360 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Firky wrote...

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

I agree, and my experience tells me that, overall, and yes I am making a general statement here, women prefer social solutions of roleplaying situations to combat-oriented. It's always hard to please a female gamer in male-driven module.
 

*spits out coffee*

I'm not disputing it, because it may be true, as a generalisation, but the fact that DAII kicked my lady ass totally endeared me to the game. (Origins was cool, but ultimately too easy, combat wise, for my taste.)

Hm I am a guy and I like action and blowing up things as much as any other guy, but I also prefer a non violent solution in RPGs. That's basically why I think the guys from Fallout are a bit ahead of Bioware atm. Even if Bioware is doing companions and companion related quests and dialogues much better. Anyway, I always go for an option to 'killing stuff' if there is one. Maybe because I am an MMO victim (played MMORPGs, hated it) that makes me have an allergic reaction to any quests that require to kill a bunch of mobs.

[TheGunslinger]

I'm a guy and I would actually like to see a female protagonist being marketed. I don't mind playing as a male or female in video games, but I rarely see females being marketed. :/

[Killjoy Cutter]

I actually like that Shep is pretty much Shep, and not "guy Shep" or "girl Shep".   The whole "little black dress" thing still bugs me. 

There were a couple of moments in DA2 when I was like "well that was a bit stereotypical in its attempt to differentiate."  Of course, DA has always had this love affair with taking the female armor layouts towards "chainmail bikini" territory, at least the light/leather armors. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 20 octobre 2011 - 01:36 .

[DA_GamerGal]

maxernst wrote...

[But they already do that, at least in DA:O and DA2--I haven't seen it in ME, but I've never played Femshep.  For example, if you play a HN, there are subtle differences in the dialogues with the parents, and you have the opportunity to flirt with Duncan (which is very funny!),.  You get the dialogue where Sten is confused by the fact that you're a women, yet you fight.  The CE origin plays quite differently if you're female, just as a few examples.  And, um, you know, being able to marry Anora or Alistair is kind of a significant difference.

The differences are less in DA2, but there are still some, particularly in the romantic lines, and the Gamlen dialogues about your romantic partners.

Yes... there are quite a few differences in DA:O (I loved those differences- which is one of the reasons I liked DA:O better than DA2) but I wasn't referring to that particular game.  As far as the differences found in DA2... they ones found there have more to do with how NPCs reacts to the PC. I was hoping to see more of a difference in how the PC reacts to a given event/situation or NPC.

[DA_GamerGal]

Fugiz wrote...

As long as she is not voiced, no problem.

I take it you didn't like the voiced protagonists in DA2?

Did you like the dialogue wheel?

[DA_GamerGal]

Sylvianus wrote...

And please, you could give a practical garment to femhawk, feminine and pretty in the same time, there was no need to give exactly the same as maleHawk. I thought they were very lazy. The garment is not even built for her.

It would have been better if they had just allowed femHawke to contiue wearing what ever outfit the player had already clothed her in (My mage Hawke looked like she was playing dress-up in her brother Carver's clothes)
Or just let her wear the clothing that she normally wore while in her estate. Same thing for male Hawke... then the devs could have used the saved resources on something else.
 

[maxernst]

krissyjf wrote...

maxernst wrote...

[But they already do that, at least in DA:O and DA2--I haven't seen it in ME, but I've never played Femshep.  For example, if you play a HN, there are subtle differences in the dialogues with the parents, and you have the opportunity to flirt with Duncan (which is very funny!),.  You get the dialogue where Sten is confused by the fact that you're a women, yet you fight.  The CE origin plays quite differently if you're female, just as a few examples.  And, um, you know, being able to marry Anora or Alistair is kind of a significant difference.

The differences are less in DA2, but there are still some, particularly in the romantic lines, and the Gamlen dialogues about your romantic partners.

Yes... there are quite a few differences in DA:O (I loved those differences- which is one of the reasons I liked DA:O better than DA2) but I wasn't referring to that particular game.  As far as the differences found in DA2... they ones found there have more to do with how NPCs reacts to the PC. I was hoping to see more of a difference in how the PC reacts to a given event/situation or NPC.

That's where we fundamentally disagree.  I want to have control of how my character reacts to the situation, not be forced into gender stereotypes by the game.  You don't improve the roleplaying experience by placing additional boundaries on the PC's behavior.

