185 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Anyway, I'll not be replying to you any further. It's just too obvious that facts aren't part of your debating repertoire.

Note that this includes everything that happened in DA2.

[blothulfur]

Feudalism is slavery for those at the lowest level and any scholar may tell you that this is factually correct. Free bas minds should be able to deal with such concepts easily or are they not free at all, only recognising what they wish to believe no matter the truth.

I am no troll, I am a dissenting opinion.

[Xilizhra]

I am no troll, I am a dissenting opinion.

I'd believe this if you didn't maintain the opinion that everything in DA2 was a lie.

[blothulfur]

I do not, I merely do not believe the lies presented by a fat dwarven braggart with an agenda. Why would any logically minded ashkaari base his beliefs on a single witness, biases taints all evidence and so the wise man seeks more.

[Xilizhra]

Also, your constant use of physical qualities as insults is annoying the heck out of me. That ignores, too, Bioware's own statements about DA2 being canon, which it is.

[blothulfur]

A work of entertainment is formed by its consumers as much as its developers thus my statements are as valid as theirs. I agree Varric should get more exercise.

[Xilizhra]

Then we'll be basing our thoughts on different realities and will never be able to come to any kind of conclusion, thus our arguments will be entirely pointless. This is why I recommended that people not respond to you until you start acknowledging DA2 as having happened.

[GavrielKay]

Annoying troll is annoying.

[blothulfur]

I have never acknowledged that it did not, I merely approach it with an open mind and a scholars greatest tool logic.

[Gotholhorakh]

@Biothulfur - re: feudalism this is what I was trying to say.

You don't win a war in a feudal/mediaeval setting and then worry about how you're going to earn your living working on farms, or how your "PR" looks.

You are in power (you did just tear down all opposition for your freedom, right?), and this is how a world divided up by nobles works: Those who have power control the land and the trade and the workforce with their power, and all three pay for the privilege of their existence.

As people in this feudal and/or mediaeval setting, who by necessity seized control of the lyrium trade, destroyed all forceful opposition that could be mustered and can kill anyone with a word, you take fiefs, you take power, you take tax.

"What if we don't want to?" people might ask. Well, the harshest reality you will meet very quickly is that if you do not, you will very quickly have it taken and wielded by someone else - and guess who the first and most dangerous heads on the block will be? Might it be the mages that recently won a terrifying victory? Yes, so it's power-grab and rule justly or become a head-in-a-basket.

Mages may want to act ethically and treat people well because of alignment, for the greater good, or pragmatically to make things easier to manage, but having taken power for yourself there is no question of wafting about not exercising it.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 19 octobre 2011 - 07:44 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

He does usually sound like something a Qunari might believe but Surely if blothulfur was completely in character then he'd not be able to understand what Dragon Age 2 was at all. Qunari don't have video games.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 octobre 2011 - 07:49 .

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

For a bunch of people who prizes themselves on their "morally correct" point of view, you mage-supporters are remarkably quick to suggest mages should use lies, deciet and manipulations to improve their lives...

As far as I'm concerned the Chantry has been using lies, deceit and manipulation for 900 years to keep the general populace in fear of the mages.  Turnabout is generally considered fair play.  Anyway, once it's a war, using lies to prevent the general slaughter of mages by an enraged populace would seem justified.  Regardless of how bad the crime was, it was committed by a single person, not all mages.  It should not be used to justify punishment for anyone besides Anders himself - who quite possibly didn't survive to even see the war actually begin.

The blast itself was of obvious magical nature

Most people wouldn't have seen the actual blast (and survived to tell it).  Plus, obviously magical is an interpretation and not necessarily a fact.

Nor is the event of Kirkwall's Chantry blowing up something that will be "just a rumor", especially not since it ignited a continent spanning war.

Certainly the event itself would be easy enough to verify.  How it happened and why would be much more subject to rumor however.

