360 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvianus]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

There are many female players who said on the mass effect and dragon age board they wouldn't buy bioware's game without a female protagonist. Some only play female protagonists.

so : " oooooh They are insecure in their feminity ? "

Of course they are. It works both ways. Why do you think guys find girls who are into Sci-Fi attractive? Why do men like girls with guns? Because they are secure in their feminity (or lack of thereof, but usually the former).

At the very least, refusing to do something for no rationalizable reason is always a sign of some form of insecurity. And if you're Freudian, all insecurities are sexual.

You are telling me that someone ( female player ) who prefers only to play as a female protagonist, or ( a male player ) who prefers only to play a male protagonist is insecure ?  ( and there are many here ) 

I especially believe that some identify strongly with their gender, and make generalizations, of this kind does not really help. Some have simply no affinity with the opposite sex when they are playing video games with a PC, in which they project themself . For other several reasons too. There is no problem of insecurity. You invent problems where there is none. While some can only play their gender as a pc is mainly a matter of taste and perspective.

Some prefer the other gender and don't like even playing their own gender as Pc, and they are not insecure too.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 18 octobre 2011 - 09:27 .

[Carfax]

krissyjf wrote...

I have a question for all the male gamers out there:

If Hawke had been created/written and marketed as a female protagonist instead of a male one, would you still have bought and played Dragon Age2?

Honestly, probably not.  But it's not specifically because FemHawke is female..

Like one poster mentioned previously when he brought up Skyrim, female protagonists in these kinds of games typically suffer from "out of place" syndrome..

That is, they don't fit the role they are put in to, and look out of place and out of character.  Skyrim is a great example, because we've all seen the ads with the hulking dragon born Nord. 

Looking at that character, he fits his role perfectly.....like a regular Conan in fact.  If Bethesda had used a female character instead however, it would not have had the same impact or appeal because it's difficult for most people (women included), to imagine a woman in the role of a hardened warrior like the Dragon born. 

It goes back to our biological nature and Social conditioning, and the historical fact that men have been universally relied upon by all Civilizations and Societies for warfare and defense, where as women have not...

You see the same effect in movies.  Blockbuster action movies almost always have a male lead, and the few that have a female lead instead, don't sell nearly as many tickets.

I mean, just look at Fem Hawke.  She is young (early 20s), beautiful, with the graceful slender body of a super model.  How could a woman like that fit the role of Hawke, the Champion of Kirkwall?  Fem Hawke to me looks and sounds more like a pampered princess than anything else.

Male Hawke on the other hand looks to be in late 20s early 30s, and not only looks more capable, but sounds more capable as well.  Ever wondered why there is always a significant disparity between male and female versions of the same character in Bioware games?

It's because aesthetics is a much bigger concern for female characters, than male characters.  It's easy to make a male character fit any role you want him to.  But to make a female character do the same, is far more difficult.

Give her too much muscle and people will say she's too butch or manly.  Make her too beautiful and people will say she looks like a pin up doll.  Heck, even her hair color can be an issue, as seen with FemShep.

The Wonder Woman T.V series was cancelled partly due to feminist outrage over the actresses costume

Would you buy any game of BioWare's (or any other developer) that featured a female protagonist? Or would you pass it by and simply mark the game as a "girl's game" and thus 'unworthy" of playing?

Yes I would, but the female protagonist would have to look and fit her role.  There are plenty of excellent games out there with female protagonists.  Personally, I'm a major fan of the Tomb Raider series and Lara Croft.

Sadly, I feel that is how most male gamers and most male game developers and writers feel.[b] That somehow if the main character is female and not a male, that it will not be marketable- that it won't make the company enough money.

It depends on the type of game.  Heavy action oriented games with a female lead are less likely to do well for aforementioned reasons.  And it's not due to men only either..

Women are just as culpable as men in the sense that they are extremely picky about the aesthetics of female characters in games.

[TheChris92]

Not at all. I'm not too interested on what's on the box, but more of what it contains. How they chose to market their individual games doesn't affect my purchase. In terms of BioWare games, I started out with Knights of the Old Republic as a Male character. It was fun. I played Mass Effect after this game, and I found Mark Meer as Commander Shepard to boring and dull. I heard that Jennifer Hale voiced the female version, and remembered her doing the voice of Bastila & Naomi(Metal Gear). So, I decided to play a Female Commander, and I loved it. My impression is that Hale is better as Shepard, at least to me. It made me interested in playing female characters in future titles like Origins and Dragon Age 2. I even went back to Kotor and tried playing a female character, and you get different experience. I mostly play female characters nowadays in BioWare games, as the story always seems to be more fun that way. My characters aren't based on myself, but more on the relationships and the choices they make. I still play as a Male every now and then in Dragon Age 2 and Kotor. It's sort of varied sometimes.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Not sure i'd be able to get into the roleplaying aspect that well but i'd play through it and probably enjoy it.

