360 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvianus]

krissyjf wrote...

Aviena wrote...

Disclaimer: have not read whole nine pages, just want to chip in.
As a female player who almost exlusively plays female protagonists, I don't feel that Bioware has ever sidelined my character because of her gender. Sure, maleShep/Hawke are always on the boxes, but when we get to the important stuff (the story!!11!1) Bioware always balances the losses with gains, for both genders.

But actually, that is part of the problem. DA2 become too gender neutral, in terms of how both Hawke versions acted and reacted. Other than having the voice, body, and clothing of a female, everything else about FemHawke was exactly the same as Male Hawke.

I'm sorry, but males and females are very different in terms of how they each think, act, and relate to the world/situations, and people around them. Just ask my husband. Even after almost 25 years of marriage, he still can't figure out how my mind works.

So even when given a choice of gender in games, you really are just playing the same character. The only difference comes down to outward appearance.

But that's want many female players here, especially on the mass effect board. They want femshep or femshawk gender neutral. They are the first ones to ask for that, not bioware which follows, nor the male players. That's why Hawk has exactly the same clothes as malehawk in MoA, for example (clothing not suitable for her body. Or femshep who sit as a man with a skirt ) But I agree with you.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 19 octobre 2011 - 06:36 .

[maxernst]

krissyjf wrote...

Aviena wrote...

Disclaimer: have not read whole nine pages, just want to chip in.
As a female player who almost exlusively plays female protagonists, I don't feel that Bioware has ever sidelined my character because of her gender. Sure, maleShep/Hawke are always on the boxes, but when we get to the important stuff (the story!!11!1) Bioware always balances the losses with gains, for both genders.

But actually, that is part of the problem. DA2 become too gender neutral, in terms of how both Hawke versions acted and reacted. Other than having the voice, body, and clothing of a female, everything else about FemHawke was exactly the same as Male Hawke.

I'm sorry, but males and females are very different in terms of how they each think, act, and relate to the world/situations, and people around them. Just ask my husband. Even after almost 25 years of marriage, he still can't figure out how my mind works.

So even when given a choice of gender in games, you really are just playing the same character. The only difference comes down to outward appearance.

Well, first of all, I don't believe men and women are as different as all that, and I believe most of the differences that exist are culturally created, not innate. The differences between individual women are FAR greater than the differences between and men and women, in my opinion.

In any event, you're not playing the same character.  You have a variety of dialogue choices.  If you perceive particular choices as things only a man would say, then you're free to make other choices.  If Shepard is so obviously written be a male character, why is it that many people (most?) find fem Shep's voice acting preferable? 

Modifié par maxernst, 19 octobre 2011 - 06:38 .

[tmp7704]

Sylvianus wrote...

That's why Hawk has exactly the same clothes as malehawk in MoA, for example (clothing not suitable for her body.

If i remember right what Mr.Epler said, that's because they didn't have animations they'd consider suitable for character wearing a dress, and no real ability to make them for the DLC. Note how Tallis also wear pants to the party.

Although really, "not suitable for her body"?

[Sylvianus]

tmp7704 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

That's why Hawk has exactly the same clothes as malehawk in MoA, for example (clothing not suitable for her body.

Although really, "not suitable for her body"?

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/15/screenshot2011101122335.jpg/
Look at the neck. This is an example that this garment was made ​​for malehawk and reproduced on femhawk.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 19 octobre 2011 - 06:58 .

[tmp7704]

Sylvianus wrote...

Look at the neck. This is an example that this garment was made ​​for malehawk and reproduced on femhawk.

So it's pretty sloppy conversion, but then i don't see how that makes the outfit itself "not suitable for female Hawke". The mesh reuse/adaptation is fairly common in DA because it cuts down the amount of work involved. But it doesn't have to mean these outfits are created with only one gender on mind at the design stage.

(consider the 'notorious pirate' outfit as example, the one Leliana shows up in during the base game)

Modifié par tmp7704, 19 octobre 2011 - 07:04 .

[Sylvianus]

tmp7704 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Look at the neck. This is an example that this garment was made ​​for malehawk and reproduced on femhawk.

