462 réponses à ce sujet

[SnowHeart1]

Dean, I disagree. The Quarians in this instance are basically a metaphore for organics (humans) and our fear of the unknown and being eclipsed by technology. What I interpretted and objected to in your posts is an application of organic "logic", rationale and perspectives to a synthetic species. Doing that is bound to fail. It leads to miscommunication and misunderstanding that is at the root of what happened between the Quarians and Geth. Maybe I misinterpretted what you were trying to say; I confess my patience for these conversations is (obviously) thin.

Modifié par SnowHeart1, 19 octobre 2011 - 04:14 .

[Dean_the_Young]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

Dean, I disagree. The Quarians in this instance are basically a metaphore for organics (humans) and our fear of the unknown and being eclipsed by technology. What I interpretted and objected to in your posts is an application of organic "logic", rationale and perspectives to a synthetic species. Doing that is bound to fail. It leads to miscommunication and misunderstand that is at the root of what happened between the Quarians and Geth. Maybe I misinterpretted what you were trying to say; I confess my patience for these conversations is (obviously) thin.

You misinterpretted the moment you willingly chose to attribute what people were saying to 'metaphors' for a target of your choice.

If you choose to believe that people don't mean what they say but rather what you 'interpret' the metaphor you choose too see, of course you're going to disagree with what people said. They didn't say it.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 19 octobre 2011 - 04:15 .

[SnowHeart1]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
*snip*

 They really need an eye-roll emoticon here. Fine, I chose to interpret you as something you're doing a pretty good job as holding yourself out as, and I stick to my original point... these threads degenerate into nonsense.

[Dean_the_Young]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
*snip*

 They really need an eye-roll emoticon here. Fine, I chose to interpret you as something you're doing a pretty good job as holding yourself out as, and I stick to my original point... these threads degenerate into nonsense.

Then perhaps you should stop choosing to interpret what people say into things they don't say. That would reduce the nonsense... and the thread degeneration.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 19 octobre 2011 - 05:26 .

[Thompson family]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'm talking about the events of ME1, Thompson. When Geth (Heretic) Fleets invaded Alliance and Citadel space in support of the Reaper genocide, and the rest of the Geth (True Geth) not only knew what happened, but made no motion to alert, warn, intervene, or even distinguish themselves from the Heretics.

Ah. I misunderstood then. Sorry about that.

That is an excellent point. The only rebuttal I can make is one that relies on "out-of-game," or almost completely out-of-game, information.

The Human Alliance knows the Reaper threat is real. It knows this because researchers in a secret, highly illegal AI research project found Sovereign. This is all in the first book: "Mass Effect: Revelation." We catch a glimpse of the proof of this at the end of Kasumi's loyalty mission.

Even if the Alliance was not fully aware of what it found, it d*** well knows Sovereign is not a Geth construction. Yet it not only supports this false view. It's insistant about it, "swooping like vultures" on everything Shep said in the way of warnng.

Ever notice how Anderson's always on Shep's side, even at the cost of his own political isolation? Where does Anderson's certainly come from? Kathlee Sanders, that's who.

So why doesn't the Alliance tell anyone? We don't know yet -- and we don't know about the Geth, either.

If Legion is a spy/deceiver for a truly Reaper-aligned Geth, there's no possible independent verification Shepard can do to prove or disprove it. Nothing Legion does is particularly vital or detrimental to the Reapers or the Geth to invalidate suspicions of being a double-agent, and depending on how much the Reapers would like to insert someone into Shepard's inner circle a destroyed Geth station or even the already-doomed Collector Base would be minor costs.

I can't buy that because there is an option to destroy the Heretics and a lot of people who play this game take it. Also, the Heretics wouldn't be helping the Reapers if they knew they would not survive their return. They won't. We now know you can't make a Geth reaper. It requires a huge amount of organic and sapient "material." The Heretics are deceived by their Gods.

Modifié par Thompson family, 19 octobre 2011 - 05:51 .

[ADLegend21]

Saphra Deden wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

and they should integrate with the rest of the 'Citadel society' (or whatever you call it)

And if they don't want to?

Their chance came and went. Now it's time to control or destroy them.

Sounds like the Attitude they took with the Krogans who were not READY to intergrate with Citadel space and in the end they got nuked. The Geth ahd just gained sentience they needed and identiy and ar finding it with the dyson sphere. I'd say they won't intergrate until it's finished and they've all been uploaded to it for the first time.