I actually liked the combat and gameplay in DA2 and paid less attention to my characters choices/gender and the romance i was more interested in trying to max my character out while playing through nightmare.

I'm the same way on WoW. My character is female, the animations and the armor just look much better on a female vs the male.

Whatever is easier on the eyes i suppose.

Oh "on the box" no, would not care in the slightest how they marketed it.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 19 octobre 2011 - 02:40 .

[Rann]

Absolutely, I would play the game. In fact I usually end up playing both sexes in these games just to see what the difference is. But I've also had no problems playing other games that had only a female protagonist available. The ethical alignment of the character is far more important to me than the character's sex -- for example, I've tried to play evil characters, and simply can't do it.

[Joy Divison]

I haven't read the nine pages of posts, but I'm sure this has come up...

Lara Croft?!?!

[Big I]

I bought and played Final Fantasy 13 and didn't mind that Lightning, the main character, was a woman. That said when given the choice I mostly play male PCs. I've never played female Hawke or Shepard, and only once did I play a female Warden.


Having a female protagonist wouldn't put me off a game, but if given the option between genders I'd only choose female to see the "alternate" sequence of events.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Like one poster mentioned previously when he brought up Skyrim, female protagonists in these kinds of games typically suffer from "out of place" syndrome..

But the prize.
When woman does something only male protagonist should've been able to do, or better, something he could't do, it's impressive for public to see. Anime uses a trick quite a lot, usually without any talent, but when it hits, it hits ( http://www.comicsrep...ff229_thumb.jpg ).

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 19 octobre 2011 - 10:24 .

[MegaBadExample]

Well, don't you play a game for the same reasons? So why are you complaining and wanting something different?

Modifié par MegaBadExample, 19 octobre 2011 - 10:27 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

There are many female players who said on the mass effect and dragon age board they wouldn't buy bioware's game without a female protagonist. Some only play female protagonists.

so : " oooooh They are insecure in their feminity ? "

Of course they are. It works both ways. Why do you think guys find girls who are into Sci-Fi attractive? Why do men like girls with guns? Because they are secure in their feminity (or lack of thereof, but usually the former).

At the very least, refusing to do something for no rationalizable reason is always a sign of some form of insecurity. And if you're Freudian, all insecurities are sexual.

Actually, I'll pitch in on this one, since I have been vocal in the past about thinking Mass Effect had no female protag due to its marketing. I admit this put me off playing the game, but it was a contributing factor only.

1. Sci-fi has never really been my genre for games. In fact, the only sci-fi games I have in my collection are the Space Quest collection. (Well, no, that's not true. I do own both ME games, but I haven't played them yet.). I only considered ME as something to consider because it's Bioware, and I tend to enjoy Bioware games. I haven't played KotoR either, even though I grew up with Star Wars, just because it's sci-fi. And yes, I've heard they're good. No need to tell me again.

2. Shooters and flight simulators (especially anti grav and first person) give me motion sickness. Portal and Bioshock took me longer than average to finish because I had to lie down every hour or so for my stomach to settle. I've heard this stuff is pretty light in ME, but still present.

3. At the time ME2 was coming out I thought there was no gender selection in character creation, which disappointed me. I am more likely to get a game that has character creation. I practically expect RPGs to provide this feature (and was annoyed when Planescape: Torment didn't).

4. My experience with the Dying Days of the Ultima series jaded me against heavy male marketing, or at least marketing that discounts women (especially in RPGs), and Bioware has it doubly tough from me because Origin, the company that made Ultima, also ended up being owned by EA. I got very worried when I heard Bioware had been bought/acquired/absorbed. Once bitten, twice shy I guess. I didn't look at ME's marketing in much depth, but as all the basic images I saw were stubble-chinned m!shep I assumed that was an accurate depiction of what the game would give me.

Add all that together, and I doubted ME was a game I wanted to play after all. It seemed to have nothing going for it that I really liked in my gameplay. Point 3 felt like the nail in the coffin rather than the actual reason I never went out of my way to buy it myself. I was genuinely surprised when I heard you could play a fem!Shep, but like I said, even now that I know there's character creation in ME, I still haven't gotten around to playing it.

So it takes more than being able to play a girl to get me to play a game. Unless it's a franchise I'm familiar with though, or have heard good things about, having the gender choice just means I'm more likely to give it a shot.

