185 réponses à ce sujet

[Everwarden]

Beerfish wrote...

The world will be ruled by the Qunari because the horn heads are waiting, biding their time and will jump in in the midst of this conflict when both sides are weak and distracted. I see them making a deal with one of the two sides, whoever is losing and desperate and then immediately turning on them when victory is in sight.

Thus showing the often quoted 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' is often short sighted baloney.

I can predict with almost 100% certainty that the Qunari will never, ever conquer all of Thedas. Won't happen. Don't pin your hopes on that.

Bioware likes making money. Most people wouldn't want to play in a world controlled completely by the Qunari. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Huntress wrote...

TJPags wrote...

So, the newly enlightened free mages are going to make their own people Tranquil in order to make money so the rest can live in style?
That's . . . . marvelous . . . . .

There are mages who fear they own power, this mages will ask to be made tranquil, but is NOT forced upon them, is by their own choice. Yes there will be tranquil's, there will be good mages, there will be mercenaries mages, they'll be mages RULERS ( tevinter) and they'll be free mages in exile.

I hope we could see it.. next game is about Orlais and tevinter.. what a mess thats going to be! lol!

Why?  Why would they do that?

Because thet dont like abominations.

Instead, maybe they won't even want to be trained.  What about them?  Do the other mages force them to be trained?  Forcefully make them tranquil?

yes

And what about power hungry mages?  Are the mages going to hunt them?  Kill thenm?  Forcefully make them tranquil?

yes

Which mage will be the one to stand up and say "you can do this, you can't do that"?  And if a mage refuses?  What then?  Kill them?  Imprison them?  Make the tranquil?  Force them out of their homes?

Tyranny of the majority. Also yes

It's not going to be all peaches and cream here, people.  There are going to be criminal mages.  And they will have to be policed by other mages.  And there will be some who don't like that.  Don't you think this is a recipe for a problem?

No

You really need to look up the word: disipline .And understand that mages will not tolerate bull**** from idiots that do not want to reign in their power. The circles( and not the templars who only enforce chantry law) already enforce such laws

So basically they would be back to square one, and instead of having the Chantry telling them what to do, it would just be some other mage. Great, and how many people will have died for that?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

TheCreeper wrote...
So what would be the likely outcome of a mage victory in your guy's opinion?

Sandal's prophecy coming true and everyone in the world becoming mages.

[Lazy Jer]

I'm going to add my voice to the chorus of folks how say that a mage victory (however unlikely) is going to result in more fighting.  Some will insist on a new version of the circle, others will insist on absolute unchecked freedom to practice magic.  Some will want to subjegate non-mages, others will consider that wrong and fight them at all costs.  Then there's the blood-magic controversy, some mages (i.e. Merrill) will support blood magic as a legitimate practice of magic, while others (i.e. Bethany) will want to abolish it completely.  There's too many different sides to the conflict for there not to have a period of in-fighting between the mages.

[GavrielKay]

The surest path to an actual mage victory would be the Templars going crazy.

We know from the codex that Templars are chosen for their zealotry rather than their morality. Add that to lyrium withdrawal and you can have some very ill behaved Templars roaming the countryside. People who believe they are obligated by the Maker to pursue mages at all costs - including torturing civilians - will not make many friends.

Providing the Templars manage to make the mages look reasonable and the lesser evil... the civilians could eventually get behind them. National leaders should already know the strategic advantages of having mages on their side, so they have motives to protect them as well.

I do not believe that the only possible outcome of free mages is a second Tevinter. We now know that the mages have had the ability to break free from the circles but hadn't until the events of Kirkwall broke the stalemate. If they have been unwilling to use violence en masse up until now, why should we believe they are mostly power hungry evil bastards out to create a blood magic/slave empire?

[EmperorSahlertz]

National leaders already have mages as advisors.... And with the Circles, they are in far more control over the Mages than without... Tell me again why national leaders would want free mages disrupting their power balance?

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 18 octobre 2011 - 04:18 .

