462 réponses à ce sujet

[atheelogos]

sorentoft wrote...

General User wrote...

atheelogos wrote...
Why? They haven't done anyting to us.

They've presented themselves as hostile and have demonstrated a dangerous lack of understanding.  In short: the geth are a threat.  Be it at the negotiating table, or on the battlefield, threats need to be neutralized.

I would be more worried that they are making themselves into a true AI. That is a true threat, not some lack of understanding between both sides of the table.

What's wrong with true AI? And why do you assume they will atomatically be hostile? And why don't you consider modern Geth "true AI."?

[CroGamer002]

atheelogos wrote...

Really dude? lol Cerberus oh wait SPOILER! Cerberus will be dealt with by the end of ME3 and the Batarian Hegemony, or whats left of it, is in no condition to fight anyone. Remember the Reapers started with their territory. 

*ahem*

Most of Alliance and Turian Hierarchy is attacked by Reapers but still kicking, while not even half of Batarian Hegemony is attacked.

Also it is not confirmed that Cerberus can be destroyed in ME3.
Hell, we still don't know entire story of Cerberus joining the Reapers.

There are still some hints that game after E3 from developers that Illusive Man may not be a bad guy. In other words, Cerberus can still be divided.

While part that didn't join the Reapers still aren't the good guys.


So yeah, those 2 factions can be a danger for Geth.


Unless you beat ME3 then you're right about it.

[atheelogos]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Or you know, they could send something a little smaller and hail the Citadel as they approach. They could have done this a long time ago before the Heretics attacked.

What makes you think they'd even get to the Citadel? They'd have to get past fleets of ships that guard relays leading to the Citadel. Chances are they would have been destroyed long before they got to their destination, even if they had a msg of peace.

You have to remember organics don't trust them at all. For all they know that small Geth ship could have been on a sucide run. I mean really this is akin to letting a North korean ship pull into a Virginia port. 

Why do the Geth have to go to the Citadel in the first place? That's as absurd as insisting that the Geth would have to send a giant warship.

Ambassadors don't need to be dreadnaughts, and they don't need to be sent directly to the other capital to make contact with another faction.

Agreed. I only mentioned the Citadel cuz  Deden mentioned hailing the station as they approched.

[Dean_the_Young]

atheelogos wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

and they should integrate with the rest of the 'Citadel society' (or whatever you call it)

And if they don't want to?

Their chance came and went. Now it's time to control or destroy them.

Why? They haven't done anyting to us.

A good number of them thought that unprovoked galactic genocide was a good idea, and the rest didn't see any reason to stop them or even warn those about to be genocided.

[Dean_the_Young]

atheelogos wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Or you know, they could send something a little smaller and hail the Citadel as they approach. They could have done this a long time ago before the Heretics attacked.

What makes you think they'd even get to the Citadel? They'd have to get past fleets of ships that guard relays leading to the Citadel. Chances are they would have been destroyed long before they got to their destination, even if they had a msg of peace.

You have to remember organics don't trust them at all. For all they know that small Geth ship could have been on a sucide run. I mean really this is akin to letting a North korean ship pull into a Virginia port. 

Why do the Geth have to go to the Citadel in the first place? That's as absurd as insisting that the Geth would have to send a giant warship.

Ambassadors don't need to be dreadnaughts, and they don't need to be sent directly to the other capital to make contact with another faction.

Agreed. I only mentioned the Citadel cuz  Deden mentioned hailing the station as they approched.

Saphra wasn't being literal about approaching the Citadel either. Saphra was being figurative.

[sorentoft]

atheelogos wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

General User wrote...

atheelogos wrote...
Why? They haven't done anyting to us.

They've presented themselves as hostile and have demonstrated a dangerous lack of understanding.  In short: the geth are a threat.  Be it at the negotiating table, or on the battlefield, threats need to be neutralized.

I would be more worried that they are making themselves into a true AI. That is a true threat, not some lack of understanding between both sides of the table.

What's wrong with true AI? And why do you assume they will atomatically be hostile? And why don't you consider modern Geth "true AI."?

Because it is stated that they are not (They lack the same sense of being one like the reapers), they are a lesser form of AI however - a step above a VI. The problem is not that they will necessarily be hostile as a true AI, it is that they will surpass humanity to such a length that we cannot catch up and will - eventually - become to them like dogs are to humans.

Modifié par sorentoft, 19 octobre 2011 - 12:15 .

[Thompson family]

Saphra Deden wrote...

You know, I love Koris.

When asked if the quarians and geth can live in peace his response is, "I don't know, but I think we all deserve to find out."

