360 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

BBK4114 wrote...

Or how about how much care went into making Leliana for DA2 -- she looked about 15 years younger.  While both Zevran and Alistair fell into a vat of ugly.  Alistair looks bee stung and old and fat. Zevran looked like the homliest elves in the game!!! 

I think that's at least partly just because with the new face morph system it is relatively easy to make a decent looking Leliana, but damn near impossible to do a decent Alistair - you really can't do his great DA:O nose justice, for one thing.  While Zevran has added difficulties because the elves have changed a lot - though they could at least have given him some eyebrows.

[DA_GamerGal]

From all the male responses so far, It seems to me that most male gamers would not have a problem with buying or playing a game that either 1) featured just a female protagonist or 2) featured the female iconic version over the male iconic version.

Well, that certainly was a surprise. A very pleasant one, that gives me hope for the future of game development, but still a surprise just the same.

But then again, if I went on a forum board for let's say "Call of Duty", somehow I don't think I would get the same responses from the male gamers there. I think BioWare gamers are unique... they tend to be more open- minded and secure in who- or what- they are.

Just to clear something up... I  think BioWare is doing a wonderful job in trying to reach out to all types of gamers. I just think they have a slight blind spot when it comes to promoting their female protagonists. I would like them to be a bit more radical and not fall into the same mode of thinking that the majority of the other game developers fall into... that games featuring a female protagonist is too hard to market and will not make them enough money.

What Steve Jobs was to the future of computers, I believe BioWare can be to the future of games.

[BBK4114]

@ Wulfram- I would agree, except the devs aren't limited by the cc the same way that we are. They managed to make Fenris and Merrill look pretty good, and some of the face morph mods look waaaaaay better. Heck they didn't even get Bann Teagan and Nathaniel Howe's eye color right.

Modifié par BBK4114, 17 octobre 2011 - 11:18 .

[BBK4114]

I agree with you krissyjf. Bioware games are miles ahead in this regard. At least so far. Changes are afoot however so I'm going to wait to give them humanitarian awards.

[Wulfram]

krissyjf wrote...

From all the male responses so far, It seems to me that most male gamers would not have a problem with buying or playing a game that either 1) featured just a female protagonist or 2) featured the female iconic version over the male iconic version.

People are hardly likely to post "Yes, I am a misogynistic bastard and buying a box with a girl on it will threaten my manhood".  But Bioware's decisions will be dictated more by what people actually buy than what they claim on a message board.

[naledgeborn]

The truth: I don't know. If I came out and said "yeah sure it doesn't matter!" I'd be lying. But I'm a Lara Croft/Samaus Aran fan so I'm leaning towards yes. I'd probably treat pre-release information with more scrutiny than usual though.

[naledgeborn]

Wulfram wrote...

People are hardly likely to post "Yes, I am a misogynistic bastard and buying a box with a girl on it will threaten my manhood".  But Bioware's decisions will be dictated more by what people actually buy than what they claim on a message board.

Good point.

[DrFumb1ezX]

BBK4114 wrote...

I agree with you krissyjf. Bioware games are miles ahead in this regard. At least so far. Changes are afoot however so I'm going to wait to give them humanitarian awards.

Humanitarian awards? What? Why would you give-
Oh. You mean not cannibals.You mean as in "for greater good of human-kind." Okay, that makes more sense.
Sorry, it just seems to me that humanitarian should mean "eats humans", you know, the same way vegetarian eats only veggies.

[andraip]

Not really getting the point.
It never felt to me that Bioware games were marketed for males with a female PC just as an option, if Bioware had shown Lady Hawke in the Destiny trailer it would not have mattered for me, you can choose between both genders and both are well done.

And looking at Tomb Raider it seems that using a female for marketing seems to work too.

[ObserverStatus]

I don't see why not, my top two favorite games of all time had female leads (Metroid Prime 2 and Starcraft: Broodwar)

[C9316]

I don't have a problem with them as long as they are believable characters. I can't have respect for an over sexualized female character prancing around in bikini armor...

[ObserverStatus]

What? Samus and Kerrigan are TOTALLY believable.

[DA_GamerGal]

FedericoV wrote...