[blothulfur]

I am in total agreement with you Gotholhorakh, furthermore the greatest power lies in the hands of those individuals who are most willing to do anything to achieve dominance. Blood mages and those who traffic with demons will naturally seize power just as the most ruthless and amoral leaders have always done. History in Thedas has always been shaped by conquerors such as emperor Drakon of Orlais and the archons of Tevinter.

Thus another Tevinter will arise whatever the founding motives, which I do not believe are as just or transparent as many say they are.

[KenKenpachi]

GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

For a bunch of people who prizes themselves on their "morally correct" point of view, you mage-supporters are remarkably quick to suggest mages should use lies, deciet and manipulations to improve their lives...

As far as I'm concerned the Chantry has been using lies, deceit and manipulation for 900 years to keep the general populace in fear of the mages.  Turnabout is generally considered fair play.  Anyway, once it's a war, using lies to prevent the general slaughter of mages by an enraged populace would seem justified.  Regardless of how bad the crime was, it was committed by a single person, not all mages.  It should not be used to justify punishment for anyone besides Anders himself - who quite possibly didn't survive to even see the war actually begin.

That is so true, because when the mages fought for there freedom (though some of them did stay with the towers) they totally did not use blood magic, or summon demons, or turn into hideous monsters like the Chantry and Qun claimed they would do if left to themselves.  So yeah the Chantry is telling some big lies right there, and given the other Towers fell or were fled, I say its safe to assume the mages didn't go "Oh hi Mr Templar can we go?" as much as "SPIRITS OF EVIL I CALL YOU FORTH SLAY THE TEMPLARS"

Nevermind blowing up a place of worship when the head of said group in that region was going to drop the hammer on the fanatic and soften things for the mages. A sollution that might have carried elsewhere.

But its all chantry lies!!! Not one mage sacrificed the innocent, consorted with demons, or even turned into them. As they say all may be fair in war, but clearly the chantry lies arn't, least not in reguards to mages, or the Tevinter. The maker and such that may be debated and called on, but calling **** the player sees reguardless of path taken, as chantry lies....thats streatching it.


Besides even anderson said in DA:O A  as part of his being free speech "And throw lightning at fools" such an enlightend man...unless your the poor powerless sob getting shocked for sport. (or was it fireballs? point is though maybe in jest, which I doubt.)

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 19 octobre 2011 - 08:02 .

[GavrielKay]

KenKenpachi wrote...

Nevermind blowing up a place of worship when the head of said group in that region was going to drop the hammer on the fanatic and soften things for the mages. A sollution that might have carried elsewhere.

There was evidence of this?  All I ever saw was Elthina making excuses and saying if the Maker wanted to fix it he was welcome to do so.

But its all chantry lies!!! Not one mage sacrificed the innocent, consorted with demons, or even turned into them. As they say all may be fair in war, but clearly the chantry lies arn't, least not in reguards to mages, or the Tevinter. The maker and such that may be debated and called on, but calling **** the player sees reguardless of path taken, as chantry lies....thats streatching it.

I didn't say the Chantry told only lies or that mages can't possibly go bad.  But we see other cultures that manage to get along with their mages without locking them up or being enslaved by them.  So going so far as to say all mages need to be kept under lock and key to protect everyone else is a lie.

[Wulfram]

GavrielKay wrote...

There was evidence of this?  All I ever saw was Elthina making excuses and saying if the Maker wanted to fix it he was welcome to do so.

Well, Meredith seemed pretty determined that Orsino not reach Elthina.  Suggests she at least wasn't confident about he outcome.

[Relshar]

The thing with revolutions there is always a civil war afterwards. So the mages win, but after a time and no final decision made as to what who should govern them. The mages would enter a civil war. One side would eventualy win and then things would settle down.
If the wining side wanted control over nations then you can expect a cleansing of sorts going to happen with the Chantry and the people who oppose the mages.
If the wining side has no intrest in goverment then they would probably end up splintering out and taking up residence in small out the way places.
The problem with the Chantry is that the religious leaders are fanatics of their faith. They read the word of Andraste and so place the mages in gilded cages. I think if Andraste was alive to see this done to what she considers "her people" and "in her name" she would lead a holy crusade against the Chantry.
And the one thing that oppressed people long for is freedom from the shackles. If enough voices shout out then someone is going to hear.

