185 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

KenKenpachi wrote...

Tevinter. If the Chantry will not see to it to stop this madness, then we of the Qun will. *Crosses Arms*

You can't even find a book for years in a city filled with thieves and incompetants.  A city so morally bankrupt and so beneath you that you feel the need to purge it .

Your success or lack there of at almost everything you put your hand to leaves me with a total lack of confidence in you.  (Scratches an imaginery horn on his head and smiles)

[LobselVith8]

GavrielKay wrote...

We've only seen a few evil genius type mages. Most of the mages in the DA universe who aren't good are crazy. A crazy mage one step away from becoming an abomination is not capable of setting up Tevinter 2.

I don't see where we have evidence that any mage who grew up outside of Tevinter would want to create that environment for themselves. From what Fenris says, even most mages have it rough in Tevinter, because only those at the very top enjoy much and even those people have to be on constant guard against young up-and-comers.

I agree - crazy is the operative word to describe the mages who our protagonist deals with in Kirkwall. We've typically seen insane mages as antagonists in the narrative, from Decimus to Grace. I don't think insanity is typical for mages across the continent, and we already have the Band of Three to explain the 'behavior' of some of the denizens of Kirkwall. The Mages Collective polices mages, and even a moderate like First Enchanter Irving took the possibility of free mages policing themselves (without the Chantry or the Order of Templars) seriously if The Warden (from the Circle) requests for his people to be given their independence.

GavrielKay wrote...

Tevinter truly sounds like a lousy place to be even for mages.

I agree - Tevinter enslaves mages and non-mages alike.

GavrielKay wrote...

I think newly free mages would be far more likely to try to blend in with everyone else and live in peace and quiet than they are to set themselves up for the cutthroat craziness that is Tevinter.

Mages aren't purple or 10 feet tall or anything. If they want to blend in they can. We have no idea how many apostates are doing exactly that at any given time. So the whole notion that they'll automatically be so harassed by the populace that they will have to strike back and set themselves up as overlords is only one of many possibilities.

I think it's just as likely that the mages will self-police in order to maintain their newfound freedom as anything else.

That's precisely what the ruler of Ferelden argues would be a good idea for the Circle of Ferelden if the Hero of Ferelden asks for his people to be freed. The people of Ferelden can rally around the Amell or Surana Warden as their nation's Hero. The people of Kirkwall will accept Hawke as their Champion, even if he's an apostate. I don't think that a future for mages and non-mages in a post-mage revolution Thedas is impossible. Anders was helping the people, and apparently none of the refugees from Ferelden turned their back on him - in fact, some were going to murder Hawke because they were concerned that Anders was in danger.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well, that probably changed when Anders decided to blow up their church...

[Xilizhra]

No one seems to remember Anders, and no one's version of events other than Varric's is that accurate.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, that probably changed when Anders decided to blow up their church...

Most of the people who would know who was responsible are either dead or keeping quiet about the specifics.

You could just as easily put out propaganda that it was a last ditch attempt by the Qunari to take out Kirkwall in revenge for the death of the Arishok.  Or that it was a mage, but the other mages killed him for justice (not the entity, the concept).  There are ways to manage that information if anyone actually tries.  Plus, most folks will only hear rumors and tall tales about it anyway.

[TheCreeper]

Yeah, even high ranking members of the chantry were apparently unaware of anders involvement in the chantry explosion (makes sense considering everyone their when anders made his speech is dead or missing at this point). I imagine (assuming mage ending) that mages probably think the templars did it to justify the annulment and the Templars think Hawke did it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

For a bunch of people who prizes themselves on their "morally correct" point of view, you mage-supporters are remarkably quick to suggest mages should use lies, deciet and manipulations to improve their lives...

