185 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

blothulfur wrote...

So your mages have achieved freedom and thus in your feudal societies stand equal with kings and other potentates, they have destroyed the holy warriors of your maker and have thrown down the religion that supports that deity. So this miniscule minority has gone from a position of favour that the vast majority of peoples in Thedas can only dream of to the highest office in the land through violence and destroying the peoples god, will the common folk truly believe that they want anything less than the ascension of new demon ridden magisters brought to power on seas of bas blood.

It will be Tevinter reborn.

I utterly fail to see how a group of oppressed and enslaved people freeing themselves must lead to them turning the tables.  It is simply not demonstrated that free mages become power hungry monsters.  We have Morrigan, the Dalish, the Chasind, Rivain, Anders (pre-Justice), Irving, Wynne, the Warden, Bethany...  that's quite a few mages who we've been given no reason to believe are looking forward to taking over the world and bleeding it dry.  it simply is not the only possible outcome.

The mages can desire substantially more self-determination  without wanting to become the first leaders of Tevinter 2.

[TJPags]

TheCreeper wrote...

You know Andraste being a mage is a rather popular Heresy/Rumor, I imagine a lot of mages would try to promote that as a way of druming up support with the people.

True, and it might be a smart idea for mages to use.  Sort of re-write the story/philosphy of Andraste a bit.

Propoganda is good.  Takes a while to spread, but it is good.

[DPSSOC]

GavrielKay wrote...
I utterly fail to see how a group of oppressed and enslaved people freeing themselves must lead to them turning the tables.  It is simply not demonstrated that free mages become power hungry monsters.

Tahrone, Idunna, Decimus, Grace, and the entire ruling class of Tevinter come to mind.

GavrielKay wrote...
We have Morrigan, the Dalish, the Chasind, Rivain,

 
Who were all born free rather than having to fight for it.  Fighting for freedom after a lifetime of oppression and potential abuse results in a drastically different mentallity than simply being born free.

GavrielKay wrote...
Anders (pre-Justice), Irving, Wynne,

 
Who aren't actually free.

GavrielKay wrote...
the Warden, Bethany...  that's quite a few mages who we've been given no reason to believe are looking forward to taking over the world and bleeding it dry.  it simply is not the only possible outcome.

True but is a possible outcome and, given a significantly jaded outlook on human nature, can be seen as the most likely one.

GavrielKay wrote...
The mages can desire substantially more self-determination  without wanting to become the first leaders of Tevinter 2.

Yes but consider this.  You've been working the same job for 20 years without a single pay raise or promotion because of one person in the company who's out to get you, and because of contractual obligations you can't quit.  Through careful scheming you manage to get that person fired and finally get a long overdue raise and promotion.  Now, armed with the knowledge that you could get other people fired much more easily can you honestly say you would stop with one promotion and one raise?

[DRTJR]

the Burning a sacking of the Orlisian Capital with different Chantries siding with their host nation. Ferelden become the preeminent nation on the Planet, More Elven rights. possibly the eventual legalization of Blood magic.

[Huntress]

"Yes but consider this. You've been working the same job for 20 years without a single pay raise or promotion because of one person in the company who's out to get you, and because of contractual obligations you can't quit. Through careful scheming you manage to get that person fired and finally get a long overdue raise and promotion. Now, armed with the knowledge that you could get other people fired much more easily can you honestly say you would stop with one promotion and one raise?"

But you do have a choice right? you can leave that job and get another without waiting or planning on removing someone also for 20 years. if you don't do that you are not very smart and why would the company pay you more if you are just "happy" with you're situation? What I mean by this if you don't cry, you will not get feed. Just think of little birds the ones who open the mouth bigger eat more.

Mages on the other hand the " few good ones" just want to get their change to decide where they want to go with their lives, ferelden mages are a bit different that tevinter mages, they have been tought for 900 years how evil tevinter blood-mages are and a good chunk of them don't want that to repeat, some want to be accepted others just want to leave and never come back.