We see it mostly in the same way then. I only believe that RPGs are peculiar in that sense (especially Bioware's ones) because of the dialogues and the romances. Just one question out of pure curiosity: have you played TW1 and/or TW2? As a female player, have you enjoyed playing as Geralt?

Btw, I believe that the attention to female gamer is one of the things that makes Bioware's game still special and unique. They are on the right track on the issue. I was happy that the special edition of ME3 featured a fem-Sheppard. They are taking a step-by-step strategy and it's right because going too extreme in one step would push the male player base in the corner and it would be bad for female players too (just look at the reaction to Anders gay romance...).

In time, I'm mostly sure that we will see a Bioware game marketed with a woman as the main charachter and it will be a fine moment.  

No, sadly my computer is over 10 years old and cannot handle PC games like that. I am planning on purchasing a new computer in the near future and TW1 and TW2 are on the top of my list to buy and play. I've heard good things about the games, so I am really looking forward to playing them.

And you are right, BioWare is on the right track when it comes to the future role of females in games. I have faith in BioWare... I know they will continue to do great things in the gaming industry.

Modifié par krissyjf, 17 octobre 2011 - 11:34 .

[saMoorai]

I REALLY don't care.

Sometimes I like my characters Female like in Fallout 2, 3, Oblivion, Kotor, Fable 2 Etc...

Other times I like my characters male like in Mass effect or Dragon age 2

I really don't care what a protagonist has in its pants. So long as its a good protagonist, I'm happy.

[DA_GamerGal]

andraip wrote...

Not really getting the point.
It never felt to me that Bioware games were marketed for males with a female PC just as an option, if Bioware had shown Lady Hawke in the Destiny trailer it would not have mattered for me, you can choose between both genders and both are well done.

And looking at Tomb Raider it seems that using a female for marketing seems to work too.

But that is my point- BioWare didn't show the female Hawke in the trailer... because the female version is not the version. The male one is.

It is the attitude of the gaming community that I am really talking about- or at least the perceived one- that the male protagonist version should be promoted over the female protagonist version because 1) Male protagonists are better 2) Male protagonists are what sells and they make more money 3) Male gamers will only play as males or prefer to play as male protagonists 4) The majority of gamers are males so why waste marketing on the female versions of the protagonists.

I wanted to know if male gamers actually felt this way, so I decided to ask. It seems to me that most male gamers do not feel that way.

And as far as Lara Croft/Tomb Raider.... her look/body was designed with male gamers in mind. I think her new look is much better now.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

krissyjf wrote...
Hmm.. I am curious why you think that.

Because of your questions on the first page, of course. Or did you already have an answer in your mind? If you did, then what's the point in asking?
Those kind of questions on an RPG board toast my RPG gamer intelligence a bit. If you feel that developers treatment for female protagonists is unacceptable, I could actually doubt your taste in games.
Let's just roll a bit with RPGs and look up how female gamer friendly they are. Because the whole premise of "oh, Bioware opened a new world for female gamers" is, I dare to say, overhyped:
Goldbox games (a s*** load of them): I think every one had a party generation option with both sexes avaible. http://upload.wikime...d/Ad&d_tosf.png
Wizardry: You create your own party. One of the main game characters who travel from game to game, Vi Domina, is a female valkyrie.
Elder Scrolls: You create any character you like.
Might and Magic: You create your own party, or there is a pregenerated party with males and females. In later games, queen Catherine is an active character, while straight white male Roland is hold prisoner. In HoMM, Catherine is a main leading figure in large part of company.
Fallout: You create your character, there are both male and female on a famous poster: http://ui03.gamespot.../fallout1_2.jpg
Arcanum: Create your character, females got to wear kewl dresses.
Jagged Alliance: Well I don't think female gamers would like that, and it's not a what you call for a certain an RPG, but antagonist in JA2 is female, and you can load yourself with female mercenaries too.
Bloodlines: Create your character, females have like double the options in Seduction feat than males.
Temple of Elemental Evil: You create your party.
Bioware games: You can play any gender, female-only romances, ecetera, from BG1 to every other game they made, I think.
KoTOR2: Canon protagonist is female. Antagonist is female too, and one of the coolest antagonists and sith in SW world there are.

