185 réponses à ce sujet

[TheCreeper]

Something I have been wondering about, suppose mages somehow manage to win the whole Mage-Templar war, and I mean win win, not the chantry managing to come to a peace agreement that slightly favors the mages, what would it look like? I mean sure Fenris and others claim that it will lead to a new tevinter imperium with a mage ending hawke as it's emperor/empress, but really the tevinter imperium is a pretty unique situation because all the noble families have more magic in them than the amells, and Amell family is the only mentioned noble family that has (outside of  Tevinter) a lot of magic in it, and I don't think people even in a fairly mage friendly country like ferelden would be cool with blood mages in power.  So what would be the likely outcome of a mage victory in your guy's opinion?

[TJPags]

Well, in the short term:  Lots of Dead Templars, dead mages as well.  Probably a lot of dead innocents - collateral damage and all that.

In the middle term:  Continued fighting, since the Chantry itself needs to be demolished for the mages to be as free as they wish.  Likely, that would involve more dead people who aren't Templars, since many nobles, and probably a lot of regular people, aren't going to take kindly to watching their Chanters and all killed just for preaching what is, to most people, their religion.

In the long term:  a world with either no religion or a new religion entirely.  With no check on mages, parents will have to find teachers for their mage children from among those mages still alive, or risk their child doing things by accident - or intent - which injure people or property, and being sued and/or tossed out on their arses because of it. 

And who knows what the mage-teacher might demand in exchange for that teaching - goods, services, money, land.  After all, what wouldn't a family do to make sure their child can handle themselves safely? 

Or perhaps a family with nothing, afraid that their child, instead of harmlessly setting a chair in the kitchen on fire, might do that to some other child who is taunting them, fearing that the village they live in may turn on them, kill them, force them out into nothingness - that family may just abandon the mage child to ensure the safety and well being of their other children.

So, yea, sounds like a lovely place.

[DPSSOC]

If the mages won-won it would be a second Imperium. The nobility problem would be dealt with because the mages would become the nobility with existing noble families downgraded or outright destroyed. That's the problem with pretty much every uprising of the oppressed, after they win they're kinda pricks.

If however they don't have the means to continue conquest after wiping out the only force that can effectively challenge them I see setting up a mage homeland similar to the Dales where they will build up their power and eventually (read inevitably) begin conquering the essentially unprotected nations.

[Zanallen]

It would look like nothing. I don't think the mages have a chance in hell of a complete victory. They are taking on the major religion of the known world. Their best chance would be to sue for peace or flee to a new land where they can find acceptance.

[Alyka]

I think the mages would break off into groups; some wanting to rule nations (eg: Tevinter), and some who oppose this idea.There would be constant war between them.The chantry would go to great lengths to try and gain control, making the people realize just how corrupt their order has become.I see nothing but war on all sides until it hits an apex and someone or something intervenes.

Modifié par Alyka, 17 octobre 2011 - 01:12 .

[TheCreeper]

That is one of the major problems with this conflict, too many different groups on both sides. I suppose a mage victory across Thedas is impossible outside tevinter (or a new group that is probably just as bad) seizing control of most of the region. Probably going to be too many mages wanting too many different things to form a united front, although the templars sound like they are hardly better when it comes to unity.

[Big I]

Independent Circles being established like the one in Ferelden or the possible apostate one in Orzammar. The Circle using it's wealth from enchanted items to become an economic power. Enchanters advising the various monarchs of Thedas like Wynne can potentially do in DA:O. And eventually mages holding political office and power and lands, like the Warden as Chancellor/Teyrn of Gwaren or Hawke as Viscount.

[CrimsonZephyr]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Independent Circles being established like the one in Ferelden or the possible apostate one in Orzammar. The Circle using it's wealth from enchanted items to become an economic power. Enchanters advising the various monarchs of Thedas like Wynne can potentially do in DA:O. And eventually mages holding political office and power and lands, like the Warden as Chancellor/Teyrn of Gwaren or Hawke as Viscount.

It will probably end up being this, with the addition of mages selling out mages for political gains. Those that integrate themselves into society will probably be more internally draconian about blood magic than the Templars ever were (establishing a secret police, prisons, and liberally using torture on mage suspects, but being benevolent with the people in general), if only for good PR, and because of the war, they will be heavily militarized, with every mage being required to serve for the majority of their lives as a battle mage.

[LobselVith8]

Given how mages were able to emancipate themselves from being in servitude to the Chantry and the Order of Templars across the continent, I think the Circle mages stand a chance of bringing about a future where the Circles of Magi are autonomous if they won the war against the templar rebels who are hunting them down.

Genitivi noted in his historical account of the New Exalted Marches that the Circle mages were the "greatest advantage" of the Chantry led armies, and Duncan notes that a mage is useful when it comes to large groups of darkspawn. I think there's a reasonable chance that the mages can maintain their freedom from the Chantry and its templars.