You said a place without templars... yes very evil mages will be living happy ever after, but you forget that for every evil person 2-3 good ones will rise and destroy it, thats how societies are formed and people grow, one bad thing happen, one good thing happen and the new borns learn of both sides and given time they too will decide what to do with their own lives, for good or evil.

Anyone who think only mages are evil is dumb, evil people is anyone and it doens't need to cast spell just need to have a weapon and a hunger to destroy or for power.

[GavrielKay]

DPSSOC wrote...

Yes but consider this.  You've been working the same job for 20 years without a single pay raise or promotion because of one person in the company who's out to get you, and because of contractual obligations you can't quit.  Through careful scheming you manage to get that person fired and finally get a long overdue raise and promotion.  Now, armed with the knowledge that you could get other people fired much more easily can you honestly say you would stop with one promotion and one raise?

I can honestly say that if I thought the outcome of grabbing for more power was that everyone and their dog would call for my death and that of everyone else who was like me, I might consider toning down any notion of revenge.

I believe that most people are somewhere between good and neutral and have their own self-interest and that of any family or friends at heart.  Therefore, I believe that most mages, finding themselves suddenly freer than ever before would not immediately do something that would cause them to end up worse off than where they started. 

Mages who want the cutthroat nature of Tevinter could use their newfound freedom to go there.

It certainly would have been easier had the Chantry negoatiated more freedom for the mages and prevented it from coming to violence, but that's not the story we're given.  Despite this, I don't think it is a given that a mage "victory" would lead to a Tevinter style mageocracy by default.

[TEWR]

TJPags wrote...


Ever read a book about, say, growing an acre of potatos?  Ever do it?  (and if you have, have pity on a poor city boy for thinking it's hard and/or more complicated than it looks    I actually have trouble getting grass to grow instead of weeds )  Not everything is easy to translate from book to practical use, is my point.  And in the case of growing your own food . . . well, mess up, you go hungry.

Potatoes? Nah. Tomatoes yes. Blueberries yes. My backyard is literally a garden of fruits and vegetables (or was rather before we got a dog. Now all we have are blackberries).

But I've read cookbooks and made food. Not quite the same thing, but meh.

I imagine the students of the Circle don't just read those for fun. They probably also try them out to see if they work. It's like Hogwarts! Sort of. Except you don't have tiny wands. The mages must be glad for that!

Who would educate the populous?  Remember, these are people raised to believe in the Chant of Andraste - which has been destroyed by mages in the course of this war.  They won't look happily on that, it may even reinforce their belief that mages are dangerous.

Why would mages destroy the Chant? The Chantry may have been abolished, but the Andrastian belief -- and by extension the Chant of Light -- wouldn't have been destroyed. Those are two different things.

Some people actually believe that Andraste was a mage. Given that the Warden -- who may have been a mage -- and his/her friends can meet with the Guardian and learn about Andraste, he/she or his/her friends could talk about how the Guardian said that Andraste would meditate for weeks without food or water.

That sounds an awful lot like what mages can do. Granted, people in our world have gone without food or water for a while too, but also add into that the magical nature of the Ashes, the destruction wrought upon Tevinter, and the fact that the Chant talked about magic being a gift from the Maker and who knows what else and the populus may actually begin to think Andraste was a mage.

Which would mean that maybe mages should be given more respect.

Hopefully they wouldn't get too cocky though. But even without the mages using that particular take on Andraste, kings and queens and the mages themselves could talk about the potential benefits.

It'd be a slow process, but not one that shouldn't be tried.

As to the mages regional idea, see Lob's post just a few above yours . . . I don't recall much talk about it earlier in the thread, except for the vague comments about the mages just living in the old Circle Towers - which brings up the problem of feeding and clothing all those people.

Now I feel like I was being lazy since it was just a few posts above mine .

But anyway, I'll give it a look.