I wish I could ask him this in response: "What if the answer is 'no'?"

It would help the case of us who are arguing for peace if the ranking Quarian advocate for it wasn't the "whining suit-wetter" that he is.

Modifié par Thompson family, 19 octobre 2011 - 02:42 .

[Thompson family]

All those arguing for how easy it would have been for the Geth to make contact with organics and interact with them should read all the hostile and paranoid comments on this thread.

It's also worth pointing out that the only people who had any real interaction with the Geth at all before Shep interrogated Legion were the Quarians. We can imagine what they told the rest of the galaxy about the Geth.

And had they made contact, what would they say: "Hi. We're a bunch of sapient machines who just killed most of our former masters until there's fewer than 20 million left. We have no government to represent. We're really just one big super machine trying to pull our thoughts together. Oh, and we're building up a big fleet, too. Take us to your leader."

Seriously, perhaps the reason the Geth have isolated themselves so is because they just overthrew their masters and didn't want to trigger a war with organics, which was at least a possible outcome. Keep in mind that the Council has a legal ban against development of AIs and that ban precedes the "awakening" of the Geth. After all, Tali clearly says in ME1 that the Quarians "didn't do anything illegal," or not intentionally, anyway. The changes were subtle and incremental. After it turned into an AI, their ambassador was kicked out of the Citadel.

The Geth, as an AI, are a rouge state (to use today's jargon), something that never should have been created as far as the Council is concerned. It is beyound belief that the Geth would not have found this out simply by examining the records the Quarians left behind.

Modifié par Thompson family, 19 octobre 2011 - 03:15 .

[General User]

atheelogos wrote...
"They've presented themselves as hostile and have demonstrated a dangerous lack of understanding" From their perspective the same could be said for organics.

Correct to an extent.  Organics lack of understanding of the geth is due to ignorance, not a native lack of ability to comprehend.  The same cannot be said of the geth.

atheelogos wrote...
"Everyone wasn't trying to kill the geth.  Whatever their public stance on AI in general, the Council remained neutral when it came to actual fighting." Not really. If you remember the Council sent a fleet to fight the Geth if they came out of their cluster. I wouldn't call that neutral.

The Council remained neutral when it came to actual fighting.  Meaning the Council did not participate in the Morning War.  Don't confuse Council's stance during the war with the adversarial relationship that developed between it and the geth.

Anacronian Stryx wrote...
Why? - Is the galaxy running out of space or something so everybody has huddle up and be real good neighbors or something?

Being neighborly is never a bad idea no matter how much space you have.  But amount of space, or volume of territory isn't really the issue, at least as far as the geth and the rest of the galaxy are concerned.  it's like they say in the old westerns, "This town ain't big enough for the both of us."

Now, if referring to the geth allowing the quarians to return to Rannoch, then space is very much a concern.  If there is to be peace between the quarians and geth then the two will need separate, mutually defensible borders, they cannot share the same star-system.  Asking two FTL capable civilizations to do so is not sustainable.  All the moreso when there's as much bad blood between the two as there is between the geth and the quarians.  It would be like asking two agricultural societies (who hate each other) to draw water from the same well. 

Anacronian Stryx wrote...
what part of 'just leaving them alone is so unacceptable?

The leaders of every nation (the Alliance, the Hierarchy, the UAR, etc.) have a responsibility to their citizens to protect them from foreign threats, including the geth.

In the three hundred years since the end of the Morning War, the geth and the galactic powers eyed each other warily across the Perseus Veil, each waiting for the day the other would send an army forth.  Then one day, the geth did just that.  The leaders of every power in the galaxy would be deeply remiss in their duties to their own citizens if they left the geth alone and returned to waiting for the next group of geth to get a wild wire in their I/O port and start a new jihad.

At this point, if you're inclined to mention that it was the Heretics not the Orthodox geth who kicked off the Eden Prime War, then you're missing the point.  If the Orthodox Geth wanted to keep the status quo, then they had a responsibility to maintain it against anyone who would threaten it, including the Heretics.  Whatever reasons they may have had for the decisions they made, they either failed in recognizing or they failed in fulfilling that responsibility, and as a consequence, it is no longer acceptable for the rest of the galaxy to leave the geth alone.

The geth now have another choice to make, they can either fight the rest of the galaxy to restore the status quo, or they can engage constructively with the rest of the galaxy.  If Legion is any indication it seems they have chosen the later.

Anacronian Stryx wrote...
Hell when the Yagh killed the council diplomats the council had no problem in isolating the Yagh - so why would isolating the Geth be so unacceptable?