[Shermos]

"Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'm talking about the events of ME1, Thompson. When Geth (Heretic) Fleets invaded Alliance and Citadel space in support of the Reaper genocide, and the rest of the Geth (True Geth) not only knew what happened, but made no motion to alert, warn, intervene, or even distinguish themselves from the Heretics."

Do you remember the big hole in Legion's chest? That's pretty much what happens when Geth come anywhere near organics. Shepherd is probably the first organic the true Geth have had the chance to communicate with in centuries.

Secondly, the organic civilisations all believe the Reapers are myth. The true Geth would have known this and searched for people of influence who knew otherwise. Shepherd for example. I'd say Legion's quest to find him (beginning not long after the battle of the citadel - when Shepherd's actions would have gone on public record - was the earliest the Geth could attempt to warn organics and stand a chance of actually getting the message through their thick skulls.

[atheelogos]

Mesina2 wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

Really dude? lol Cerberus oh wait SPOILER! Cerberus will be dealt with by the end of ME3 and the Batarian Hegemony, or whats left of it, is in no condition to fight anyone. Remember the Reapers started with their territory. 

*ahem*

Most of Alliance and Turian Hierarchy is attacked by Reapers but still kicking, while not even half of Batarian Hegemony is attacked.

Also it is not confirmed that Cerberus can be destroyed in ME3.
Hell, we still don't know entire story of Cerberus joining the Reapers.

There are still some hints that game after E3 from developers that Illusive Man may not be a bad guy. In other words, Cerberus can still be divided.

While part that didn't join the Reapers still aren't the good guys.


So yeah, those 2 factions can be a danger for Geth.


Unless you beat ME3 then you're right about it.

I'm pretty sure that the devs have already said that TIM is a major antagonist.

[Sajuro]

aiDvEoN wrote...

SnowHeart1 wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A good number of them thought that unprovoked (emphasis added) galactic genocide was a good idea, and the rest didn't see any reason to stop them or even warn those about to be genocided.

DtY, if this is the geth you're talking about, that's just wrong. Tali clearly tells Shep in ME1 that the Geth revolt didn't start until the Quarians found out the Geth were sapient and tried to shut them all down -- to kill them.

That's hardly unprovoked. Legion doesn't even dispute the Quarian version of events in ME2. As for Geth mercilessness, vids of Legion on Tali's loyalty mission show him saying that Quarians have attacked the Geth every time, 100 percent, they believed they had a chance of winning. Now they're even talking about a desperate last throw at taking back the homeworld even though the odds now are very probably worse than they were at the start of the morning war.

Good luck convincing him. The Talimancers have well and thoroughly circled the wagons here and will not listen to such blasphemy.

*snip*

He's talking about the Heretics running off to join Sovereign on the super-fun happy Kill All Organics campaign.  The fact that the Geth didn't even attempt to warn anyone cost a lot of lives.

As for the snip, the problem is that the General Shutdown attempt was the best option the quarians had.  The Geth are showing signs of developing sentience and evolving to AI status.  At this point, there's two ways they can go
*snip*

And how would that of gone if the hermit robot race says "Dude, there are a lot of us following an ancient starship to destroy organics" when Shepard can't even convince the council that Sovereign is a Reaper, or that Reapers exist, until he kills Sov right on their doorstep.
As for that snip, the Quarians had other options: Start treating the Geth as a sentient race on the down low, giving them some compensation for the dangerous jobs (geth bucks ) and when the council asks why there is suddenly an AI race the quarians could just say "Dude, we were just trying to make auto toasters, one thing led to another and bam, we have the Geth"
But instead they freaked the **** out and attempted to exterminate all of the geth.

[Dean_the_Young]

Shermos wrote...


Do you remember the big hole in Legion's chest? That's pretty much what happens when Geth come anywhere near organics. Shepherd is probably the first organic the true Geth have had the chance to communicate with in centuries.

Why does a military platform have to sneak into a heavily defended colony to make contact? (Especially since Legion, well, wasn't even trying to do that.)

Shepard isn't the first organic Geth have had the chance to communicate with. Shepard isn't even the first organic Legion has communicated with. Legion trolls gamers on the extranet all the time, going by the Shadow Broker files.

Secondly, the organic civilisations all believe the Reapers are myth. The true Geth would have known this and searched for people of influence who knew otherwise. Shepherd for example. I'd say Legion's quest to find him (beginning not long after the battle of the citadel - when Shepherd's actions would have gone on public record - was the earliest the Geth could attempt to warn organics and stand a chance of actually getting the message through their thick skulls.