So it's pretty sloppy conversion, but then i don't see how that makes the outfit itself "not suitable for female Hawke". The mesh reuse/adaptation is fairly common in DA because it cuts down the amount of work involved. But it doesn't have to mean these outfits are created with only one gender on mind at the design stage.

(consider the 'notorious pirate' outfit as example, the one Leliana shows up in during the base game)

Excuse me. Where do you see this assertion ?

You took one sentence out of context to make me say what I have not said. It was anecdotal, that's why I put this sentence in parentheses. ( ) If you follow correctly what I said, They want female protagonists neutral gender, and that's why they have the same clothes, that's it.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 19 octobre 2011 - 07:11 .

[tmp7704]

Sylvianus wrote...

Excuse me. Where do you see this assertion ?

How else am i supposed to interpret a statement the outfit is "not suitable for female Hawke's body" followed with argument that the outfit in question was originally created for male version of the character? When the context of the thread at the moment is alleged differences between males and females?

[Killjoy Cutter]

krissyjf wrote...

Aviena wrote...

Disclaimer: have not read whole nine pages, just want to chip in.
As a female player who almost exlusively plays female protagonists, I don't feel that Bioware has ever sidelined my character because of her gender. Sure, maleShep/Hawke are always on the boxes, but when we get to the important stuff (the story!!11!1) Bioware always balances the losses with gains, for both genders.

But actually, that is part of the problem. DA2 become too gender neutral, in terms of how both Hawke versions acted and reacted. Other than having the voice, body, and clothing of a female, everything else about FemHawke was exactly the same as Male Hawke.

I'm sorry, but males and females are very different in terms of how they each think, act, and relate to the world/situations, and people around them. Just ask my husband. Even after almost 25 years of marriage, he still can't figure out how my mind works.

So even when given a choice of gender in games, you really are just playing the same character. The only difference comes down to outward appearance.

No, individuals are very different in terms of how they think, act, and relate to the world. 


Nevermind that when EA tries to make a character more "feminine", you get DA2's femHawke, who walks with the unmistakeable gait of the North American swayback hookerbird.  

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 19 octobre 2011 - 07:39 .

[Malanek]

I couldn't care less how it is marketed. Absolutely irrelevant. If there was a set female protagonist with no choice I don't think it would stop me playing a game although I do normally play as male. It didn't stop me playing and enjoying Portal or the Sorceress and Amazon in Diablo 2. Those are not really RPGs though and I prefer playing a character I can emphathise with more and that means male. In short it wouldn't stop me playing but it would probably make it less immersive.

[Wozearly]

tmp7704 wrote...

Wozearly wrote...

Female protagonists can sometimes feel 'wrong' if you parachute them into the same situation without making any adaptations. That's not to say they can't have the same motivations, but if you're not careful about how you consider the options available to players then you can end up with the female protagonist taking on the persona of a man who just happens to be in a woman's body...

If a female character being direct and decisive about her actions feels "wrong" then i'd say the only "wrong" part in that is the mentality of the person who thinks that's somehow "wrong" and requires "adaptations".

I wasn't arguing in favour of female characters never being able to be direct and decisive. There's nothing inherantly wrong in a female protagonist acting in that manner, and many highly successful female protagonist characters do exactly that.

But, as with all well-rounded characters, the critical question is why they decide to act in the way that they do and the thought process that leads them there. Men and women do tend to think, act and respond differently. Ultimately, this is rooted in biology just as much as it is in social expectations. You can brush that under the carpet and ignore it, and it doesn't automatically make for a bad character or a bad game, or you can try to allow those types of differences to come through (hopefully, avoiding both cliched stereotypes and anti-stereotypes in the process).

I mentioned the Mother from Awakening in a previous post. Clearly this is a subjective opinion, but I felt that her actions and thinking based on subtlety, misdirection and emotional influences on her followers made more sense with her being a female antagonist than a male one. Loghain's more direct "brute force" approach suited him well as a male character playing to male strengths and acting in a very masculine way to deal with opposition.