The yahg are monitored and contained, quarantined if you will.  Their isolation was imposed and is maintained by an outside power they could not hope to overcome.  Unless you are advocating a full scale war against the geth where any survivors are herded onto AmericanIndian-style reservations, a comparison to the yahg is inappropriate.

[Thompson family]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A good number of them thought that unprovoked (emphasis added) galactic genocide was a good idea, and the rest didn't see any reason to stop them or even warn those about to be genocided.

DtY, if this is the geth you're talking about, that's just wrong. Tali clearly tells Shep in ME1 that the Geth revolt didn't start until the Quarians found out the Geth were sapient and tried to shut them all down -- to kill them.

That's hardly unprovoked. Legion doesn't even dispute the Quarian version of events in ME2. As for Geth mercilessness, vids of Legion on Tali's loyalty mission show him saying that Quarians have attacked the Geth every time, 100 percent, they believed they had a chance of winning. Now they're even talking about a desperate last throw at taking back the homeworld even though the odds now are very probably worse than they were at the start of the morning war.

Modifié par Thompson family, 19 octobre 2011 - 03:14 .

[Saber Wolf]

Personally, I don't want a 'peace between the two of the races' ending. I want to either get to choose the Geth or the Quarians, 'cause the choice is pretty hard for me to make.

[General User]

Thompson family wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A good number of them thought that unprovoked (emphasis added) galactic genocide was a good idea, and the rest didn't see any reason to stop them or even warn those about to be genocided.

DtY, if this is the geth you're talking about, that's just wrong. Tali clearly tells Shep in ME1 that the Geth revolt didn't start until the Quarians found out the Geth were sapient and tried to shut them all down -- to kill them.

I'm a fair cert he's refering to the Heretics and the Eden Prime War there.

[Sajuro]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

To the other Quarians to tell them that what Rael Zorah did was unacceptable.

I think it's both. He clearly wants to see if they can live in peace with the geth. So he wants the message sent to both parties that this kind of thing is not acceptable.

Why would  Koris think the geth would find out that Tali had been exiled, though? Is he planning to post "Tali'Zorah has been exiled for anti-geth war crimes" on the extranet in the hopes that some geth will read it? (Keep in mind this all occurs before we meet Legion)

It could also happen after you get Legion, and Legion mentions that Geth troll the message boards of the extranet, so someone posting "Oh My Keelah, Tali Zorah was just exiled for expieremnting on Geth :x"

[Zombiedude101]

I remember Legion mentioning that the Geth would be willing to co-exist with the "Creators", but every form of contact between them has led to attack from the Quarians.

tl;dr

Quarians need to stop being antagonistic towards the Geth.

[SnowHeart1]

Thompson family wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A good number of them thought that unprovoked (emphasis added) galactic genocide was a good idea, and the rest didn't see any reason to stop them or even warn those about to be genocided.

DtY, if this is the geth you're talking about, that's just wrong. Tali clearly tells Shep in ME1 that the Geth revolt didn't start until the Quarians found out the Geth were sapient and tried to shut them all down -- to kill them.

That's hardly unprovoked. Legion doesn't even dispute the Quarian version of events in ME2. As for Geth mercilessness, vids of Legion on Tali's loyalty mission show him saying that Quarians have attacked the Geth every time, 100 percent, they believed they had a chance of winning. Now they're even talking about a desperate last throw at taking back the homeworld even though the odds now are very probably worse than they were at the start of the morning war.

Good luck convincing him. The Talimancers have well and thoroughly circled the wagons here and will not listen to such blasphemy.

These arguments are becoming incredible rote.
Geth: You tried to kill us, so we defended ourselves.
Quarian: You would have killed us, so we tried to deactivate you.
Geth: By trying to deactivate us, you were trying to kill us. We had no intention of harming you until you tried to kill us.
Quarian: Doesn't matter. You would have tried to kill us eventually.
Geth: It is impossible for you to know that with certainty. You are speculating.
Quarian: No, we're quite certain.
Geth: So you can predict the future?
Quarian: ... You would have tried to kill us. We just defended ourselves.
Geth: But we hadn't attacked you.
Quarian: But eventually you did! And you nearly killed all of us.
Geth: But you were going to kill all of us.
Quarian: But we didn't.
Geth: Yet it was clearly your intention.
Quarian: But it was justified, as you are clearly very dangerous.
Geth: Why are we dangerous? We defended ourselves when you tried to kill us.
Quarian: Only because you would have killed us if we didn't, and you nearly did kill all of us when we did!
Geth: ... *flashlight blinks* ... You are irrational.
Quarian: You're murderers!
Geth: So are you. Are we worse than you only because we were more effective at killing you than you were at killing us?
Quarian:  ... It doesn't matter!  You can't kill a machine!

