arl Eamon were to not survive, Teagan would stand a reasonable chance of being able to organize the Landsmeet... assuming of course the Warden agrees to do the mucking about for evidence.

Not to mention I believe I heard a few times people suspecting Eamon's reasons for calling the Landsmeet and putting forward Alistair (aka making himself more powerful.) Teagan from the start has been Anti-Loghain in both word and action, not just underhanded political manuevering that Eamon is apparently well known for.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Wulfram wrote...

I let him live once. I didn't pick the right dialogue options with him or Soris for the Warden to learn he was anything other than some guy Howe had stuck in the dungeons.

I let him live before too. BUT it was before I played as a city elf. Since I've played that Origin however, I have yet to let my PC allow him to live.
In my book anyone who commits a sex crime is.....non redeemable, whether they are fictional or otherwise.
Murder I can understand .......but sex crimes I cannot.

[tklivory]

Well, there's the reason the Bannhammer has such a rabid following. That cute little braid isn't the only reason.

In all seriousness, I've always thought that Teagan was a far better option for either the throne directly or as a replacement for Eamon: he is the only person with the guts to stand up to Loghain (even though the PC doesn't actually know that yet), he doesn't have the political 'disadvantage' of being married to an Orlesian nobleman's daughter, he obviously knows how to be a leader, and he is willing to sacrifice himself for that which must be done (he didn't leave Redcliffe when things seemed hopeless, and he goes with Isolde for honor and as a distraction). A *far* better choice than Eamon.

At least give us the choice, Bioware. We can choose between Bhelen and Harrowmont, why not Eamon and Teagan? *harrumph*

*grump* Why are we stuck with Eamon?

[Cobwebmaster]

Very good point tkivory I don't understand why Eamon's character has such influence in the kingdom. Presumably it had something to do with the inheritance thing. The story doesn't really explain which Teyrn appointed him unless of course it was one of the ones which were phased out. Talking of Teyrn's I like playing the Human Noble and the Couslands really get stiffed. Even when you save the country from the Archdemon you get a huge chunk of your land sequestered by the crown for the Grey Wardens. Poor old Fergus, his wife, son, father and mother murdered, his sibling a Grey Warden, and his teyrnir pretty much cut in half by the crown with all his percentage income from sea trade via Amaranthine gone forever.Overnight impoverishment = civli war - again! Doesn't  really make sense when there should now be a blood feud betweeen the Couslands, and the Howe's and the MacTirs. Pity Bann Teagan's not a candidate for the Crown. Even if you depose Anora you still end up getting shafted as even shoulfd you get a cut of the Guerin teyrnir, the crown still dives with one hand while taking with the other, a real odd end result which to my mind negs another episode. Soldier's Peak gets mothballed and disappears completely from the story. Having the DLC and playing it I expected that to be integral to any expansion. Instead it becomes sidelined.

Modifié par Cobwebmaster, 10 décembre 2011 - 03:52 .

[tklivory]

Yeah, in a country where Banns have fights over trees, you'd expect a blood feud would have been par for the course. And I still maintain that, since Anora has no blood right to the throne, that her claim is equal or lesser to Eamon/Teagan/Warden Cousland's claim to the throne but those aren't options. GAME MECHANICS! *Harrumph*

And I wanted more Soldier's Peak in Awakenings, myself, but I don't know when Soldier's Peak was released compared to Awakenings' release date...

Modifié par tklivory, 10 décembre 2011 - 05:07 .

[Bleachrude]

Doesn't the arl of Amaranthine of still answer to Fergus even after the arling is given to the wardens?

[actionhero112]

I don't like coercion. I think it breaks immersion. I do get what it is supposed to do, which is add extra dialogue and make dialogue choices easier. But some of the things you can persuade people are just ridiculous and make me laugh.

Landry:I saw you at Ostagar, you killed my friend and good king Cailan, I demand satisfaction ser

(Persuade) You did not see me at Ostagar

Landry: I did not see you at Ostagar. Good day.

The only way I can keep the immersion factor is roleplaying as a lost Jedi, who uses his jedi mind trick to convince people, " These aren't the nugs you are looking for" and other assorted nonsense.