Yes, those approaches are also consistent with the Mother being physically limited in terms of her ability to move around and deal with things personally and with Loghain being a fearsome warrior and general. But I wouldn't ignore the gender influences. As a general rule, women will tend to perform better and get more satisfaction from walks of life with a high social interaction and a collaborative environment. Men will tend to perform better in walks of life requiring a high degree of physical endurance and a competitive environment. Biologically, this is playing to the strengths of each respective gender.

Individuals won't necessarily fit that norm, which is why its an intuitive guideline and not a rule that can't be broken. But if you have an RPG full of women builders making lewd wolf-whistles at a small group of men talking animatedly about fashion and their relationships, then you'd start wondering if it was a parody. I just don't think it would feel right, even if the game world had a cast-iron explanation for it socially.

...and yes, the stereotypes in the above paragraph are intentional.

[Sylvianus]

Nevermind. Next time They should check the details about the outfit. They too tend to impose the same to the female protagonist without adjusting her animations or clothing. ( Shepard with a skirt, who sits like  maleshep, and so we see... some things we shouldn't.... or some scenes with Liara in the shadowbroker ), If they want a female protagonist neutral gender with the same things as a male protagonist, they must be careful to the details.

Everything has to stick with the body, with intelligent proportions ( for example clothes ), and animations that must be also adjusted, if necessary.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 19 octobre 2011 - 08:16 .

[PrinceLionheart]

krissyjf wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Depends, would there still be an option to play as a Male Character (like there is an option for females in reverse.)

So I take it you wouldn't feel comfortable playing as a female character if there wasn't an option to play as a male?

I understand that if you are playing a RPG that you would want the option to choose gender, otherwise it's not much of a RPG. But what if the genre of the game is an action/shooter/adventure game? Would you as a male gamer, play it if the protagonist was female?

Considering I already own games like Resident Evil, Bayonetta, FFXIII, and Kameo, I'd say I really don't have an issue.

krissyjf wrote...

What if the game is a RPG, with choice of gender, but the company chose to promote the game by using only the female protagonist in all their trailers, box design, ect.... would that make a difference to you? Would you not want to purchase the game because of that?

Like I said, it depends over whether I still had a choice in changing the appearance/sex of my character. I'm not going to sugar coat, I ver rarely play as females in RPGs like this. Has nothing to do with being "uncomfortable" as it does a simple preference. Same for females who always play as female characters.

Not to say that Bioware (and other companies) shouldn't try to market games like these to females like they do for males. Personally, I think the way they're doing it for ME3 is the best way to go about it.

Modifié par PrinceLionheart, 19 octobre 2011 - 08:48 .

[DA_GamerGal]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Add all that together, and I doubted ME was a game I wanted to play after all. It seemed to have nothing going for it that I really liked in my gameplay. Point 3 felt like the nail in the coffin rather than the actual reason I never went out of my way to buy it myself. I was genuinely surprised when I heard you could play a fem!Shep, but like I said, even now that I know there's character creation in ME, I still haven't gotten around to playing it.

So it takes more than being able to play a girl to get me to play a game. Unless it's a franchise I'm familiar with though, or have heard good things about, having the gender choice just means I'm more likely to give it a shot.

Finally, if Bioware made a male protag only game in a setting I had a strong interest in, then sure I'd pick it up. My protest has always been more 'If both genders are present, then give both some decent media exposure. Cater to your whole audience!' rather than 'If only one gender is present I'll never play your stupid game.'

OTOH, I'm sure there are players out there who are more exclusive in their gender-gaming habits than I.

Edit: So, yeah, sorry. I don't like big guns. I prefer big swords. I'll let you decide what that says about my femininity.

I bought ME2 after I played DA:O and the only reason I decided to try ME2 was because it was a BioWare game. It took me a bit to get adjusted to the conversation wheel, especially after playing DA:O, but ME2 has ended up being one a my favorite games to play. So much so, that I am seriously thinking about buying an Xbox 360 so I can play the first ME.  You should give it a shot.

However, I haven't finished one play-through as MaleShep. I don't know why it is, but if I start off playing as the female protagonist, I have a hard time going back and playing as the male one. Same thing happened in DA:O and DA2. Maybe I should always start off playing as the male protagonist from now on. 

[DA_GamerGal]

Sylvianus wrote...