I can truly name only like, three RPG's where you are stuck with male protagonist, and which are actually worth playing: Planescape, Ultima and Deus Ex. Though I don't remember was a Stranger/Avatar male in the oldest of them..
Allright, Witcher makes it four.
How can a female gamer feel mistreated with all those I dunnoh. You were the only ones who got to fly on a dragon! http://drakan.ru/picwithar_43.jpg
You got a cool pig uncle http://www.gameranx....od-and-evil.jpg
And I was really jealous that girl got to do a deathmatch with fairies http://small-games.i...en_Portal_1.jpg

And blah blah blah. My point is - RPGs always were about choice and players creativity, so giving any player gender a priority in them is not a way it's meant to be (though I would still play a game with pregen female if she's written well, and I still believe we should get more active girls in games).

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 18 octobre 2011 - 12:15 .

[DA_GamerGal]

BBK4114 wrote...

I agree.  

And god forbid you should say something when a dev. is listening. Man, one went off on a woman in the MotA thread for saying it was wrong to design something for an NPC but  fem Hawke had to wear male Hawke's cast offs, which fit her as if that was indeed what they were.  He said they had run out of resources...
If the clothing had been designed for a female and the male character had to "make do" would they like it? (Rhetorical guys -I imagine you'll say it doesn't matter because you know there's no way in hell it'd ever happen!)

Or how about how much care went into making Leliana for DA2 -- she looked about 15 years younger.  While both Zevran and Alistair fell into a vat of ugly.  Alistair looks bee stung and old and fat. Zevran looked like the homliest elves in the game!!!  

I guess guys don't see things like this as ignoring the female gamer.   

 Like a lot of the other female gamers, I was extremely annoyed when my female mage Hawke was forced to wear that outfit, and I felt like the female version of Hawke was getting the short end of the stick. That she didn't matter as much as male Hawke. But I do understand that they were on a tight budget and that the resources should be spent on things such as quests and such... but it still irked me, nevertheless.

So I started to think about female protagonists, the lack of them in games and how they are treated (by BioWare and other devs)...which led me to post this particular subject.

[Spartansfan8888]

I think they could've done more for female Hawkes. I would agree with you that it felt like the champion armor was designed for the male default and then just grafted onto the female default in a way. With the main character being such a defined person: human, Hawke surname, etc. it would make sense to take that extra time and design champion gear and other armor for a female form.

[dheer]

Doesn't really bother me at all. My warden was a Dalish elf male and "my" Hawke was a female. No one lives forever (and it's sequel) are a few of my favorite games of all time and they feature a female protagonist.

I haven't seen any writing in the Dragon Age series that discriminates against women. Aveline is a great example of an empowered female to me. She's not there to fawn over your pc and be your love interest. She is very much her own person.

[DarkDragon777]

Um, the majority of people I see complaining about the gender of the protagonist are females who don't want to play as a male. Just saying.

[andraip]

krissyjf wrote...

But that is my point- BioWare didn't show the female Hawke in the trailer... because the female version is not the version. The male one is.

It is the attitude of the gaming community that I am really talking about- or at least the perceived one- that the male protagonist version should be promoted over the female protagonist version because 1) Male protagonists are better 2) Male protagonists are what sells and they make more money 3) Male gamers will only play as males or prefer to play as male protagonists 4) The majority of gamers are males so why waste marketing on the female versions of the protagonists.

I wanted to know if male gamers actually felt this way, so I decided to ask. It seems to me that most male gamers do not feel that way.

And as far as Lara Croft/Tomb Raider.... her look/body was designed with male gamers in mind. I think her new look is much better now.

Ok then,

1) I don't think that Male protagonists are better, truth be told my list of favourite female protagonist is bigger then the list of male ones. Gender isn't really important, what's important is that the charachter is well done and polished.

2) Dunno, never studied marketing. I would buy a game with a female protagonist if the game is good.

3) For me it depends on the game, but lately I have often played as a female protagonists. I would say that I spend 60% of the time playing a female characters and 40% playing male characters in the last 2 years (accounting only the games that have both options)

4) The majority are males, yes (60% males means majority). But Bioware is begining to market the female versions to, in ME3 there is also some promotional content for FemShep, + FemShep now got a preset look just as Sheploo, in DA2 both male and female Hawke had a preset look. However I see no reason to start marketing only the female versions instead of the male ones now, and making 2 trailers (one for male another foor female) would just cost lots of money for little gain.