[Dave of Canada]

• Mages won't tolerate being oppressed or insulted by the non-mages, they'd cull the masses with intimidation / blood magic / violence and form their own groups to protect themselves from any non-mage rebellion.
• The removal of the Rite of Tranquility removes any profit the Circles tend to make, forcing them to find different sources of income. The Mages decide to tax the commonfolk.
• The mages who've lived the high life in their tower under Templar watch will loathe being treated like dirt, they've been treated like Nobles their entire life and they're going to want to continue that lifestyle (just like any spoiled brat).
• Mages who aren't top dogs will deal with the stress of the average Thedosian lifestyle of being raped, abused and whatever. They'd go full abomination in public locations rather than isolated, creating more anti-mage sentiments.
• Chantry uprisings will occur and have to be squashed.

Tevinter 2.0 is accomplished.

[Xewaka]

Dave of Canada wrote...

• Mages won't tolerate being oppressed or insulted by the non-mages, they'd cull the masses with intimidation / blood magic / violence and form their own groups to protect themselves from any non-mage rebellion.
• The removal of the Rite of Tranquility removes any profit the Circles tend to make, forcing them to find different sources of income. The Mages decide to tax the commonfolk.
• The mages who've lived the high life in their tower under Templar watch will loathe being treated like dirt, they've been treated like Nobles their entire life and they're going to want to continue that lifestyle (just like any spoiled brat).
• Mages who aren't top dogs will deal with the stress of the average Thedosian lifestyle of being raped, abused and whatever. They'd go full abomination in public locations rather than isolated, creating more anti-mage sentiments.
• Chantry uprisings will occur and have to be squashed.

Tevinter 2.0 is accomplished.

Yeah, pretty much this.

[DKJaigen]

Dave of Canada wrote...

• Mages won't tolerate being oppressed or insulted by the non-mages, they'd cull the masses with intimidation / blood magic / violence and form their own groups to protect themselves from any non-mage rebellion.
• The removal of the Rite of Tranquility removes any profit the Circles tend to make, forcing them to find different sources of income. The Mages decide to tax the commonfolk.
• The mages who've lived the high life in their tower under Templar watch will loathe being treated like dirt, they've been treated like Nobles their entire life and they're going to want to continue that lifestyle (just like any spoiled brat).
• Mages who aren't top dogs will deal with the stress of the average Thedosian lifestyle of being raped, abused and whatever. They'd go full abomination in public locations rather than isolated, creating more anti-mage sentiments.
• Chantry uprisings will occur and have to be squashed.

Tevinter 2.0 is accomplished.

Common sense must be a rare commodity in canada. Because in your scenario people are all acting like idiots.
Furthermore i dont mind a tevinter imperium in this case because 4 out of 5 cases shows that the people in thedas are indeed brain dead morons and should be kept on a leash.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 19 octobre 2011 - 08:48 .

[Sons of Horus]

DRTJR wrote...

the Burning a sacking of the Orlisian Capital with different Chantries siding with their host nation. Ferelden become the preeminent nation on the Planet, More Elven rights. possibly the eventual legalization of Blood magic.

Orlais is an Empire, with several standing armies of the empress not to mention its own circle and templars.
Ferelden is barely surviving after the blight, normally the blight would have lasted a lot longer maybe even destroying that nation. Elves would never get more rights in human lands, don’t know where you pulled that from. Blood magic is too open to abuse others, no sane person would legalize a form of mind manipulation.

Seriously you may want to rethink your argument before you post.

Modifié par Sons of Horus, 19 octobre 2011 - 09:07 .

[Xewaka]

DKJaigen wrote...
Because in your scenario people are all acting like people.

I repaired your post so that it makes sense.

[GodWood]

DKJaigen wrote...
Common sense must be a rare commodity in canada. Because in your scenario people are all acting like idiots.

Oh please do explain.

[DKJaigen]

Xewaka wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
Because in your scenario people are all acting like people.

I repaired your post so that it makes sense.

So every person in thedas is a moronic biggot **** and the favorite pasttime includes rape and abuse? I think your playing FATAL instead of DA here mate .

And for the record not even in the medieval times people the way Dave described. And the DA is a considerable better world then our own medieval world.

[GodWood]

The non-mages are afraid because a bunch of people who can explode you with their finger tips are now runnning around free.

The non-mages are annoyed because their new oppressive mage overlords are taxing them.