Finally, if Bioware made a male protag only game in a setting I had a strong interest in, then sure I'd pick it up. My protest has always been more 'If both genders are present, then give both some decent media exposure. Cater to your whole audience!' rather than 'If only one gender is present I'll never play your stupid game.'

OTOH, I'm sure there are players out there who are more exclusive in their gender-gaming habits than I.

Edit: So, yeah, sorry. I don't like big guns. I prefer big swords. I'll let you decide what that says about my femininity.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 19 octobre 2011 - 10:35 .

[Aviena]

krissyjf wrote...

But I would say, simply because BioWare gives we female gamers an option to play as a female PC, doesn't mean that the game was developed and written with the female PC in mind. For once, I would like to see BioWare develop/center one of their Dragon Age games around a female character- around a female protagonist- and let the male PC be the option. For once, I would like to see an entire marketing campaign centered around the female protagonist, instead of the male one.

Disclaimer: have not read whole nine pages, just want to chip in.
As a female player who almost exlusively plays female protagonists, I don't feel that Bioware has ever sidelined my character because of her gender. Sure, maleShep/Hawke are always on the boxes, but when we get to the important stuff (the story!!11!1) Bioware always balances the losses with gains, for both genders.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Aviena wrote...

krissyjf wrote...

But I would say, simply because BioWare gives we female gamers an option to play as a female PC, doesn't mean that the game was developed and written with the female PC in mind. For once, I would like to see BioWare develop/center one of their Dragon Age games around a female character- around a female protagonist- and let the male PC be the option. For once, I would like to see an entire marketing campaign centered around the female protagonist, instead of the male one.

Disclaimer: have not read whole nine pages, just want to chip in.
As a female player who almost exlusively plays female protagonists, I don't feel that Bioware has ever sidelined my character because of her gender. Sure, maleShep/Hawke are always on the boxes, but when we get to the important stuff (the story!!11!1) Bioware always balances the losses with gains, for both genders.

I tend to agree with Aviena here. While marketing has generally been geared towards male gamers, and female PCs have come second in the art/animation department more than once, I've never really had any complaints about how the actual stories in their games treat a female PC compared to their male counterparts. They get just as much content, and both genders sometimes get options or scenarios not available to the other.

In fact, DA2 went so gender neutral for the PC (in that male or female, you can do anything exactly the same) I've gotten to the point of concern where lack of recognising gender diversity might become a limiting issue in terms of creativity. The game seemed so concerned with complete gender equality (which Origins didn't have) that it came across to me as unrealistic, even bland. Gender issues are huge and I think it's a mistake to ignore the potential stories and points of view you can get from such a subject (one of the reasons I loved both sides of the City Elf Origin).

But enough derailing from me >.< I certainly wouldn't protest a Bioware game with a female-centric PC either. XD

[Vralenalien]

I am a long time male gamer and story and the settings are the main reasons why I buy the games, but if I've not heard of the game (rare thing these days, but it still happen from time to time) and only see it's box in the store I'm more likely to pass it on if it has male character on the box since you can see that everywhere. I may end up buying those games later when I've learned more about them, but even then male character on the box is off putting. Because it usually feels a cliche.

Even if the company who made the game is Bioware who's games I've enjoyed since Baldur's gate (which doesn't have either male or female on the box). I hesitate of buying them if the box cover is male. It took friend to recommend Mass Effect to me before I finally bought it.

Stranglely enough Planescape: Torment having only male protagonist did not bother me at all.

If the box has female character on it I am more likely to pick it up and read what it is about. Specially if the female is realisticly portrayed which is kind of rare thing on the cover arts.

Sole reason why I ordered ME3 CE is because it has FemShep on it.

I do also mainly play as female character. 8 times of 10 my character is female. Reason is mostly same why I pass games with male cover art. Male hero feels so used concept. I enjoy playing male characters, but it's much harder to get in to the feeling that it's my character instead of some generic template of male hero that has been reused countless of times.

Lately I've also noticed that it is increasingly harder for me to get interested in games with pre-defined male lead like the new Deus Ex or The WItchers. Having so many games with choice has made me expect it on every RPG out there. Now that those don't have the choice I am less likely to buy them even if I'd play it through as a male character as well as female.

So to me marketing games by using only male protagonist feels extremely stupid and waste of potential if there is also female to choose from. Ideally they should just use both.

[astreqwerty]

2 words: Lara Croft

[DA_GamerGal]

Arken wrote...