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

National leaders already have mages as advisors.... And with the Circles, they are in far more control over the Mages than without... Tell me again why national leaders would want free mages disrupting their power balance?

Depends on the situation.  If it were to become clear that the Templars intended to exterminate the mages, or that the mages would die rather than go back to the old ways, then there might be no choice but to accept them as "free."  Though I'm sure mage freedom would be the same as any other freedom - with limits to make them fit into society.  I don't think anyone has ever suggested that mages should be allowed to do as they please in all things, but getting out from under the thumb of a bunch of religious zealots who think they've been cursed by the Maker would still be an improvement.

[Wulfram]

Mage freedom is most likely to be attractive to a leader who is already desperate - if you're being invaded by the Orlesians, then being able to deploy the Mages of your Kingdom en masse on the battlefield might be the thing that saves you,

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

So, the newly enlightened free mages are going to make their own people Tranquil in order to make money so the rest can live in style?
That's . . . . marvelous . . . . .

I thought you were tired of the mage v. templar threads.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wulfram wrote...

Mage freedom is most likely to be attractive to a leader who is already desperate - if you're being invaded by the Orlesians, then being able to deploy the Mages of your Kingdom en masse on the battlefield might be the thing that saves you,

Except that with the mages free, you can't simply order them to do it. With the Circles a king actually could.

[CrimsonZephyr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

National leaders already have mages as advisors.... And with the Circles, they are in far more control over the Mages than without... Tell me again why national leaders would want free mages disrupting their power balance?

National leaders have solitary mages as advisors - the rest are firmly under Chantry authority. The trouble is that to reestablish the Circles would require killing many more mages, who would not want to be back in the same situation again. The time it would take to replenish those numbers would not be acceptable when Orlais is becoming expansionist again, Tevinter is apparently experiencing a resurgence, the Qunari might be gearing up, and the Grey Wardens are investigating some scary secret stuff in the Deep Roads. Having mages directly under national control, without the interference of the Chantry, would actually strengthen any leader who goes through with it. Does that mean mages should not be in a dedicated organization? No. But having the magi in a freer organization which gives more incentives for loyalty would only benefit the ruler than implements it.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 18 octobre 2011 - 04:54 .

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Except that with the mages free, you can't simply order them to do it. With the Circles a king actually could.

The King can't simply order the Circles to fight for him.  Even for fighting the darkspawn at Ostagar, Cailan only got 7 mages

If offered freedom as the prize, the mages would fight.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Mage freedom is most likely to be attractive to a leader who is already desperate - if you're being invaded by the Orlesians, then being able to deploy the Mages of your Kingdom en masse on the battlefield might be the thing that saves you,

Except that with the mages free, you can't simply order them to do it. With the Circles a king actually could.

Technically, with the circles, the King could beg the Chantry to allow a handful of mages to fight at some point removed from the battlefield where they can be watched like hawks. 

With the mages free, they can be recruited like any other person into the army, or as mercenaries or just as people who are interested in protecting their homeland.

[Huntress]

TJPags wrote...

Why?  Why would they do that?

Instead, maybe they won't even want to be trained.  What about them?  Do the other mages force them to be trained?  Forcefully make them tranquil?

And what about power hungry mages?  Are the mages going to hunt them?  Kill thenm?  Forcefully make them tranquil?

Which mage will be the one to stand up and say "you can do this, you can't do that"?  And if a mage refuses?  What then?  Kill them?  Imprison them?  Make the tranquil?  Force them out of their homes?

It's not going to be all peaches and cream here, people.  There are going to be criminal mages.  And they will have to be policed by other mages.  And there will be some who don't like that.  Don't you think this is a recipe for a problem?

Why some mages want to be tranquil? they fear the maker and believe magic is a curse, some will have terrible nightmares and want them to end.

There is always power hunger people.. you are babbling. What to do with them? What we have been doing since DAO. I guess you missed that part? If someone become a danger for you and you're family you try to remove them.. is that concept new to you? Is not new to DA Lore.

 who will stand against this mages? The leader of this mages. will some of the leaders be corrupted leaders? YES is like asking: is the water weat? But they'll be good leaders aswell, just like Wynne, Bethany, Irving.