Given how many free mages exist in societies outside of the Andrastian nations, where the mages don't try to emulate the Imperium, I think the mages might try to fulfill Aldenon's dream of mages and non-mages living in freedom from a system he saw as slavery.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

The only way I see the Mages able to win this battle is if they flee into the Tevinter Imperium. In that country you'll have a system that is already built around mages and with all the mages in Thedas converging into that one location you'd have an army that I don't see anyone being able to stop.

[Sir JK]

What the world would look like after the mage victory. It is a good question. It depends on both what the mages do in the war and what what they do afterwards.

Key I think. Is... what would the mages settle for?

On average, the people of Thedas are poor farmers. At most the need they have from the mages is healthcare and blasting the odd stump off. A mage could probably find some employment, but at best as a farmhand. Alternatively he could be some wandering healer. Both cases would make you poor and rootless. So the question is... would the mages settle for this?
And more importantly, the mages who have lived in circles. Slept in silk beds, communal dinners every evening. Ale straight from the keg. Had access to all the study material in the world.
Will they humbly accept the life as a farm hand?

Some might point out they could make a living in cities instead. Could they? The odd healer here and there, sure. But what does city folk need mages for beyond that? Since the circles no longer exist, there are no tranquil and thus the only enchanting is done by dwarves. Apart from healer, chances are the only "city" career there is for a mage is that of a mercenary. There might be the exceptional mage taken into a city watch or a court. But those won't be the majority.

and then we come to problem number two... the world is a horribly unfair place. Children get sick and dies. Wars happen and any innocent caught between them lose their home... at best. Bandits haunt the roads and kill passersby. Mountain passes gets blocked and crucial trade convoys get's crushed under the rubble.
All humans long for something better. All humans at some point feel the pressure of the world and despair.

How will the mages handle that?

Deep in depression. A child will die. And along comes a voice... and offers a reprieve.

[GodWood]

Mages would hold all positions of power and non mages would simply be cattle to fuel the blood-magic of their mage overlords.

[Vlad_Dracul]

Just what said sister Nightingale and Fenris both. Another magical empire, but maybe with more enlightened culture without slavery and blood magic, cause they arent so stupid as Meredith and co. always assumed. There isnt status quo like in never conquered old Imperium.

In Tevinter Imperium, nobles and mages are the same. Families with power will be now more resonable, when their sons and daughters will want to be married with mages. Amells could be former magister family, when they had always mages amongst their family.

[Sons of Horus]

GodWood wrote...

Mages would hold all positions of power and non mages would simply be cattle to fuel the blood-magic of their mage overlords.

Aye reminds me of what Anora states if you propose the alliance of marriage with her as a mage. The people fear mages becoming their rulers. After all the Tevinter’s are still apparently decadent, abusing their slaves with impunity as well as privately practicing blood magic.
The Dalish keeper's only work because of the clan based system in which they take direct responsibly for the safety of their tribe. They don't get a choice to chose what role they take despite what some pro-mage players say. It's an incompatible system for Circle mage's I would think.

[AlexXIV]

I don't think it will end in a mage victory. At least not in a complete victory, because that would mean a world ruled by magic. There will be some sort of treaty at some point before the world goes to hell. I don't think there is a way any side can win and I think there is no way to go back to the situation prior to the war. Sandal foreshadowed on something extraordinary happening. So I guess at some point in the war both sides are forced to work together if they don't want the earth open beneath them and swallow them all. Or something along that. Nobody really wins in wars anyway. There will have too many people died and too many things destroyed.

[TobiTobsen]

Sir JK wrote...

What the world would look like after the mage victory. It is a good question. It depends on both what the mages do in the war and what what they do afterwards.

Key I think. Is... what would the mages settle for?

On average, the people of Thedas are poor farmers. At most the need they have from the mages is healthcare and blasting the odd stump off. A mage could probably find some employment, but at best as a farmhand. Alternatively he could be some wandering healer. Both cases would make you poor and rootless. So the question is... would the mages settle for this?
And more importantly, the mages who have lived in circles. Slept in silk beds, communal dinners every evening. Ale straight from the keg. Had access to all the study material in the world.
Will they humbly accept the life as a farm hand?

Some might point out they could make a living in cities instead. Could they? The odd healer here and there, sure. But what does city folk need mages for beyond that? Since the circles no longer exist, there are no tranquil and thus the only enchanting is done by dwarves. Apart from healer, chances are the only "city" career there is for a mage is that of a mercenary. There might be the exceptional mage taken into a city watch or a court. But those won't be the majority.

and then we come to problem number two... the world is a horribly unfair place. Children get sick and dies. Wars happen and any innocent caught between them lose their home... at best. Bandits haunt the roads and kill passersby. Mountain passes gets blocked and crucial trade convoys get's crushed under the rubble.
All humans long for something better. All humans at some point feel the pressure of the world and despair.