The non-mages fear the mages who are now turning into abominations because they can't handle the stresses of the real world.

The non-mages are sick of being oppressed by this minority and attack.


I'm sorry but how do any of these things make the non-mages idiots DK?

[DKJaigen]

GodWood wrote...

The non-mages are afraid because a bunch of people who can explode you with their finger tips are now runnning around free.

Ever heard of PR? Mages need to keep a low profile for a while but simply set up a few hospitals and that fear will dissapear.

The non-mages are annoyed because their new oppressive mage overlords are taxing them.

And this will just not happen.

The non-mages fear the mages who are now turning into abominations because they can't handle the stresses of the real world.

If they can handle the circle they can handle the outside world

The non-mages are sick of being oppressed by this minority and attack.

1. this will not happen. 2 they only get sick if the mages rule badly

I'm sorry but how do any of these things make the non-mages idiots DK?

You put the mages in the worst possible extremist angle. Then yes this will happen. But this  not happen given the current political climate so yours and daves arguments are nothing more but fallacies.

[Xewaka]

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...
[quote]Xewaka wrote...
[quote]DKJaigen wrote...
Because in your scenario people are all acting like people.[/quote]
I repaired your post so that it makes sense.[/quote]
So every person in thedas is a moronic biggot **** and the favorite pasttime includes rape and abuse? I think your playing FATAL instead of DA here mate .
And for the record not even in the medieval times people the way Dave described. And the DA is a considerable better world then our own medieval world. [/quote]
No, you fail to see the point. Individuals are smart and reasonable. People are a stupid, frightful lot. The more persons you bunch together in people, the dumber they get. Thus, panic-induced lashing and escalation of hostility due to social agitation is the expected result.
Also, citing obscure manuals of lacking judgement and terrible quality do not further your point. Citing in-lore examples (Such as the City Elf Origin and the fate of Shianni therein) do better to support claims.

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...
[quote]GodWood wrote...
The non-mages are afraid because a bunch of people who can explode you with their finger tips are now runnning around free.[/quote]
Ever heard of PR? Mages need to keep a low profile for a while but simply set up a few hospitals and that fear will dissapear. [/quote]
That worked so well for Anders. You know, the terrorist abomination that blowed up a chruch.

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...
[quote]GodWood wrote...
The non-mages are annoyed because their new oppressive mage overlords are taxing them.[/quote]
And this will just not happen.[/quote]
The stablished precedent indicates otherwise.

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...

[quote]GodWood wrote...
The non-mages fear the mages who are now turning into abominations because they can't handle the stresses of the real world.[/quote]
If they can handle the circle they can handle the outside world [/quote]
Yes, if they can handle having lodging and manutention as well as clothing and other luxury items handed to them, they can handle famine an poverty and actual hard work. Oh wait.

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...


[quote]GodWood wrote...
The non-mages are sick of being oppressed by this minority and attack.[/quote]
1. this will not happen. 2 they only get sick if the mages rule badly[/quote]
BEcause authoritarian overlords with clear powers and privileges unaccesible to the subjects prove to be such good rulers.


[quote]DKJaigen wrote...
[quote]GodWood wrote...
I'm sorry but how do any of these things make the non-mages idiots DK?[/quote]
You put the mages in the worst possible extremist angle. Then yes this will happen. But this not happen given the current political climate so yours and daves arguments are nothing more but fallacies.[/quote]
Mages are put in the light precedent paints them, nothing more. Also, the political climate is that mages are attacking the very institution of belief and culture of half the continent. That does not spell roses and sunshine.

Modifié par Xewaka, 19 octobre 2011 - 01:26 .

[GodWood]

Ever heard of PR? Mages need to keep a low profile for a while but simply set up a few hospitals and that fear will dissapear.

You seem to have this childish notion that the mages want to integrate themselves among the peasant folk under the rule of their feudal lords.
If the mages actually did successfully overthrow the templars/chantry they'd have the world at their feet.

Many would take advantage of this and seek power over the weaker humans.

And this will just not happen.

And why not? It's a possible outcome.