But that's want many female players here, especially on the mass effect board. They want femshep or femshawk gender neutral. They are the first ones to ask for that, not bioware which follows, nor the male players. That's why Hawk has exactly the same clothes as malehawk in MoA, for example (clothing not suitable for her body. Or femshep who sit as a man with a skirt ) But I agree with you.

Really? I wonder why that is. If you want  FemHawke or FemShep gender neutral, why even bother playing as the female version?

[Sylvius the Mad]

The marketing has no material effect on the content of the game. Making buying decisions based on the marketing is lunacy.

[Sylvianus]

krissyjf wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

But that's want many female players here, especially on the mass effect board. They want femshep or femshawk gender neutral. They are the first ones to ask for that, not bioware which follows, nor the male players. That's why Hawk has exactly the same clothes as malehawk in MoA, for example (clothing not suitable for her body. Or femshep who sit as a man with a skirt ) But I agree with you.

Really? I wonder why that is. If you want  FemHawke or FemShep gender neutral, why even bother playing as the female version?

But I agree with you. That's no to me you need to ask the question, but the other female players. Because, me, I love different taste, different perspectives, that male protagonist can be  different from a female protagonist, ( replayability ) and that's why, I am not too fond on the principle about gender neutral even if it doesn't bother me. I can't answer to you, because I don't understand at all myself this logic, but given their number, Bioware can't ignore their will. There are other people who complain as well that femshep for example is not enought like a female, and so, they want to respond to these people too like said someone a long time ago, but, it's difficult, to see really what people really want. It's not easy at all for Bioware on the matter.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 19 octobre 2011 - 09:53 .

[maxernst]

krissyjf wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Add all that together, and I doubted ME was a game I wanted to play after all. It seemed to have nothing going for it that I really liked in my gameplay. Point 3 felt like the nail in the coffin rather than the actual reason I never went out of my way to buy it myself. I was genuinely surprised when I heard you could play a fem!Shep, but like I said, even now that I know there's character creation in ME, I still haven't gotten around to playing it.

So it takes more than being able to play a girl to get me to play a game. Unless it's a franchise I'm familiar with though, or have heard good things about, having the gender choice just means I'm more likely to give it a shot.

Finally, if Bioware made a male protag only game in a setting I had a strong interest in, then sure I'd pick it up. My protest has always been more 'If both genders are present, then give both some decent media exposure. Cater to your whole audience!' rather than 'If only one gender is present I'll never play your stupid game.'

OTOH, I'm sure there are players out there who are more exclusive in their gender-gaming habits than I.

Edit: So, yeah, sorry. I don't like big guns. I prefer big swords. I'll let you decide what that says about my femininity.

I bought ME2 after I played DA:O and the only reason I decided to try ME2 was because it was a BioWare game. It took me a bit to get adjusted to the conversation wheel, especially after playing DA:O, but ME2 has ended up being one a my favorite games to play. So much so, that I am seriously thinking about buying an Xbox 360 so I can play the first ME.  You should give it a shot.

However, I haven't finished one play-through as MaleShep. I don't know why it is, but if I start off playing as the female protagonist, I have a hard time going back and playing as the male one. Same thing happened in DA:O and DA2. Maybe I should always start off playing as the male protagonist from now on. 

Doesn't this contradict your assertion that Bioware's games are written for a male protagonist?  Shouldn't you should be finding your Fem Sheps and female wardens jarring because they think/talk/act like men, and only their appearance is different?

[Merci357]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The marketing has no material effect on the content of the game. Making buying decisions based on the marketing is lunacy.

Sure, but marketing makes you aware that there is a game that might interest you. Only after you are aware of a certain game, you can start to collect more information.

Even tough I played the old BioWare games up to KotOR, due to very limited spare time (and the fact they published JE/ME as xbox exclusive games at first) I lost track of BW and never followed the ME development. If I had looked up some info, I'd realised you can create your custom PC, including a female version. But the marketing made me believe it's an action RPG with generic male space marine #234. And as such I wasn't interested in the game. About two years later DA:O sparked my interest, and only then I was curious about the other games BioWare has made in the past years, and got Jade Empire and Mass Effect.