Also I would say the cessation of life is more unforgivable than a crime of rape. I mean if you consider that murder is the snuffing out of everything that person will do in the future. For instance, I would rather be raped than dead. Because then I would never see my father's face when I graduate college and am the first in our family to do so. Stuff like that is important to me.

But then again, sexual crimes vs murder is off the table in this discussion because Vaughan kills and rapes with impunity. He doesn't specialize. Though I don't blame Vaughan so much as I blame his absentee of a father. Some fault has to come on Vaughan of course, but whoever raised him to be such a monster should also be at fault.

Also Eamon is teh firstborn. That holds much weight in succession lines.

Modifié par actionhero112, 10 décembre 2011 - 08:02 .

[Cobwebmaster]

Bleachrude wrote...

Doesn't the arl of Amaranthine of still answer to Fergus even after the arling is given to the wardens?

The odd thing about this is that the Crown (in the form of either Anora or Alastair) gifts it to the wardens after the death of the Archdemon. This means that the KIng/Queen has decided to not to fully reinstate the Couslands lands and titles including any vassal Arlings and simply took the opportunity to expand the Crowns direct control of land property and trade. This was to my mind a typical Mac Tir move. At the point of the epilogue the Couslands lands had been forfeit to the Crown (why isn't clearly explained) who saw fit to appoint Howe as the  Teyrn. The Crown of course with the death of Howe is at liberty to dispense the Arlings and Teyrnir as they see fit. It isn't really explained though why another promotion to any of the Arlings or the Teynir is not made immediately, or for that matter why ,(as Action Hero 112 mentions), Howe's son was not immediately recalled to take up his father's post Loghain could have won a lot of support that way

As for the Wardens the award of Amaranthine to them is a puzzle to me. Amaranthine is in the north east of the kingdom strategically ill placed to defend against an incursion by darkspawn which logically would emanate initially from the wilds to the South. Even Soldier's Peak is a bit far north to be anything but a harsh climatical training ground. Ostagar on the other hand is a ruin and the crown loses nothing by giving that away and gains from the installation of the wardens there. The stability they would bring to the region would allow the growth of settlements as a precurcor to eventual occupation  and expansion into the southern lands currently overrun by wild nomads, bandits and general ne'er do wells. The Chantry would be pleased as it gives them the opportunity to convert a few more unbelievers and hunt down apostates

I've always assumed the the Wardens job was to place themseves between the darkspawn and humans, elves, and dwarves. They can hardly do that if they are behind most of them. The other thing of course is that as they no longer have any griffons, it's  going to be even more difficult to bring down a flying dragon
 

Modifié par Cobwebmaster, 21 décembre 2011 - 10:12 .

[GavrielKay]

I thought the darkspawn could begin a blight from anywhere. The deep roads criss-cross under Thedas extensively. This one came from the Wilds by dumb luck as far as I remember. Plus, with anywhere from zero to hundreds of years between blights, they might as well set up somewhere comfortable.

Does anyone know for sure if the Ferelden system is truly feudal (with banns tithing to arls tithing to teryns) or if the title is just indicative of the amount of land and thus wealth/power the noble claims? Because if it is truly feudal, then granting the arling of Amaranthine to the Wardens makes no difference to Teyrn Cousland other than who "signs" the check when the taxes are paid upwards.

Edit:  spelling

Modifié par GavrielKay, 22 décembre 2011 - 06:56 .

[Cobwebmaster]

GavrielKay wrote...

I thought the darkspawn could begin a blight from anywhere. The deep roads criss-cross under Thedas extensively. This one came from the Wilds by dumb luck as far as I remember. Plus, with anywhere from zero to hundreds of years between blights, they might as well set up somewhere comfortable.

Does anyone know for sure if the Ferelden system is truly feudal (with banns tithing to arls tithing to teryns) or if the title is just indicative of the amount of land and thus wealth/power the noble claims? Because if it is truly feudal, then granting the arling of Amaranthine to the Wardens makes no difference to Teyrn Cousland other than who "signs" the check when the taxes are paid upwards.