If they can handle the circle they can handle the outside world

Hardly.
Under the circle they have free food, accomodation, education and protection.
Outside the circle they have none of these things plus the added negative of a society of people who hate and fear them.

1. this will not happen.

Why won't this happen? At least try to justify your childish idealism.

[LobselVith8]

Aside from the regional mages having (in all likelihood) different styles of leadership, I'd imagine we should consider how the Dalish and the Kingdom of Rivain (with its seers and witches) could be like if the mage revolution won and secured a future of mage autonomy.

I suppose The Warden from the Circle of Ferelden who asked for the emancipation of his people (with the Magi boon), and possibly an apostate Champion of Kirkwall who sided with the mages, could be voices that the regional mages may listen to, if either of them ended up playing some part in the movement, or even lead mages under their leadership (which is something Anders seems to encourage for an apostate Hawke). Ferelden could be more of the more stable regions, if King Alistair is in charge of the nation, given his support for the mages governing themselves, and the possible presence of the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle.

[DKJaigen]

[quote]Xewaka wrote...

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...
[quote]Xewaka wrote...
[quote]DKJaigen wrote...
Because in your scenario people are all acting like people.[/quote]
I repaired your post so that it makes sense.[/quote]
So every person in thedas is a moronic biggot **** and the favorite pasttime includes rape and abuse? I think your playing FATAL instead of DA here mate .
And for the record not even in the medieval times people the way Dave described. And the DA is a considerable better world then our own medieval world. [/quote]

No, you fail to see the point. Individuals are smart and reasonable. People are a stupid, frightful lot. The more persons you bunch together in people, the dumber they get. Thus, panic-induced lashing and escalation of hostility due to social agitation is the expected result.

Good you realise the mob is a stupid thing. But what you fail to realise is that the mob is easy to manipulate. Some charity work and some counter propaganda and you have the mob eating out of your hand.

Also, citing obscure manuals of lacking judgement and terrible quality do not further your point.

LOL wut?

Citing in-lore examples (Such as the City Elf Origin and the fate of Shianni therein) do better to support claims.

An isoloted incident.

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...
[quote]GodWood wrote...
The non-mages are afraid because a bunch of people who can explode you with their finger tips are now runnning around free.[/quote]
Ever heard of PR? Mages need to keep a low profile for a while but simply set up a few hospitals and that fear will dissapear. [/quote]
That worked so well for Anders. You know, the terrorist abomination that blowed up a chruch.

It did. He even had people willing to kill or lie for him. The chantry bombing is a seperated event.

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...
[quote]GodWood wrote...
The non-mages are annoyed because their new oppressive mage overlords are taxing them.[/quote]
And this will just not happen.[/quote]
The stablished precedent indicates otherwise.

Enlighten me then. Unless the nobility and all the rulers of thedas suddenly want to go tevinter style i doubt i see this happening

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...

[quote]GodWood wrote...
The non-mages fear the mages who are now turning into abominations because they can't handle the stresses of the real world.[/quote]
If they can handle the circle they can handle the outside world [/quote]
Yes, if they can handle having lodging and manutention as well as clothing and other luxury items handed to them, they can handle famine an poverty and actual hard work. Oh wait.

They can shoot fireballs. They can find employment as a mercenary in the very least. Also the circles are selfsustaining. And no the tranquilty rites will still be done because mages will not allow weak minded people mages to join the circle.

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...


[quote]GodWood wrote...
The non-mages are sick of being oppressed by this minority and attack.[/quote]
1. this will not happen. 2 they only get sick if the mages rule badly[/quote]
BEcause authoritarian overlords with clear powers and privileges unaccesible to the subjects prove to be such good rulers.

Perhaps , perhaps not. But unaccesible powers doesnt make a good ruler.


[quote]DKJaigen wrote...
[quote]GodWood wrote...
I'm sorry but how do any of these things make the non-mages idiots DK?[/quote]
You put the mages in the worst possible extremist angle. Then yes this will happen. But this not happen given the current political climate so yours and daves arguments are nothing more but fallacies.[/quote]
Mages are put in the light precedent paints them, nothing more. Also, the political climate is that mages are attacking the very institution of belief and culture of half the continent. That does not spell roses and sunshine.