There are already dialogue options that one might view as more feminine or masculine choices.  For example, I really doubt that many Ferelden men would be all that interested in hearing Leliana go on about women's shoes, clothes and hair.  To be honest, my female warden wasn't either, but in general, I think it's fair to expect a woman to have more interest in women's fashion than a man.  But I don't want the game to assume that interest exists if I am female or prevent me from showing that interest if I happen to be male.  The male bard I played in an NWN2 persistent world would have been quite happy to blather on about fashion. 

[tmp7704]

maxernst wrote...

There are already dialogue options that one might view as more feminine or masculine choices.  For example, I really doubt that many Ferelden men would be all that interested in hearing Leliana go on about women's shoes, clothes and hair.  To be honest, my female warden wasn't either, but in general, I think it's fair to expect a woman to have more interest in women's fashion than a man.  But I don't want the game to assume that interest exists if I am female or prevent me from showing that interest if I happen to be male.

Unfortunately, that particular conversation does indeed only happen for the female character, if i recall right. On the other hand, it can be viewed simply as aspect of Leliana's personality -- it's she who is more comfortable discussing such subjects with another female (not in the least because she seems to have more interest in females than males in general, perhaps)

[Vicious]

I avoid female protagonists because I simply can't identify them.

[maxernst]

tmp7704 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

There are already dialogue options that one might view as more feminine or masculine choices.  For example, I really doubt that many Ferelden men would be all that interested in hearing Leliana go on about women's shoes, clothes and hair.  To be honest, my female warden wasn't either, but in general, I think it's fair to expect a woman to have more interest in women's fashion than a man.  But I don't want the game to assume that interest exists if I am female or prevent me from showing that interest if I happen to be male.

Unfortunately, that particular conversation does indeed only happen for the female character, if i recall right. On the other hand, it can be viewed simply as aspect of Leliana's personality -- it's she who is more comfortable discussing such subjects with another female (not in the least because she seems to have more interest in females than males in general, perhaps)

Really? I must have had the Equal Love mod on and seen it, then. But then, it's still Leliana's reaction to being female.  It would annoy me if Leliana started to talk about clothing and the option to enthusiastically join the discussion were not there because my character happens to be male.

[Joy Divison]

I'm curious how exactly the gameplay or plot would be different for a female protagonist as opposed to a male one?

"Shouldn't you should be finding your Fem Sheps and female wardens jarring because they think/talk/act like men..."

What exactly does this mean? How do men think/talk/act?

Should Bioware include flags to trigger a female protagonist to ask for directions to the cave of evil? Or for males to burp loudly after drinking an ale? I guess I'm not seeing the point...

[Sylvius the Mad]

simfamSP wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Tabletop or tabletop-like experience is different from PC-gaming as you can't reload, and death usually is a big thing. I had girls cry because their character ended up dead, in a good way ("bwaaah twas so saaaad, she was like.. and she believed and wanted and had dreams but.. aaah twas so saaaaad"), not in the i-would-never-ever-roleplay, of course (though, uh, that happened too). Males? They just tend to roll next character to kick my sorry DM ass.
Males are easy.

By your definition, I roleplay like a girl.

You... you cry?

Okay, good point.

But I think it's important for a roleplayer to know the hopes and dreams of his character.

[Killjoy Cutter]

krissyjf wrote...

maxernst wrote...

[But they already do that, at least in DA:O and DA2--I haven't seen it in ME, but I've never played Femshep.  For example, if you play a HN, there are subtle differences in the dialogues with the parents, and you have the opportunity to flirt with Duncan (which is very funny!),.  You get the dialogue where Sten is confused by the fact that you're a women, yet you fight.  The CE origin plays quite differently if you're female, just as a few examples.  And, um, you know, being able to marry Anora or Alistair is kind of a significant difference.

The differences are less in DA2, but there are still some, particularly in the romantic lines, and the Gamlen dialogues about your romantic partners.

Yes... there are quite a few differences in DA:O (I loved those differences- which is one of the reasons I liked DA:O better than DA2) but I wasn't referring to that particular game.  As far as the differences found in DA2... they ones found there have more to do with how NPCs reacts to the PC. I was hoping to see more of a difference in how the PC reacts to a given event/situation or NPC.