Rinse and repeat.  I would ask if it's so hard to admit that both sides made mistakes, but then I remember this is the internet and some people get off on arguing.

[General User]

Thompson family wrote...
And had they made contact, what would they say: "Hi. We're a bunch of sapient machines who just killed most of our former masters until there's fewer than 20 million left. We have no government to represent. We're really just one big super machine trying to pull our thoughts together. Oh, and we're building up a big fleet, too. Take us to your leader."

Change the underlined portion to "Oh, and we've BUILT up a MASSIVE fleet, too.  Don't make us use it." and you've pretty much got a winner.

Modifié par General User, 19 octobre 2011 - 03:39 .

[Shermos]

Zombiedude101 wrote...

I remember Legion mentioning that the Geth would be willing to co-exist with the "Creators", but every form of contact between them has led to attack from the Quarians.

tl;dr

Quarians need to stop being antagonistic towards the Geth.

This. If I have to sacrifice any races in ME3, the Quarians will be one. The Geth seem pretty bent on peacefully coexisting with organic races. Their reputation comes from being very good at defending themselves. 

[aiDvEoN]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A good number of them thought that unprovoked (emphasis added) galactic genocide was a good idea, and the rest didn't see any reason to stop them or even warn those about to be genocided.

DtY, if this is the geth you're talking about, that's just wrong. Tali clearly tells Shep in ME1 that the Geth revolt didn't start until the Quarians found out the Geth were sapient and tried to shut them all down -- to kill them.

That's hardly unprovoked. Legion doesn't even dispute the Quarian version of events in ME2. As for Geth mercilessness, vids of Legion on Tali's loyalty mission show him saying that Quarians have attacked the Geth every time, 100 percent, they believed they had a chance of winning. Now they're even talking about a desperate last throw at taking back the homeworld even though the odds now are very probably worse than they were at the start of the morning war.

Good luck convincing him. The Talimancers have well and thoroughly circled the wagons here and will not listen to such blasphemy.

*snip*

He's talking about the Heretics running off to join Sovereign on the super-fun happy Kill All Organics campaign.  The fact that the Geth didn't even attempt to warn anyone cost a lot of lives.

As for the snip, the problem is that the General Shutdown attempt was the best option the quarians had.  The Geth are showing signs of developing sentience and evolving to AI status.  At this point, there's two ways they can go

Option 1: Do nothing
At this point they risk the essentially enslaved machines following the trend of other AIs and turning hostile.  Geth are omnipresent in quarian society, so this is a Very Bad Thing.  They will also incur the wrath of the Citadel for openly tolerating and operating an AI system, and as the FCW demonstrated, the Turians interpret "enforcing Citadel Law" as " shoot the offending party with really big guns".  

Option 2: Shut down the Geth
While they'll still incur Citadel sanctions, because the Council doesn't believe in natural justice for non-council species it seems (Seriously, the quarian situation and the lack of any sanctions against the Turians following the FCW makes me question if they've ever heard of Mens Rea), they can hopefully stop them developing full sentience and avoid the possibility of a robot revolution, once they isolate the source of this latest development.

As it turns out, they got the worst of both worlds, but hindsight is 20/20.

[aiDvEoN]

Zombiedude101 wrote...

I remember Legion mentioning that the Geth would be willing to co-exist with the "Creators", but every form of contact between them has led to attack from the Quarians.

tl;dr

Quarians need to stop being antagonistic towards the Geth.

If I've said it once, I've said it 3,000,012 times.

Especially in the wake of the Eden Prime war, the quarians have no reason to believe that the Geth aren't still intent on killing the rest of them off.  No reason at all.  None.  Zero.  Zilch.  Nada.

The True Geth have not communicated this critical information in any way, other than via Legion, who only explains it when Shep brings it up.

[Dean_the_Young]

Thompson family wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A good number of them thought that unprovoked (emphasis added) galactic genocide was a good idea, and the rest didn't see any reason to stop them or even warn those about to be genocided.

DtY, if this is the geth you're talking about, that's just wrong. Tali clearly tells Shep in ME1 that the Geth revolt didn't start until the Quarians found out the Geth were sapient and tried to shut them all down -- to kill them.