Edit:  spelling

Agreed that Darkspawn can spring from anywhere and often do in small bands. However, my understanding is that when an Archdemon arises the incursion of the horde is planned. With an overpowering intelligence co-ordinating efforts, it does not make sense to invade an area where initially you could be surrounded by armed forces who would annihilate you. At the very least  you will need to establish some sort of beachead. Much easier to do that in the wilds .The logical choice is to tunnel out into a staging area where logistics are achievable with the minimum of risk. The Grey Wardens ability to detect the presence of darkspawn is a very short range radar. While they can pick up signals from an Archdemon I'm not sure that they can home in on it. Darkspawn emerging in northern or central Ferelden stand a pretty good chance of being discovered by non Wardens as well. Emerging in the wilds is less risk loaded. The massacre at Ostagar was achieved by overwhelming numbers with some help from an obessive compulsive betrayal. It is not clear whether even with Loghains forces added to the fray whther anything but a draw would have been achieved in the battle with the Ferelden forces being forced to withdraw fighting a rearguard action. Victory against the darkspawn was I think unachievable with the forces at King Cailan's disposal

 Using a very broad brushstroke, feudalism is a system for ordering society and relationships around the ownership of land in exchange for labour or service. In that sense Ferelden is feudal with the Crown (as per The Silver Knight's conquest) owning all land and granting fiefdoms and satrapy's to whom it choose. This creates a sort of Warrior nobility (lords or feudal tenants) who pay a tithe to the crown, fiefs (hereditary lands) and vassals, a word that describes lords and their tenants or  freeholders, farmers etc. The king provides protection to the lords through military might, and they in turn, to their tenants, and servants for services rendered

[BlackEmperor]

actionhero112 wrote...

I don't like coercion. I think it breaks immersion. I do get what it is supposed to do, which is add extra dialogue and make dialogue choices easier. But some of the things you can persuade people are just ridiculous and make me laugh.

Landry:I saw you at Ostagar, you killed my friend and good king Cailan, I demand satisfaction ser

(Persuade) You did not see me at Ostagar

Landry: I did not see you at Ostagar. Good day.

The only way I can keep the immersion factor is roleplaying as a lost Jedi, who uses his jedi mind trick to convince people, " These aren't the nugs you are looking for" and other assorted nonsense.

This was actually my exact reaction when I first used Coercion in this game--i.e. "Holy crap! Coercion is like a jedi mind trick!"

I was playing the mage origin and had just emerged from the basement quite literally dressed from head to toe with stolen stuff.

Irving: "Did you take anything while you were down there?"
Me: *Waves Hand* "No."
Irving: "Okay, I believe you."

(Sweet! Free staff!)

Although there are some Coercion options that you will fail no matter what your coercion skill or cunning score is in order to reinforce the fact that you can never be 100% believable in everything, there are some instances like this one where the game mechanics clearly require a complete suspension of disbelief.

I will say this though: a lot of the dialogue options that are opened up to you if you have a high cunning score (meaning they are directly tied to Cunning, not the Coercion skill) are woven expertly into the dialogue and present some interesting turns in conversations that would not otherwise be available to you. Those, I think, are extraordinarily well done.

[tklivory]

@ BlackEmperor: I don't remember the exact words, but my favorite Cunning dialogue is an additional line with Flemeth, when she asks, "What do you believe?". I think it's one of the more difficult Cunning options to get because you need such a high Cunning so early in the game to see it. (and of course I can't find it in the toolset easily *sigh* Cunning fail for me, I suppose)

Although the funniest use of Cunning and Coercion come in the Slim Coudry quests, especially the woman in the Wonders of Thedas. *waves hand* you will take your clothes off. I am a healer. "all right"

Modifié par tklivory, 24 décembre 2011 - 04:51 .

[BlackEmperor]

Was the cunning response with Flemeth along the lines of--"I believe you're powerful and possibly dangerous"? Most recent playthrough was a cunning rogue. I think I used that, but I cannot remember if it was tied to cunning or not.

There's two great cunning options that immediately come to mind. One comes up when you return to camp after you've chosen to slay Connor. Alistair will say something like (paraphrasing here): "The Arl deserves better than this."

Cunning allows you to intuit what's actually going on: "So this isn't about me killing Connor. This is about you and Eamon."