Whereas I don't.  Not only do I not want my character's personality defined for me in yet another way, I also suspect that we'd get long discussions about hair and shoes, the same way we got femHawke's ****strut in DA2....  EA thinks like Holywood.

[LedinToke]

I don't care if the protagonist of a game is male or female. All that matters to me is if the game is interesting.

FF13 is a great example because I hate it for its bad game play, and not because of lightning

[BBK4114]

Joy Divison wrote...

I'm curious how exactly the gameplay or plot would be different for a female protagonist as opposed to a male one?

"Shouldn't you should be finding your Fem Sheps and female wardens jarring because they think/talk/act like men..."

What exactly does this mean? How do men think/talk/act?

Should Bioware include flags to trigger a female protagonist to ask for directions to the cave of evil? Or for males to burp loudly after drinking an ale? I guess I'm not seeing the point...

LMAO!  Me neither, JoyD.  These people with their assumption that all females fit into their narrow views...  
I much prefer the gender neutrality of ME1 to the f!Hawke sashay.  

[Wulfram]

tmp7704 wrote...

Unfortunately, that particular conversation does indeed only happen for the female character, if i recall right. On the other hand, it can be viewed simply as aspect of Leliana's personality -- it's she who is more comfortable discussing such subjects with another female (not in the least because she seems to have more interest in females than males in general, perhaps)

Shoes are discussed with both genders, if you ask her about Orlais.  Hair is discussed only with girls, mostly as a way of flirting while maintaining deniability.

Modifié par Wulfram, 20 octobre 2011 - 07:53 .

[Kreid]

It all comes down to a well written story and characters and whether the hypothetical female lead is well developed and designed (big point here since we all know women in games *tend* to be over sexualized, glad no Bioware leads are) so yeah I just care for a good game and not about the sex of the lead although I admit that as a male myself I often feel more identified with male characters.

Modifié par Creid-X, 20 octobre 2011 - 07:56 .

[tmp7704]

Wulfram wrote...

Shoes are discussed with both genders, if you ask her about Orlais.  Hair is discussed only with girls, mostly as a way of flirting while maintaining deniability.

Ah, right. Forgot the details and thought the shoes thing happens in the same conversation

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

maxernst wrote...

krissyjf wrote...

[...]there are quite a few differences in DA:O (I loved those differences- which is one of the reasons I liked DA:O better than DA2) but I wasn't referring to that particular game.  As far as the differences found in DA2... they ones found there have more to do with how NPCs reacts to the PC. I was hoping to see more of a difference in how the PC reacts to a given event/situation or NPC.

That's where we fundamentally disagree.  I want to have control of how my character reacts to the situation, not be forced into gender stereotypes by the game.  You don't improve the roleplaying experience by placing additional boundaries on the PC's behavior.

Hmm. So if I understand you correctly, you'd be in favour of (for example) any gender Cousland having the opportunity to try and flirt with Duncan, or Alistair, regardless of how they react to it. I think I agree with you. I think the PC's gender shouldn't have any bearing on what they are allowed to try and do*, or decide to say. But I don't think a female/male should always succeed if the situation they're in or person they're speaking to favours one gender over the other, and that is the problem I'm seeing with DA2.

But I think this is going off topic...

*Edit: With the exception of some basic biological differences. No, m!PC, you can't get pregnant. Not without cutting a deal with a demon or something.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 21 octobre 2011 - 01:58 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Hmm. So if I understand you correctly, you'd be in favour of (for example) any gender Cousland having the opportunity to try and flirt with Duncan, or Alistair, regardless of how they react to it. I think I agree with you.

I've been advancing this position for many months.

The point of roleplaying is to roleplay.  The response of the NPCs is, at most, a secondary concern, and possibly completely irrelevant.

[Taritu]

I would.

In fiction the cliche is that men read about men, women read about men or women. The exceptions are women who might as well be men, and sexpot characters.

[Taura-Tierno]

The game itself matters. The gender of the protagonist doesn't. So yeah, I'd buy a game with a female protagonist, as long as the game looks good. Just as I would a game with a male protagonist.

[Foolsfolly]

Joy Divison wrote...

I'm curious how exactly the gameplay or plot would be different for a female protagonist as opposed to a male one?