How will the mages handle that?

Deep in depression. A child will die. And along comes a voice... and offers a reprieve.

Quoted for truth. The mages may live in a cage but it's still a golden cage.
Would be interesting to see if they would settle for less.

[Wulfram]

Mages form an alliance with, say, Nevarra and Fereldan, start their own chantry with blackjack and hookers which doesn't hate on the mages and isn't under Orlesian control.  Recieve a stipend from the state in return for military service and policing themselves.

[jamesp81]

I see a victory in which mages free themselves entirely from the Chantry, but continue to live in Circle towers and policing themselves (in fact, the mages would end up inheriting the authority the templars once had). The Circle has always been wealthy because of the enchanted items it can create and sell. This would continue, and provide plenty adequate funding for the mages to maintain their circles.

This had better be the result, anyway, if the rest of Thedas wants a prayer of stopping the qunari. The mages are, rightly, pissed off enough about Kirkwall that I think they'd let the qunari run unchecked if the Chantry didn't accept their terms.

Modifié par jamesp81, 17 octobre 2011 - 12:13 .

[Wulfram]

jamesp81 wrote...

I see a victory in which mages free themselves entirely from the Chantry, but continue to live in Circle towers. The Circle has always been wealthy because of the enchanted items it can create and sell. This would continue, and provide plenty adequate funding for the mages to maintain their circles.

Enchanting is done by the Tranquil.  Which free mages would presumably abolish, or greatly reduce.

[jamesp81]

Wulfram wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

I see a victory in which mages free themselves entirely from the Chantry, but continue to live in Circle towers. The Circle has always been wealthy because of the enchanted items it can create and sell. This would continue, and provide plenty adequate funding for the mages to maintain their circles.

Enchanting is done by the Tranquil.  Which free mages would presumably abolish, or greatly reduce.

Maybe, maybe not.  The First Enchanter in each Circle tower is already granted the power to determine who is made tranquil and who is not.

It could be an even simpler solution: hire dwarves.  They're pretty good at the sort of thing, and are always happy to make some extra coin.

[Wulfram]

jamesp81 wrote...

Maybe, maybe not.  The First Enchanter in each Circle tower is already granted the power to determine who is made tranquil and who is not.

It's difficult to believe that Orsino authorised all the Tranquils in the Kirkwall tower.  And even in a well functioning tower, the First Enchanter is still bound to follow the Chantry's rules.

It could be an even simpler solution: hire dwarves.  They're pretty good at the sort of thing, and are always happy to make some extra coin.

Anyone can hire dwarves, the circle would have no particular advantage.  And presumably a free Circle would no longer enjoy the Chantry's lyrium monopoly.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Wulfram wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

I see a victory in which mages free themselves entirely from the Chantry, but continue to live in Circle towers. The Circle has always been wealthy because of the enchanted items it can create and sell. This would continue, and provide plenty adequate funding for the mages to maintain their circles.

Enchanting is done by the Tranquil.  Which free mages would presumably abolish, or greatly reduce.

Tranquil are the best at enchanting, but mages themselves are not incapable of it. That ambassador mage in Vigil's Keep is a mage and is able to enchant runes into your gear without a tranquil in sight.

As for the lyrium monopoly, there's no guarantee that the Chantry will be able to maintain it, especially since they don't have the muscle of the Templars at their beck and call.

[TheCreeper]

I can see Tranquils existing in a mage run circle, although it would either be purely voluntary or done to blood mages (even then it should be optional, like either take a death sentence or become tranquil)

As for Lyrium, it's implied a number of templars revolted to find their own supply of Lyrium so it's likely that the Chantry's control of it topside is coming to an end, although Templars with control over their own supply of Lyrium is a scary freaking thought.

Modifié par TheCreeper, 17 octobre 2011 - 02:28 .

[Sons of Horus]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

I see a victory in which mages free themselves entirely from the Chantry, but continue to live in Circle towers. The Circle has always been wealthy because of the enchanted items it can create and sell. This would continue, and provide plenty adequate funding for the mages to maintain their circles.

Enchanting is done by the Tranquil.  Which free mages would presumably abolish, or greatly reduce.

Tranquil are the best at enchanting, but mages themselves are not incapable of it. That ambassador mage in Vigil's Keep is a mage and is able to enchant runes into your gear without a tranquil in sight.

As for the lyrium monopoly, there's no guarantee that the Chantry will be able to maintain it, especially since they don't have the muscle of the Templars at their beck and call.

The "ambassador mage" was a Tranquil in Vigil's Keep. Only dwarfs and Tranquil are able to perform the enchantments. It's common to send Tranquil emissaries like the warden's camp.