[KJandrew]

It's naive to think that at least a bunch of mages won't try and become overlords. Throughout history people have declared themselves above others just because they're bigger or have a sword or an army. So when you have the ability to kill people by pointing at them with either a stick or just your finger at least a few are just going to think that it's their right to control those weaker i.e everyone else.

[TheCreeper]

Wulfram wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

There was evidence of this?  All I ever saw was Elthina making excuses and saying if the Maker wanted to fix it he was welcome to do so.

Well, Meredith seemed pretty determined that Orsino not reach Elthina.  Suggests she at least wasn't confident about he outcome.

Becauser Meredith had already sent requests to enact the right of annulment which would have caused Elthina to put her foot down and considering how paranoid/crazy meredith was...she would not have taken that well at all . You know if anders had waited a day things probably would have gotten almost as bad as it did normally.

[darkrose]

Wulfram wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

There was evidence of this?  All I ever saw was Elthina making excuses and saying if the Maker wanted to fix it he was welcome to do so.

Well, Meredith seemed pretty determined that Orsino not reach Elthina.  Suggests she at least wasn't confident about he outcome.

I suspect Meredith was more concerned that Elthina would find out Meredith had done an end run around her. It's one thing if she can tell Elthina, "Oops, the Divine said I could; my bad" after the mages are all dead; if Elthina gets the clue beforehand, she might actually have been forced to wag her finger at Meredith or something.

[DPSSOC]

DKJaigen wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
No, you fail to see the point. Individuals are smart and reasonable. People are a stupid, frightful lot. The more persons you bunch together in people, the dumber they get. Thus, panic-induced lashing and escalation of hostility due to social agitation is the expected result.

Good you realise the mob is a stupid thing. But what you fail to realise is that the mob is easy to manipulate. Some charity work and some counter propaganda and you have the mob eating out of your hand.

Yes because all it took was a few black philanthropists and a positive image to abolish the KKK.  Wait I'm missing something there.

DKJaigen wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
The stablished precedent indicates otherwise.

Enlighten me then. Unless the nobility and all the rulers of thedas suddenly want to go tevinter style i doubt i see this happening

Military conquest, monopolization of trade, use of magic to destabilize national economies (cause flooding in farms, collapse mines, etc.), blood magic, the list of possibilities goes on.

DKJaigen wrote...

GodWood wrote...
If the mages actually did successfully overthrow the templars/chantry they'd have the world at their feet.

Yeah because the chantry is the only military power in thedas. What about the nobles, knights and the city guards?

They're the only military power in Thedas with the ability to disrupt magic.  If the mages were able to defeat the Templars exactly what kind of chance do conventional militaries have?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Exactly what lies have the Chantry been spreading about mages, to keep the populace in perpetual fear of mages?

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Exactly what lies have the Chantry been spreading about mages, to keep the populace in perpetual fear of mages?

Going by gameplay, it is a lie that mages are constantly under seige by demons ready to turn into an abomination while walking to get a sandwich.  Mage Hawke and Mage Warden and any other mage who follows the PC around never seems to have a problem with this.

Also, it is a lie that all/most mages are hoping to break out of circles in order to establish a second Tevinter style empire.  Precious few mages that we talk to have any such designs.  Those who do (Idunna?) are also completely wacko and not nearly as much of a threat as a genuinely clever opponent would be.

It also seems to be a deliberate mis-interpretation of the Chant of Light that mages shouldn't be allowed any freedom based on the idea that "magic should serve man and not rule over him."  Or that magic is a curse rather than a gift with potential drawbacks.

They also don't seem to go to much trouble to spread the word of helpful skills of mages, like healing or defense of the citizenry.  At the battle of Ostagar, the Chantry cleric didn't even want to let a mage light a simple signal fire.