I have never said it was going to be peaches and rainbows, I said they will break into groups, one seeking power, one who will exile themself and the ones who will serve, the ones who serve/seek power  will be mercenaries, they work for rich merchants, lords, king's, the chantry.. well i hope you got what i mean.

One question, what can the templars do to stop a mage from turning him on a bag of bones? Nothing.
can you trully say the circles are working? no crazy mages roaming the streets, no apostes, no witches?... wake up and smell the estiercol.  And to make you smell it even farther in ->there is Tevinter! full of mages and I haven't read anywere they are over run by demons, this mages have survive for more than 900 years without templars.

Templars are only good for killing, making tranquil, rape and torment the mages who already they have under control, some of this mages have never deal with a demon or are blood-mages. Yes POWER corrupt and templars should be removed from it.
Other thing the templar Order was created after the mages surrender, instead of making the circle an school as planned, they made them a prison and brain wash the new mages that it was for their own good. thats why so many young mages want to be tranquil, they belive it is a curse.

Templars are not necessary, elves never had need of them and they still roam the forests with leaders like: Lanaya.

[trobbins777]

What if a mage victory is a world where everyone is a mage, a sort of Anti-Tranquil Solution if you will?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wulfram wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Except that with the mages free, you can't simply order them to do it. With the Circles a king actually could.

The King can't simply order the Circles to fight for him.  Even for fighting the darkspawn at Ostagar, Cailan only got 7 mages

If offered freedom as the prize, the mages would fight.

Perhaps they only got 7 because 7 volunteered. I don't recall us being given the specifics to why only 7 mages joins the fighting. Besides, not all mages are trained in combat spells, so not all mages would be able to fight anyway, what value would they hold to the king?

On another note; Why is it okay for a king to use mages in his wars, but not for the Chantry? Seems kind of hypocritical to critisize the Chantry for using the mages in different wars, and then, almost in the same breath, say it is totally okay for a king to do just that, should the mages be free.

[EmperorSahlertz]

GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Mage freedom is most likely to be attractive to a leader who is already desperate - if you're being invaded by the Orlesians, then being able to deploy the Mages of your Kingdom en masse on the battlefield might be the thing that saves you,

Except that with the mages free, you can't simply order them to do it. With the Circles a king actually could.

Technically, with the circles, the King could beg the Chantry to allow a handful of mages to fight at some point removed from the battlefield where they can be watched like hawks. 

With the mages free, they can be recruited like any other person into the army, or as mercenaries or just as people who are interested in protecting their homeland.

So in the Chantry/Circles, the king could ask for violunteers who would join his cause, but without the Circle he can FORCE them, and that is okay. Gotcha....

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Perhaps they only got 7 because 7 volunteered. I don't recall us being given the specifics to why only 7 mages joins the fighting. Besides, not all mages are trained in combat spells, so not all mages would be able to fight anyway, what value would they hold to the king?

It's clearly established in the Mage Origin that it's Greagoir who is limiting the amount of mages at Ostagar. 

What mages have we encountered who didn't have some sort of combat ability?  What would it change if there were some, anyway?

[Gotholhorakh]

TJPags wrote...

As discussed upthread by others, what work is there for mages?  Honestly, how many do we see with an actual job that earn actual money?

O look, I wield awesome supernatural powers, I can cut down swathes of people dead at the merest motion of my hand, I am on the winning side in a war, and I'm living in a land ruled by a feudal system waiting for me to take my rightful place as a Lord/Lady.


Better get myself a job clearing tree stumps.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 18 octobre 2011 - 08:36 .

[KJandrew]

People keep going on about how the Templars are all going to be going through Lyrium withdrawals. But there's bound to be a few Templar sympathisers in the Chantry giving them a line. Plus on the converse Mages also need Lyrium, without it they get knackered and can't cast any spells for a while after a few castings. So without the Chantry's supply, what are they going to do after their mages can't cast any more and a bunch of guys with swords are charging at them?