The Dragon Age II trailer is horrible by comparison. It focuses completely on male Hawke. It never gave that feeling of Hawke being on a team and is solely advertised Male Hawke like he was the protagonist. In my opinion the best thing for an RPG to do it to advertise multiple characters and not identify which one is the main character. Just show them all being epic and people will buy. No need to focus on gender.

The trailer also filled me with false hope of the game being about Hawke fighting a Qunari invasion. Instead that was a single quest. 

It's funny, but I never gave much thought to how games were being promoted/marketed until I saw the DA2 trailer and the DA2 web site. For some reason it annoyed me that BioWare chose to focus solely on the male version of Hawke.

But I do like your idea about advertising all the main characters in an RPG ( or any other genre of game for that matter), but most game companies would probably view that as an unnecessary added expense.

[schalafi]

When I played a fem Hawke in DA2, I noticed that whenever I stepped in a trap my pc gave out a distinctly "masculine" bellow. Just a little oversight, devs?

[DA_GamerGal]

maxernst wrote...

IAnd I don't think that Bioware's games are designed with a male PC in mind at all.  In fact, if you think about DA:O, the romance option that has by far the biggest impact on your game experience is Alistair, who is only available (without mods) to a female PC.  And other than the romances, the sex of the character doesn't make much difference, which is true in the vast majority of RPG's.

Which you could say, supports my point. In DA2 the only thing that BioWare did was take the original male protagonist, and change the gender. So we have a second version of Hawke that looks female and sounds female, but acts and reacts exactly like the male protagonist in every single situation.

If the sex of the character doesn't make any difference at all, aside from looks, than it really isn't a true RPG. Let's face it, men and woman are very different in the way they think and in the way they relate to various situations and people.

If DA2 had taken this fact into consideration, the game would have been so much better. If that had been done in DA:O, that game would have been phenomenal.

[DA_GamerGal]

Aviena wrote...

Disclaimer: have not read whole nine pages, just want to chip in.
As a female player who almost exlusively plays female protagonists, I don't feel that Bioware has ever sidelined my character because of her gender. Sure, maleShep/Hawke are always on the boxes, but when we get to the important stuff (the story!!11!1) Bioware always balances the losses with gains, for both genders.

But actually, that is part of the problem. DA2 become too gender neutral, in terms of how both Hawke versions acted and reacted. Other than having the voice, body, and clothing of a female, everything else about FemHawke was exactly the same as Male Hawke.

I'm sorry, but males and females are very different in terms of how they each think, act, and relate to the world/situations, and people around them. Just ask my husband. Even after almost 25 years of marriage, he still can't figure out how my mind works.

So even when given a choice of gender in games, you really are just playing the same character. The only difference comes down to outward appearance.

[Fallstar]

So long as I still had the option of playing as a male character, it wouldn't bother me if a female PC was displayed on the front. I mean, it'd still have the Dragon Age name on the front, so I'd know the core gameplay is going to be the same either way right? (see what I did there). I doubt I'd get the game if the only option was to be a female protaganist, I tried it once in Origins, but I just got bored. Whether that was because it was my umpteenth playthrough by that point or that I couldn't identify with the character, I don't know. I don't have any kind of problem with those who play female characters and are male (or vice versa). Besides, is the proposed situation not exactly how it is for female Dragon Age fans at the moment? So I don't really see the issue.

And a final word: people weren't honestly being serious when they suggested that someone's masculinity/femininity depended on the gender of the character you play in a video game were they?

[DA_GamerGal]

Christine Burgess-Quemard, the Executive Director of Worldwide Studios (Ubisoft) said the following in an article that is in #223 of Game Informer magazine:

"What's new to us is that we used to address mainly males between 10 and 45-years old, but now we've learned. with the casual market, there are also some girls out there waiting to play video games. And then we are learning that there's also female 20-45 year olds who also like playing on Facebook. So we are adapting."

When I read that, it confirmed my fears on how many of the major game companies are viewing female gamers.

1) That they don't seem to even know that we are out there playing.

2) That female gamers are associated with the casual game market.

3) That older female gamers (like myself)  most likely play games primarily on Facebook.


Are female gamers really that rare?

I'm glad that BioWare is better informed when it comes to female gamers. At least they seem to be...

[tmp7704]

krissyjf wrote...

If the sex of the character doesn't make any difference at all, aside from looks, than it really isn't a true RPG. Let's face it, men and woman are very different in the way they think and in the way they relate to various situations and people.

Let's face it, people are very different. Gender has some part in that, but there's enough overleap between the sexes that if you try to make generalizations like that, they'll wind up both sweeping and crude, as well as annoying to individuals who happen to disagree with them for whatever reasons.