[DKJaigen]

DPSSOC wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
No, you fail to see the point. Individuals are smart and reasonable. People are a stupid, frightful lot. The more persons you bunch together in people, the dumber they get. Thus, panic-induced lashing and escalation of hostility due to social agitation is the expected result.

Good you realise the mob is a stupid thing. But what you fail to realise is that the mob is easy to manipulate. Some charity work and some counter propaganda and you have the mob eating out of your hand.

Yes because all it took was a few black philanthropists and a positive image to abolish the KKK.  Wait I'm missing something there.

Are you forgetting Marthin Luther King?

DKJaigen wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
The stablished precedent indicates otherwise.

Enlighten me then. Unless the nobility and all the rulers of thedas suddenly want to go tevinter style i doubt i see this happening

Military conquest, monopolization of trade, use of magic to destabilize national economies (cause flooding in farms, collapse mines, etc.), blood magic, the list of possibilities goes on.

These are only military actions. But the post war policies is what will the mages.

DKJaigen wrote...

GodWood wrote...
If the mages actually did successfully overthrow the templars/chantry they'd have the world at their feet.

Yeah because the chantry is the only military power in thedas. What about the nobles, knights and the city guards?

They're the only military power in Thedas with the ability to disrupt magic.  If the mages were able to defeat the Templars exactly what kind of chance do conventional militaries have?

The conventional military has a number of advantages.

-Better supply lines (no need for lyrium)
-Better disicpline
-more numbers for every templar their are no doubt 10 normal soldiers.
-Cannot be bribed with lyrium
-No mental degeneration if they dont get lyrium and can forage for food and water.
-Furthermore i dont think the templars are effective in large open battles vs mages as they are not trained to do so.
- better CQC skills because they focus on it.
-Better morals depending on country (templars are recruited for their faith not moral compass.  Furthermore templars can justify crimes with their chantry rhetoric making it easier for them to do so.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 20 octobre 2011 - 08:27 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Exactly what lies have the Chantry been spreading about mages, to keep the populace in perpetual fear of mages?

Going by gameplay, it is a lie that mages are constantly under seige by demons ready to turn into an abomination while walking to get a sandwich.  Mage Hawke and Mage Warden and any other mage who follows the PC around never seems to have a problem with this.

And going by the actual lore, a mage is under threat of possession every single time they cast a spell. We got numerous sources saying as much. So that isn't a lie at all.

GavrielKay wrote...
Also, it is a lie that all/most mages are hoping to break out of circles in order to establish a second Tevinter style empire.  Precious few mages that we talk to have any such designs.  Those who do (Idunna?) are also completely wacko and not nearly as much of a threat as a genuinely clever opponent would be.

It is a likely natural otcome if mages were to be free. Like it or not, the naturally powerful will always seek to dominate the less powerful. It is a natural part of life, and mages are not raised above it.

GavrielKay wrote...
It also seems to be a deliberate mis-interpretation of the Chant of Light that mages shouldn't be allowed any freedom based on the idea that "magic should serve man and not rule over him."  Or that magic is a curse rather than a gift with potential drawbacks.

Mages aren't denied families and titles because the Chant says so. They are denied such things to make them less appetizing targets for demons. The Circle (ie. the mages themselves) agreed to the set of rules the Circles would be run by, which no doubt included these from the start. Even so, it is not a lie, since the CHantry makes no effort to hide exactly why the mages are denied such things.

GavrielKay wrote...
They also don't seem to go to much trouble to spread the word of helpful skills of mages, like healing or defense of the citizenry.  At the battle of Ostagar, the Chantry cleric didn't even want to let a mage light a simple signal fire.

The Chantry doesn't withold infomation about the usefulness of mages. They jsut aren't stupid enough to actually not tell the public about the dangers mages pose. Dangers which some feel far outweigh their usefulness. It isn't an unknown that (some) mages can heal wounds, but it isn't an unknown that (all) mages are under threat of possession either.