Spot on.

The other that comes to mine is when interrogating "Weylan" in your search for Brother Genitivi. Cunning allows you to pick up on all the contradictions and holes in his story, which prompts him to dig himself in deeper and deeper.

I've never tried convincing the mark in Slim Coudry's quest line to disrobe. I usually only do that quest line if playing a cunning rogue, and that means it's easy enough to just pick-pocket the sword outright. Thinking back on it now, I cannot fathom why I didn't try the more obviously hilarious option.

[tklivory]

Yeah, that's the line - it's definitely tied to the cunning level, as I never got it unless I played a cunning rogue that I'd pumped points into cunning exclusively.

There are several Cunning lines I prefer to use in other situations. In additon to the ones you listed, another one I remembered is when dealing with Genitivi's 'assistant' in Denerim. You can easily avoid the whole useless trip to Lake Calenhad. Since I usually play cunning rogues, I was surprised with my warrior when he couldn't use cunning and I had to force a confrontation by going into the back room.

And I would totally recommend the Cunning use in Slim's quests. The woman in the store is the funniest, although you don't *have* to strip her naked. The guy with the key to the chests is also funny, since you can use cunning to like be his *best friend evar* and steal the key that way.

Of course, if you do that, you have fight like 50 guards in a random encounter in an alley. But funny options are funny.

Modifié par tklivory, 25 décembre 2011 - 03:06 .

[Cobwebmaster]

tklivory wrote...

Yeah, that's the line - it's definitely tied to the cunning level, as I never got it unless I played a cunning rogue that I'd pumped points into cunning exclusively.

There is another line that pops up in that exchange with Flemeth, where one of the response options is something along the lines of "Believed or not some things just have to be accepted". The only time I think I've ever got that is if I have been an elf. Flemeth's response is (from memory) "And that's the reply I was hoping for" An open mind with a brain not made entirley of mush!"

[Cobwebmaster]

Another issue which isn't covered is what happens to Loghain's troops after he is either executed or joins the Grey Wardens? We have to assume that they are absorbed into the Ferelden forces. Is there an explanation somewhere/ Are they left in Guaren on the eastern coast or are we to assume that they are all wiped out before the Wardens forces can arrive in Denerim?

[GavrielKay]

actionhero112 wrote...
I don't like coercion. I think it breaks immersion. I do get what it is supposed to do, which is add extra dialogue and make dialogue choices easier. But some of the things you can persuade people are just ridiculous and make me laugh.

I always took coercion to be along the lines of specialized training in reading people and learning persuasive speach techniques.  Like modern debate skills and training spies to lie convincingly.  It's not immersion breaking if you think of it that way. 

Your Warden has devoted some time to learning how to get things done with words rather than sharp objects

[Cobwebmaster]

GavrielKay wrote...

actionhero112 wrote...
I don't like coercion. I think it breaks immersion. I do get what it is supposed to do, which is add extra dialogue and make dialogue choices easier. But some of the things you can persuade people are just ridiculous and make me laugh.

I always took coercion to be along the lines of specialized training in reading people and learning persuasive speach techniques.  Like modern debate skills and training spies to lie convincingly.  It's not immersion breaking if you think of it that way. 

Your Warden has devoted some time to learning how to get things done with words rather than sharp objects

No matter what type of character I played I tended to rely on coercion rather than intimidation in principle. For a warrior Dwarf or Dalish elf that seems a little contradictory in RPG terms as with the insular dwarves and the harshly resentful and embittered Dalish I don't really see how diplomacy would be a sort of gut reaction. However for Human Nobles,  CE's, and particularly mages I see that as being an essential part of their persona. For human nobles persuasiveness would be born out of necessity rather than survival from a CE point of view, However I could not escape the feeling of being regarded as insignificant on using such a dialogue response. One particular exchange that speings to mind, revolves around the encounter with the opportunist trader in Lothering, where a persuasive solution whilst still earning the gratitude of the chantry triggers a somewhat contemptuous response rather than a subservient or passive one. After all you are a warden and by tradition entitled to at least a modicum of respect at the very least 

Modifié par Cobwebmaster, 14 janvier 2012 - 09:03 .