Anyway... The destruction of the Chantry in Kirkwall is most likely one of those happenings which won't be spun like anyhting else than an act of terrorism from a mage. The blast itself was of obvious magical nature, and the tensions between mages and Templars in Kirkwall had been at a boiling point for a long time. The mages won't be able to spin that anyway other way. They can tell it like it was though: the act of a single man.
Nor is the event of Kirkwall's Chantry blowing up something that will be "just a rumor", especially not since it ignited a continent spanning war.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

For a bunch of people who prizes themselves on their "morally correct" point of view, you mage-supporters are remarkably quick to suggest mages should use lies, deciet and manipulations to improve their lives...

Anyway... The destruction of the Chantry in Kirkwall is most likely one of those happenings which won't be spun like anyhting else than an act of terrorism from a mage. The blast itself was of obvious magical nature, and the tensions between mages and Templars in Kirkwall had been at a boiling point for a long time. The mages won't be able to spin that anyway other way. They can tell it like it was though: the act of a single man.
Nor is the event of Kirkwall's Chantry blowing up something that will be "just a rumor", especially not since it ignited a continent spanning war.

1) Everyone lies.

2) While the bomb and its ingredients are magical in nature, there is nothing to suggest that only a mage could create such a bomb. One of the things that Anders' bomb did was show that a mage isn't the only one who can create a devastating force that can annihilate a city.

[EmperorSahlertz]

1) That doesn't make it "right".

2) How does a mage creating a magical bomb, show that not just mages can create magical bombs?....

[TheCreeper]

And Mages could always argue that the Templars forced a mage to help them make the bomb. The destruction of the Kirkwall chantry may have set off a war and we may know the details but I don't think most of Thedas knows any of the details.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

1) That doesn't make it "right".

2) How does a mage creating a magical bomb, show that not just mages can create magical bombs?....

1) Well, it can be right and the ethical course of action sometimes, but taking issue with mages for lying when everyone lies is just stupid

2) A mage created a bomb that used magical ingredients, yes. But it's simply a recipe for a bomb, which anyone can follow. Dworkin made lyrium explosives. That doesn't mean that only Dwarves can make lyrium explosives.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 octobre 2011 - 06:16 .

[blothulfur]

So why exactly are the lyrium tainted owed even more freedom than that provided by the luxurious dens of decadence they now idle in? And with all of these freedoms that this minority will enjoy, that the vast majority of peoples in Thedas neither know nor can even imagine what makes them think they will be able to assimilate with those masses, without once again being subject to the laws of the feudal kingdoms.

There is no logical answer to these questions other than the fact that the mage rebellion is the wrong rebellion and the lyrium tainted are not seeking equality with the downtrodden majority but superiority. They seek a new Tevinter at the behest of their demonic masters, like the good catspaws that they are.

Weak, spoiled and soft of both mind and body the mages need to be constrained more thoroughly than they are at present, they need to be leashed and controlled at all times. They deserve nothing less and giving the raving beast freedom above the common man would be an act of madness.

[GavrielKay]

blothulfur wrote...

So why exactly are the lyrium tainted owed even more freedom than that provided by the luxurious dens of decadence they now idle in? And with all of these freedoms that this minority will enjoy, that the vast majority of peoples in Thedas neither know nor can even imagine what makes them think they will be able to assimilate with those masses, without once again being subject to the laws of the feudal kingdoms.

There is no logical answer to these questions other than the fact that the mage rebellion is the wrong rebellion and the lyrium tainted are not seeking equality with the downtrodden majority but superiority. They seek a new Tevinter at the behest of their demonic masters, like the good catspaws that they are.

Weak, spoiled and soft of both mind and body the mages need to be constrained more thoroughly than they are at present, they need to be leashed and controlled at all times. They deserve nothing less and giving the raving beast freedom above the common man would be an act of madness.

Wow.

Geez.  Where to begin?  Luxurious dens of decadence?  By which I assume you mean the circles?  Where mages are kept imprisoned and denied familes and freedoms?  Where Templars can abuse, rape and Tranquil them?  Yeah, I'd trade all that decadence for a nice farm hand job any day. 