As for Tomb Raider, I know Lara was designed for a male audience and I think too that she look way better know, actually the new Tomb Raider is the first one I think I might buy, I will when it comes out.

[DA_GamerGal]

krissyjf wrote...
Hmm.. I am curious why you think that.

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Because of your questions on the first page, of course. Or did you already have an answer in your mind? If you did, then what's the point in asking?

krissyjf replies:
The two main questions I asked had to do with 1) why developers feel that female protagonists are somehow not as marketable as male protagonists so therefore they cannot/do not make the company as much money , and 2) if male gamers would purchase and play a game where the game and the promo featured a female protagonist.

So how does asking those questions that make me prejudice? I didn't realize that being curious about a subject made one prejudice.

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Those kind of questions on an RPG board toast my RPG gamer intelligence a bit. If you feel that developers treatment for female protagonists is unacceptable, I could actually doubt your taste in games.
And blah blah blah. My point is - RPGs always were about choice and players creativity, so giving any player gender a priority in them is not a way it's meant to be (though I would still play a game with pregen female if she's written well, and I still believe we should get more active girls in games).

krissyjf replies:

[i]First of all I wasn't speaking specifically about RPGs but rather of games in general. Secondly, I never said that the developers treatment of female protagonists were unacceptable, I just questioned why they seem to feel that female protagonists should not be given the same treatment as the male versions  when it comes to promoting the games. Why most game developers, including BioWare, seem to develop games that are centered around male protagonists, or are written with the male version in mind.

Modifié par krissyjf, 18 octobre 2011 - 03:02 .

[casadechrisso]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

(lots)

I have to agree here and must say that Bioware doesn't deserve this praise alone, there are enough other games (mainly RPGs) that not only give you a choice, but actually often give you an even better choice. I can count a few very good RPGs that don't feature oversexualized female characters, they are just an equal option.
And as for realism, I must say New Vegas was in my opinion miles ahead of Bioware. Why? Because I think Obsidian treated both the gender equality and the sexuality in a more mature way. None of your female companions wear skin-tight catsuits like Miranda Lawson, none of them are Courier-sexual (or even a romance option). Two companions are homosexual, which is only slightly hinted at and does not play any role at all - actually, Arcade was the most believable gay character I've seen in a game so far.
Bioware on the other hand tends to handle mature topics in a very naive way, and of course the companions/LIs are always either utterly cute or very sexual. With Miranda, Isabella, Merill and Liara I can't really see the leadership of BW compared to other studios, quite the opposite.

The problem with most other games is just like with DA2 the marketing, box design and all that. Taking Fallout New Vegas as an example, I've always tried to convince some of my female gaming friends to play it because I'm absolutely sure they'd love it if they tried, but hell, the game box looks like yet another shooter aimred at hyperactive kids, so the lasses don't touch it. <_<

[Teddie Sage]

It feels odd when I play a female protagonist in a WRPG. I'm used to playing them in JRPGs, but when I play a WRPG, I expect the protagonist to be an extent of my real personality and appearance... So I'm always going to play male protagonists with a heavy and tall appearance, beard and all.

[Arken]

I don't care about my character's gender. Unless it's an RPG. If it's an RPG I should have a choice in gender since I'm supposed to play the role. But in any other game I don't care.

When I play Metriod Prime I don't care that Samus is a chick. She's a cool bounty hunter with a gun for an arm. Why would I care about her gender?

Tomb Raider is a similar story. Currently the Tomb Raider games are trying to make Lara Croft a more believable character by making her less of a "babe" and more of a scrapper. I don't mind if the new Tomb Raider has a plucky protagonist. As long as the game is good.

A female protagonist does not make it a "girls game." The only girl games I can think of star Barbie as the main character or cats. Other than that I don't care.

It goes beyond gender. Did I care that CJ from Grand Theft Auto was black? No. I just enjoy the game for what it is. The protagonist is not me so I don't care who he or she is. Does it bother me that Link from Legend of Zelda is some plucky little blonde Caucasian/Asian (?) boy? No. Even though I am neither of those races it doesn't bother me if my character is.

My character's appearance means very little to my enjoyment of the game. It's literally the last thing I would ever care about. The only time it's bothered me is when every male character in Gears of War looks like they hit every branch on the ugly tree as a baby.