So, in a sense you are right, making decisions based on marketing is lunacy. But then again, if the marketing fails to spark any interest for a game you happen to enjoy immensely later on, what does that tell us about the quality of said marketing?

[DA_GamerGal]

maxernst wrote...


In any event, you're not playing the same character.  You have a variety of dialogue choices.  If you perceive particular choices as things only a man would say, then you're free to make other choices.  If Shepard is so obviously written be a male character, why is it that many people (most?) find fem Shep's voice acting preferable? 

 Yes, there is a variety of dialogue choices, but they are exactly the same for both genders, and the outcomes for those dialogue choices are exactly the same for both genders. The dialogue choices in DA2 are pretty much gender neutral.

As far as the VO for FemShep, I have no idea why so many people find it preferable, as I am not one of those people.

[tmp7704]

Wozearly wrote...

I wasn't arguing in favour of female characters never being able to be direct and decisive. There's nothing inherantly wrong in a female protagonist acting in that manner, and many highly successful female protagonist characters do exactly that.

Except when they do act in this manner it seems you choose to view it as either "they are acting like a man in female body" or they're "anti-stereotype mould of the 'Woman who is every bit as good as a man at being a man and isn't afraid to put them to shame about it. Constantly.'"

In other words, if there's indeed nothing inherently wrong with woman acting that way, why can't you just accept her character simply is that way, instead of viewing her as either "a man" or "a woman trying to prove something to men, constantly"? It's just both these are quite negative viewpoints/interpretations of something there's supposed to be nothing wrong with...

Men and women do tend to think, act and respond differently.

Yes, as individuals. The problems start when people try to generalize about what's ultimately ~3.5 billion large population at the moment, each. 

You can brush that under the carpet and ignore it, and it doesn't automatically make for a bad character or a bad game

No ****. Not conforming to a stereotype certainly doesn't in itself make for a bad character nor a bad game, much less automatically.

or you can try to allow those types of differences to come through (hopefully, avoiding both cliched stereotypes and anti-stereotypes in the process).

Uhmm... "those types of differences" are cliched stereotypes. You can't avoid something when you actively try to include it in your design.

The difference is in the focus and it's subtle, but it's along the lines of say, designing a female character who likes colour pink because she just does (personal tastes being like rearholes etc) and designing a female character who likes colour pink "because women like pink".

But if you have an RPG full of women builders making lewd wolf-whistles at a small group of men talking animatedly about fashion and their relationships, then you'd start wondering if it was a parody.

No, i'd presume the game is based in society which just happens to operate with conditioning opposite to our own. Although yes, that could be considered as intentional parody and/or social commentary.

But, at no point it'd occur to me to consider such a setting "totally impossible because women and men just aren't built to think and behave in such manner".

[Rorschachinstein]

Putting women on boxart automatically makes it look like it's going for sex appeal. Don't know why that is, but most games that do go for sex appeal put pretty women with little clothing on the cover. I know FemHawke and FemShep are not those generic ****s you see in games like Bayonetta, or it must be that old feeling men used get when they were boys playing on the nintendo screaming " I don't want to be the girl!". Either way, it's pretty damn sad that they don't put characters as good looking as FemHawke on covers.

[tmp7704]

krissyjf wrote...

If you want  FemHawke or FemShep gender neutral, why even bother playing as the female version?

Same reasons one would bother playing as the male version?

[Yuqi]

Seriously, after seeing the whole femhawke in a dress rant, I'm not surprised they use Mhawke in their advertising. I wonder how many females play predominately for the LI component, I don't, but it would still be interesting to find out.

[DA_GamerGal]

maxernst wrote...

Doesn't this contradict your assertion that Bioware's games are written for a male protagonist?  Shouldn't you should be finding your Fem Sheps and female wardens jarring because they think/talk/act like men, and only their appearance is different?

Actually, a lot of the time I do... so it's a good thing they have different appearances... to remind me that I am actually playing as a female. Of course, it also does help to have a good imagination and the ability to overlook minor annoyances.

[Aggie Punbot]

How about they make a dress for maleHawke? That way everyone could be happy!