To put it in other words, neither male nor female Hawke acts in a way that no man or woman possibly would.

Modifié par tmp7704, 19 octobre 2011 - 05:53 .

[Wozearly]

krissyjf wrote...

But actually, that is part of the problem. DA2 become too gender neutral, in terms of how both Hawke versions acted and reacted. Other than having the voice, body, and clothing of a female, everything else about FemHawke was exactly the same as Male Hawke.

I'm sorry, but males and females are very different in terms of how they each think, act, and relate to the world/situations, and people around them. Just ask my husband. Even after almost 25 years of marriage, he still can't figure out how my mind works.

So even when given a choice of gender in games, you really are just playing the same character. The only difference comes down to outward appearance.

Completely agree - I'd actually say that its the main part of the problem. Shadow of Light Dragon made the same point very well further up.

Speaking from experience as a pen and paper GM, male characters tend to make good (ie, easy to create) protagonists for RPGs. Its easier to give them more 'direct' reasons and motivations and given the natural effects of testosterone it feels entirely consistent that when faced with adversity, your party of skilled, experienced and confident male warriors / mages / rogues feel comfortable resorting swiftly to combat and it doesn't seem out of place if characters place a low focus on social interaction.

Female protagonists can sometimes feel 'wrong' if you parachute them into the same situation without making any adaptations. That's not to say they can't have the same motivations, but if you're not careful about how you consider the options available to players then you can end up with the female protagonist taking on the persona of a man who just happens to be in a woman's body...or they end up in the anti-stereotype mould of the "Woman who is every bit as good as a man at being a man and isn't afraid to put them to shame about it. Constantly."

Part of this is, ultimately, down to design and marketing. Most gamers are men (although this is slowly balancing out) and most game design teams are predominantly male. So its tempting, and often easier, to design with this in mind and then add the option to make your male character have a female look and/or VA.

Sadly the marketing returns for games and films show that people on average empathise more with a protagonist of their own gender, and this does impact sales. So if the market is mainly male, it makes good commercial sense to focus the marketing on the male protagonist - even if there is a choice.

Ironically, people tend to get the gender balance better with antagonists, as female antagonists often act and react in a way that is more recognisable for their gender - there are some surprisingly good female antagonists lurking out there in the gaming and film world (and in DA terms, I would include the Mother from Awakening in that).

Eerily enough, I think Bioware on the whole aren't too bad at this, but they're much better with the female companions than they are with the female protagonists.

[Wozearly]

krissyjf wrote...

Christine Burgess-Quemard, the Executive Director of Worldwide Studios (Ubisoft) said the following in an article that is in #223 of Game Informer magazine:

"What's new to us is that we used to address mainly males between 10 and 45-years old, but now we've learned. with the casual market, there are also some girls out there waiting to play video games. And then we are learning that there's also female 20-45 year olds who also like playing on Facebook. So we are adapting."

When I read that, it confirmed my fears on how many of the major game companies are viewing female gamers.

1) That they don't seem to even know that we are out there playing.

2) That female gamers are associated with the casual game market.

3) That older female gamers (like myself)  most likely play games primarily on Facebook.


Are female gamers really that rare?

I'm glad that BioWare is better informed when it comes to female gamers. At least they seem to be...

If you take it as a sweeping generalisation, I imagine that the guy from Ubisoft is probably right to say that if you look at casual games there is a higher proportion of female players, and that Facebook (a very social site that does lots of casual games) is a particularly attractive platform to female casual gamers.

He's also incredibly patronising to imply that women have been 'waiting' to play video games all this time.


As a semi-scientific yardstick, the audience of my YouTube channel is primarily subscription-based MMO players and is divided 89% male / 11% female.

That's not a genre known for kindness to the non-casual audience, and I have no reason to believe that women are more likely to look at fan content than men are.

So no, I don't think they're rare. They are, however, a comparative minority of players...and unfortunately, that means they don't get as much love and are more likely to be pigeonholed.


Edit: Now with correct numbers. Men are c.90% of the audience, not c.80% as stated originally.

Modifié par Wozearly, 19 octobre 2011 - 06:18 .

[tmp7704]

Wozearly wrote...

Female protagonists can sometimes feel 'wrong' if you parachute them into the same situation without making any adaptations. That's not to say they can't have the same motivations, but if you're not careful about how you consider the options available to players then you can end up with the female protagonist taking on the persona of a man who just happens to be in a woman's body...

If a female character being direct and decisive about her actions feels "wrong" then i'd say the only "wrong" part in that is the mentality of the person who thinks that's somehow "wrong" and requires "adaptations".