"Shouldn't you should be finding your Fem Sheps and female wardens jarring because they think/talk/act like men..."

What exactly does this mean? How do men think/talk/act?

Should Bioware include flags to trigger a female protagonist to ask for directions to the cave of evil? Or for males to burp loudly after drinking an ale? I guess I'm not seeing the point...

Shepard does walk like a man. And sits like a man. Which is hilarious if you have her in the dress you get from Kasumi's mission. She sits with her legs wide up while wearing a miniskirt.

That said.... this is very delicate and can be taken wrong very easily. But men and women are different. Gender identity is important in how we view ourselves. And we behave differently because, like it or not this is fact, men and women are treated differently.

So it follows that playing a male of female character should have differences. They shouldn't all sound the exact same. But the threat here would be in making a character more feminine they actually pander, play into sterotypes, and generally invite loads of probably honest criticism. So the safest route is to play the two genders as complete and total equals where they both say the same things.

I liked how Origins handled gender, personally. It changed how some specific NPCs saw you but you never had dialogue that was insultingly girlie (well there's a comment about shoes with Leliana but the boys can say that too).

I'd like it if gender changed how the world saw you but they remained with the PC being the same.

[Ecf1]

Do I care if the game is marketed with a female Hawke? Not really. If I was on the borderline of buying it or not, portraying just the female protagonist would definitely put me off of getting the game.

If I was deadset on the game and it offered both, then I wouldn't care.

Only offering a female protagonist? 100% not getting the game. 1 in 8 of my DA:O characters was female and I had to force myself to finish it. 1 in 5 of my Hawkes were female and she just did make it to Kirkwall before I stopped playing.

It interferes with the way I play my games. I put myself into my character's shoes, since I'm not a woman, it makes me really uncomfortable when my character is.

Note to self: Self, you should really look into updating that picture of yours. I know you enjoyed your first playthrough but 2 years for one picture is long enough. Also, be sure to run tomorrow.

[TanyaT]

krissyjf wrote...

I have a question for all the male gamers out there:

If Hawke had been created/written and marketed as a female protagonist instead of a male one, would you still have bought and played Dragon Age2?

Would you buy any game of BioWare's (or any other developer) that featured a female protagonist? Or would you pass it by and simply mark the game as a "girl's game" and thus 'unworthy" of playing?

Sadly, I feel that is how most male gamers and most male game developers and writers feel. That somehow if the main character is female and not a male, that it will not be marketable- that it won't make the company enough money.

So is this how male gamers feel? That a female character-driven story in a game is not playable in the same way that a male character is? That the game would somehow be less, if the PC was a female?

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't most gamers- including male gamers- play a game for the storyline, the challenge of combat, and because the characters are rich and well-developed? So if the game is all of these things, and the protagonist just happens to be a female, why wouldn't you play it? Female gamers have had to do this for years. Most of the games I own have only male protagonists.

Maybe this isn't a fair question, since BioWare's RPGs all give us a chance to create either a male or female PC, so it could be argued that it is a moot point.

But I would say, simply because BioWare gives we female gamers an option to play as a female PC, doesn't mean that the game was developed and written with the female PC in mind. For once, I would like to see BioWare develop/center one of their Dragon Age games around a female character- around a female protagonist- and let the male PC be the option. For once, I would like to see an entire marketing campaign centered around the female protagonist, instead of the male one.

Game developers seem to be forgetting that female gamers make up as much as 40% of the overall gamers, and we all don't play Farmville and Simms.

Thoughts? Comments? Answers?

Edit: Removed incorrect word and inserted the correct one. Should probably proof-read before submitting. Thank you so much Cutlass Jack for so graciously pointing out the error.

Spouse isn't registered on here, reckons he has a life ;-)
he usually plays as a female, not sure why. he always chooses a queen/ première in Civ, and females in RPGs from Baldurs Gate to Skyrim


All the RPGs where we can choose we* play as female first, then in later run throughs have a go as a bloke, and finally go female again.
Started DA2 as a male Hawke though (probably because I thought he was cute) as they were presets. Had we gone through a customisable start we'd have been female.
Glad we didn't, I found Anders and Garret a powerful combination



* we often play together, I'm his third hand on the keyboard, we discuss tactics, I remember where we are supposed to be going (he has no sense of direction), and now I tell him who to romance, etc