[Gotholhorakh]

KJandrew wrote...

People keep going on about how the Templars are all going to be going through Lyrium withdrawals. But there's bound to be a few Templar sympathisers in the Chantry giving them a line. Plus on the converse Mages also need Lyrium, without it they get knackered and can't cast any spells for a while after a few castings. So without the Chantry's supply, what are they going to do after their mages can't cast any more and a bunch of guys with swords are charging at them?

If the Chantry controlling lyrium makes life unworkable for the new free, untethered mages, how long is their control of lyrium going to last?

It's a tool used for power. It is one of the first things we would wrest from their grasp unless we lacked any survival instinct.

Sorry, I mean mages. not we.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 18 octobre 2011 - 08:46 .

[DKJaigen]

KJandrew wrote...

People keep going on about how the Templars are all going to be going through Lyrium withdrawals. But there's bound to be a few Templar sympathisers in the Chantry giving them a line. Plus on the converse Mages also need Lyrium, without it they get knackered and can't cast any spells for a while after a few castings. So without the Chantry's supply, what are they going to do after their mages can't cast any more and a bunch of guys with swords are charging at them?

Your not correct. Mages can always cast spells and do not need lyrium to do so. For a mage lyrium is a energy drink. For the templars its more like food and water in importance. Without it withdrawal will kick in and they will go insane. In war however supplies strain fast. And not only that, lyrium is rare and expensive. And their is only one reliable exporter(orzarmmar) making it numbingly easy to predict the templar supply lines.

[KJandrew]

DKJaigen wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

People keep going on about how the Templars are all going to be going through Lyrium withdrawals. But there's bound to be a few Templar sympathisers in the Chantry giving them a line. Plus on the converse Mages also need Lyrium, without it they get knackered and can't cast any spells for a while after a few castings. So without the Chantry's supply, what are they going to do after their mages can't cast any more and a bunch of guys with swords are charging at them?

Your not correct. Mages can always cast spells and do not need lyrium to do so. For a mage lyrium is a energy drink. For the templars its more like food and water in importance. Without it withdrawal will kick in and they will go insane. In war however supplies strain fast. And not only that, lyrium is rare and expensive. And their is only one reliable exporter(orzarmmar) making it numbingly easy to predict the templar supply lines.

Spells drain Mages' energy, Lyrium gives them a boost so they aren't drained. Any prolonged Lyrium use results in addiction and with a war on Mages are going to be using a lot of big spells to take out the templars. So either after they do those big spells they wait to get stabbed by the next wave or they take Lyrium, eventually getting just as addicted to it as Templars, except the knights have a chance of recieving more of it. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Templars don't consume lyrium like food or water... Where'd you get that? We don't even know if it is consumed on a daily, weekly or monthly basis. Nor does lyrium withdrawal cause insanity, on the contrary, it is lyrium addiction over a long period which causes Templars to become "lyrium addled". Lyrium withdrawal is probably not anymore fatal than real world drug withdrawal.

And mages DO need lyrium if they intend to cast magic of particular power, or cast several spells over a period of time, unless tehy want to be drained of mana, and wait to regain their powers. Of course they can avoid the problem entirely by using blood magic...

[Zanallen]

Everwarden wrote...

Yeah, because an army of walking Howitzers in a medieval setting have no chance at all of being a bunch of religious zealots. Which is why they successfully broke free of every Circle, when Templars were already watching them and supposed to be prepared.

I never said they couldn't beat the templars, I said they couldn't beat the Chantry. Personally, I find the fact that they successfully liberated every Chantry to be ridiculous and a silly addition to the lore. But whatever. Its done. That being said, the vast majority of people in Thedas follow the Chantry. The second major "religion" is the Qun. Neither religion advocates mage freedom. If the mages pushes it and tries to pull down the Chantry, like so many pro-mage posters want them to do, they will be fighting every religious man and woman in Thedas. Their only real hope is to sue for peace or go somewhere else.