That's hardly unprovoked. Legion doesn't even dispute the Quarian version of events in ME2. As for Geth mercilessness, vids of Legion on Tali's loyalty mission show him saying that Quarians have attacked the Geth every time, 100 percent, they believed they had a chance of winning. Now they're even talking about a desperate last throw at taking back the homeworld even though the odds now are very probably worse than they were at the start of the morning war.

I'm talking about the events of ME1, Thompson. When Geth (Heretic) Fleets invaded Alliance and Citadel space in support of the Reaper genocide, and the rest of the Geth (True Geth) not only knew what happened, but made no motion to alert, warn, intervene, or even distinguish themselves from the Heretics.


The truly skeptical who don't simply believe anything because a Bioware companion character says it should actually question if there is such a split in the first place. The only testimony of a Geth-Heretic split we come from comes from... Legion and the Geth.

If Legion is a spy/deceiver for a truly Reaper-aligned Geth, there's no possible independent verification Shepard can do to prove or disprove it. Nothing Legion does is particularly vital or detrimental to the Reapers or the Geth to invalidate suspicions of being a double-agent, and depending on how much the Reapers would like to insert someone into Shepard's inner circle a destroyed Geth station or even the already-doomed Collector Base would be minor costs.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 19 octobre 2011 - 04:05 .

[Dean_the_Young]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A good number of them thought that unprovoked (emphasis added) galactic genocide was a good idea, and the rest didn't see any reason to stop them or even warn those about to be genocided.

DtY, if this is the geth you're talking about, that's just wrong. Tali clearly tells Shep in ME1 that the Geth revolt didn't start until the Quarians found out the Geth were sapient and tried to shut them all down -- to kill them.

That's hardly unprovoked. Legion doesn't even dispute the Quarian version of events in ME2. As for Geth mercilessness, vids of Legion on Tali's loyalty mission show him saying that Quarians have attacked the Geth every time, 100 percent, they believed they had a chance of winning. Now they're even talking about a desperate last throw at taking back the homeworld even though the odds now are very probably worse than they were at the start of the morning war.

Good luck convincing him. The Talimancers have well and thoroughly circled the wagons here and will not listen to such blasphemy.

...well, it's pretty obvious you don't know me at all if you think I of all people am a Tali-mancer.

[General User]

aiDvEoN,

Minor, minor point: the Council did intervene to end the FCW, and part of that deal included the Hierarchy being forced to pay the Alliance reparations.

CONSPIRACY THEORY:
Of course the Council was hoping to use the Alliance to solve their "batarian problem" and, after 2nd Shanxi, the asari and salarians began to see humanity as a potential counter-balance to the turians as well.
/CONSPIRACY THEORY

Modifié par General User, 19 octobre 2011 - 04:01 .

[SnowHeart1]

@ AiDvEoN:  I know. However, the point I was trying to make is that these arguments always boil down to a certain exchange. People can add and argue nuances, but it all boils down to the same thing over and over. The original question has already been answered, but the thread has (inevitably) degenerated into the usual "I'm a bigger victim than you and my actions were justified because of x" drivel. Meh. It's a complicated issue and was purposefully designed as such by Bioware. Anyone who tries to boil it down into an issue of black and white morality has had it completely fly over his or her head.

@ Dean: No, I don't know you. And "talimancer" was a misused term. I do think you're engaged in a bit of Quarian apologism here, but that's not the same as being a talimancer and even then I could have misinterpreted what you were saying. More to the point, I was making a larger point about the pro-quarian faction here rather than you specifically. Sorry if it seemed like I was singling you out for that. Just generally frustrated with these kinds of threads.

Modifié par SnowHeart1, 19 octobre 2011 - 04:06 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Except, funnily enough, most people arguing against the Geth aren't arguing on any sort of grounds that the Quarians are bigger victims. Many aren't even siding with the Quarians at all, but have their own non-Quarian reasons for not supporting the Geth.

[aiDvEoN]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

@ AiDvEoN:  I know. However, the point I was trying to make is that these arguments always boil down to a certain exchange. People can add and argue nuances, but it all boils down to the same thing over and over. The original question has already been answered, but the thread has (inevitably) degenerated into the usual "I'm a bigger victim than you and my actions were justified because of x" drivel. Meh. It's a complicated issue and was purposefully designed as such by Bioware. Anyone who tries to boil it down into an issue of black and white morality has had it completely fly over his or her head.

No argument there.  I maintain two main beliefs on it.  Firstly, that if anyone is to blame, its the Citadel for letting the war go on and sitting on their hands while a civilisation died, and continuing to keep them on their knees afterwards.  And secondly, as I said above, the Geth awakening was a point of no return.  They were essentially screwed no matter what they did.