The mob is not important as they are powerless. The nobility however is far more important. If the templar-mage war takes to long the nobility will demand that the templars will make peace.

[/quote]

[DKJaigen]

GodWood wrote...

Ever heard of PR? Mages need to keep a low profile for a while but simply set up a few hospitals and that fear will dissapear.

You seem to have this childish notion that the mages want to integrate themselves among the peasant folk under the rule of their feudal lords.

Oh no i want them to stay the **** away from the common people.

If the mages actually did successfully overthrow the templars/chantry they'd have the world at their feet.

Yeah because the chantry is the only military power in thedas. What about the nobles, knights and the city guards?

Many would take advantage of this and seek power over the weaker humans.

We all do that. And i do this myself as well being a manager myself. But with that kind of power comes responsibility. And if you dont like this go to north-korea

And this will just not happen.

And why not? It's a possible outcome.

No unless all of the thedas nobility suddenly wishes to join the tevinter imperium or templar-mage war springs so out of control that the tevinter imperium has little or no opposition left.

If they can handle the circle they can handle the outside world

Hardly.
Under the circle they have free food, accomodation, education and protection.
Outside the circle they have none of these things plus the added negative of a society of people who hate and fear them.

Who said the circle will cease to exist?

1. this will not happen.

Why won't this happen? At least try to justify your childish idealism.

Idealism? LOL. You mean cold hard fact. In your scenario the mage will win the war not only against the templars but against every single nation in thedas. And while im optimistic about their chances against the templars. But going against all armies is suicide. In victory the mages will demand freedom and that the political and military power of the chantry is dissolved. But the nobility will demand that they will have political power.

[Beerfish]

DKJaigen wrote...



Common sense must be a rare commodity in canada. Because in your scenario people are all acting like idiots.
Furthermore i dont mind a tevinter imperium in this case because 4 out of 5 cases shows that the people in thedas are indeed brain dead morons and should be kept on a leash.

You just made his point with your last sentence better than all of the points Dave put forth.

[ReallyRue]

Personally, I don't think the mages could win. The best they could do is run off somewhere and try and make themselves into some kind of isolationist society. After all, most of the countries in Thedas are Andrastians and officially share it's views on mages (they have Circles, don't they?), so they are highly unlikely to assist the mages (not all of whom will attempt to fight a war, some will just go to ground), and some countries will probably put their forces behind the Chantry's.

A lot of it probably depends on the public. If they support the mages, their leaders might be more likely to help them, but if they support the Chantry, they are probably more likely to help them.

And at the end of DA2, doesn't Varric/Cassandra say something about how some templars have gone rogue, either because they've abandoned the Chantry, or because they think they can hunt mages better themselves? Even if the mages somehow got rid of the Chantry, there would still be templars.

[KenKenpachi]

Tevinter. If the Chantry will not see to it to stop this madness, then we of the Qun will. *Crosses Arms*

[GavrielKay]

We've only seen a few evil genius type mages. Most of the mages in the DA universe who aren't good are crazy. A crazy mage one step away from becoming an abomination is not capable of setting up Tevinter 2.

I don't see where we have evidence that any mage who grew up outside of Tevinter would want to create that environment for themselves. From what Fenris says, even most mages have it rough in Tevinter, because only those at the very top enjoy much and even those people have to be on constant guard against young up-and-comers.

Tevinter truly sounds like a lousy place to be even for mages.

I think newly free mages would be far more likely to try to blend in with everyone else and live in peace and quiet than they are to set themselves up for the cutthroat craziness that is Tevinter.

Mages aren't purple or 10 feet tall or anything. If they want to blend in they can. We have no idea how many apostates are doing exactly that at any given time. So the whole notion that they'll automatically be so harassed by the populace that they will have to strike back and set themselves up as overlords is only one of many possibilities.

I think it's just as likely that the mages will self-police in order to maintain their newfound freedom as anything else.