You use phrases designed to de-humanize mages in order to make them seem less sympathetic.  It's a common enough debating tactic, but also transparent and unhelpful.  Calling mages "lyrium tainted" only shows your lack of anything actually defensible to say in the argument.  Or, calls you out as a troll.  I'm really not sure which at this point.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Blothulfur's so Qunari, even his avatar's human face looks Qunari!

[Xilizhra]

I propose we all stop responding to blothufur until he stops pretending DA2 didn't happen.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

For a bunch of people who prizes themselves on their "morally correct" point of view, you mage-supporters are remarkably quick to suggest mages should use lies, deciet and manipulations to improve their lives...

Anyway... The destruction of the Chantry in Kirkwall is most likely one of those happenings which won't be spun like anyhting else than an act of terrorism from a mage. The blast itself was of obvious magical nature, and the tensions between mages and Templars in Kirkwall had been at a boiling point for a long time. The mages won't be able to spin that anyway other way. They can tell it like it was though: the act of a single man.
Nor is the event of Kirkwall's Chantry blowing up something that will be "just a rumor", especially not since it ignited a continent spanning war.

1.All war is deception - tzun tsu

2. Not even the chantry knew what happend. that magic was involved was clear but why the chantry was blown up is a mystery to many.

[EmperorSahlertz]

GavrielKay wrote...
Geez.  Where to begin?  Luxurious dens of decadence?  By which I assume you mean the circles?  Where mages are kept imprisoned and denied familes and freedoms?  Where Templars can abuse, rape and Tranquil them?  Yeah, I'd trade all that decadence for a nice farm hand job any day.  

No. No a Templar can't do any of those things. They do, sure, but they aren't allowed. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if tehre actually were a Circle where a Templar got raped by mages, mage got raped by mages, or Templar getting raped by Templars. These things happen, but they are never allowed.

[Wulfram]

TheCreeper wrote...

Yeah, even high ranking members of the chantry were apparently unaware of anders involvement in the chantry

Why do you think that?  I think it's fairly clear that Cassandra did know about Anders - certainly her tone when she refers to "that Warden, Anders" shows that she had some reason to hate him.

Modifié par Wulfram, 19 octobre 2011 - 06:49 .

[blothulfur]

And you over sentimentalise the plight of this minority Gavriel when the vast majority of your feudal slaves lead far worse lives as cattle to the nobility. Their lives, families, vocation and health all hanging on the whims of their betters merest word, this is what it means to be a peasant or a serf in your feudal kingdoms. Rape, beatings, poverty, starvation and endless toil on anothers land until death takes them at a young age, an abhorrent waste of life.

A slave knowing neither freedom or certainty, who knows neither the protection of the law or equality and doomed to their place by a happenstance of birth no matter their abilities. This is why banditry and lawlessness are rife in Thedas, because for the vast majority born outside of havens such as the mage towers there is no recourse and no safety from the illogical rule of the inbred fat swine who grunt of divine right while rolling in their own filth and corruption.

Your rebellion is the wrong rebellion, you may not see this but when the ever victorious come to free your slaves then you will be made to see by the Qun.

[Asch Lavigne]

Given that the war started (and seemed to still be ongoing from what I got from Cassandra) I'd hate it if it was over by the start of DA3. I don't need DA3's plot to be about this, but I'd like to be able to choose how the whole thing ends.

[GavrielKay]

Wulfram wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

Yeah, even high ranking members of the chantry were apparently unaware of anders involvement in the chantry

Why do you think that?  I think it's fairly clear that Cassandra did know about Anders - certainly her tone when she refers to "that Warden, Anders" shows that she had some reason to hate him.

She could have hated Anders because he spent years escaping and evading the Templars.  And also possibly because he'd be under heavy suspicion for having murdered a (former) Templar in the Grey Wardens after merging with Justice.  Or she just hates apostates.  Or she's just mean.  She did practially kidnap Varric after all.

[Wulfram]

Fereldan doesn't have serfs or slaves. But even an Orlesian serf at least has a free mind rather than being shackled to the false and cowardly certitude of the Qun.

(I don't think the Free Marches has serfdom either, though I welcome correction on this point.)

[CrimsonZephyr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
Geez.  Where to begin?  Luxurious dens of decadence?  By which I assume you mean the circles?  Where mages are kept imprisoned and denied familes and freedoms?  Where Templars can abuse, rape and Tranquil them?  Yeah, I'd trade all that decadence for a nice farm hand job any day.  

No. No a Templar can't do any of those things. They do, sure, but they aren't allowed. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if tehre actually were a Circle where a Templar got raped by mages, mage got raped by mages, or Templar getting raped by Templars. These things happen, but they are never allowed.

How are we defining allowed? There's allowance by encouragement and then there's allowance by negligence. I mean, I doubt there were templars who told their subordinates, "Go forth and rape!" But, with the unilateral and unchallenged power that Templars have when it comes to law enforcement, it isn't unusual that this would happen. Mages don't exactly have methods or fora to accuse templars of wrongdoing - who would trust their accusations when the central dogma is that mages are fundamentally untrustworthy? Add to the fact that the Seekers, the Templars' nominal internal affairs division, is both secretive and small in number, acting far too late most of the time. The only discipline a Templar receives is from a Templar, and when they're beating down mages left and right, what's one more beating?

That's why neither faction can truly police by themselves, it has to be a shared effort - which won't be easy, but will have a greater reward in the long run. This is why internal affairs officers exist in actual police forces, that's why appeals courts exist - because law enforcement had to evolve from being collections of thugs with bloody cudgels and had to make some assurances that the people enforcing the law are also following the law.

[TheCreeper]

Wulfram wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

Yeah, even high ranking members of the chantry were apparently unaware of anders involvement in the chantry

Why do you think that?  I think it's fairly clear that Cassandra did know about Anders - certainly her tone when she refers to "that Warden, Anders" shows that she had some reason to hate him.

That didn't sound like that to me, personally  It just meant that Cassandra knew Hawke was working with a former grey warden mage, which is cause for concern considering the Chantry knows the Grey Wardens allow their mages to do normally forbidden stuff, A rebe warden mage means you got someone who might have known dangerous stuff and was rather free to do whatever they wanted. For most of the Game Cassandra is trying to blame hawke for what happened, at no point does she try to blame anders.

[GavrielKay]

blothulfur wrote...

And you over sentimentalise the plight of this minority Gavriel when the vast majority of your feudal slaves lead far worse lives as cattle to the nobility. Their lives, families, vocation and health all hanging on the whims of their betters merest word, this is what it means to be a peasant or a serf in your feudal kingdoms. Rape, beatings, poverty, starvation and endless toil on anothers land until death takes them at a young age, an abhorrent waste of life.

A slave knowing neither freedom or certainty, who knows neither the protection of the law or equality and doomed to their place by a happenstance of birth no matter their abilities. This is why banditry and lawlessness are rife in Thedas, because for the vast majority born outside of havens such as the mage towers there is no recourse and no safety from the illogical rule of the inbred fat swine who grunt of divine right while rolling in their own filth and corruption.

Your rebellion is the wrong rebellion, you may not see this but when the ever victorious come to free your slaves then you will be made to see by the Qun.

First off, I really am thinking you're just trolling the forum due to the extreme nature of your views.  Making up your own facts to support your point of view is either a symptom of extremism or just a form of entertainment for you.

We have no gameplay evidence that life for the common folk is as bad as you claim.  In fact, when we're told about how horrible things were under the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden, much of it was as you say, and it seemed to be a big change in the lives of the folks suffereing under it.  Thus, normal conditions must be better than that.

Anyway, I'll not be replying to you any further.  It's just too obvious that facts aren't part of your debating repertoire.