So they just sat around with a stick up their ass when Anderson tried for years to convince people, refused to talk to the others in the Alliance and elsewhere who recognized the threat, and still didn't attempt to make contact for the centuries beforehand?

You're only painting them with a blacker brush than I was. Now the Geth aren't only uncarring isolationists, they refuse to approach anyone but Shepard when galactic survival is at stake.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 19 octobre 2011 - 11:13 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Thompson family wrote...

I can't buy that because there is an option to destroy the Heretics and a lot of people who play this game take it.

And what, really, do you destroy then? A space station with platforms. At most, the first geth expeditionary force which has already run its course in the Geth-Council War and was no longer a major force in the first place.

If there was no Geth-Heretic split, destroying the headquarters of a ruined expeditionary force in exchange for being a trusted, or at least accepted, ally would be worth the deal, wouldn't you think? 

Also, the Heretics wouldn't be helping the Reapers if they knew they would not survive their return. They won't. We now know you can't make a Geth reaper. It requires a huge amount of organic and sapient "material." The Heretics are deceived by their Gods.

Whose to say the Heretics don't know, as opposed to say don't care? Religious fundamentalism does that to people, including the whole 'violate principals of self-preservation' deal.

(Koolaid reference here.)

[Dean_the_Young]

Thompson family wrote...

So why doesn't the Alliance tell anyone? We don't know yet -- and we don't know about the Geth, either.

Assuming that is correct (I think Diddy has pointed out a key part of that theory in the past, but I can't clearly recall what), we actually do have a probable answer: the Alliance is keeping any secret Reaper knowledge secret because NOT doing so could directly lead to a war with the Council.

Kasumi's DLC, in particular.

[aiDvEoN]

jreezy wrote...

aiDvEoN wrote...

jreezy wrote...
I suggest you look up the definition of genocide before applying the term to what the Geth did to the Quarians.

Systematically wiping out 99.9% of a species meets any definition.

Not exactly.

OK then, enlighten me.  And please don't tell me that it was self-defence (that sort of slaughter means it went well beyond military necessity) or that its only genocide if you finish the job.

[Mightyg]

Replace Geth and Quarians with Israelis and Palestinians. Carry on.

[aiDvEoN]

jreezy wrote...

aiDvEoN wrote...

jreezy wrote...

aiDvEoN wrote...

jreezy wrote...
I suggest you look up the definition of genocide before applying the term to what the Geth did to the Quarians.

Systematically wiping out 99.9% of a species meets any definition.

Not exactly.

OK then, enlighten me.  And please don't tell me that it was self-defence (that sort of slaughter means it went well beyond military necessity) or that its only genocide if you finish the job.

Is there any proof from either side that proves that it wasn't? The Geth never tried to wipe out the Quarians.

Try telling the quarians that, because from where they're sitting, thats what it looks like.  If it was self-defense, then why were infants, civilians, children and the elderly killed too?

The number speak for themselves: they kept killing well past the point of military necessity.

Modifié par aiDvEoN, 20 octobre 2011 - 01:33 .

[Volus Warlord]

The Quarians are weak and frail, and could do not deserve a home to call their own.

[SandTrout]

jreezy wrote...

Is there any proof from either side that proves that it wasn't? The Geth never tried to wipe out the Quarians.

Don't be an ass. No one wipes out 99.9% of a sapient species without trying. (Excluding Lovecraftian Elder Gods)

Modifié par SandTrout, 20 octobre 2011 - 03:33 .

[aiDvEoN]

jreezy wrote...
Misunderstanding? We don't know enough about the Geth's plans to know what they were trying to accomplish but the Quarians definitely wanted to wipe out the Geth. They tried to commt genocide and failed. 

You know, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck, it doesn't matter if you stick a label on it that says its a moose, its still a duck.  99.9% of a species is still dead.

[Thompson family]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

I can't buy that because there is an option to destroy the Heretics and a lot of people who play this game take it.

And what, really, do you destroy then? A space station with platforms. At most, the first geth expeditionary force which has already run its course in the Geth-Council War and was no longer a major force in the first place.

If there was no Geth-Heretic split, destroying the headquarters of a ruined expeditionary force in exchange for being a trusted, or at least accepted, ally would be worth the deal, wouldn't you think?

No. I'm pulling Occam's razor out on this one DtY: The simpler theory that is consistent with the known facts is probably the right one because it makes the fewest assumptions. The idea that the Geth would do all that and destroy a base that's still undiscovered by the enemy and well-defended too, all to impress one organic, is way beyond any reach I'm willing to make.

[Thompson family]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Also, the Heretics wouldn't be helping the Reapers if they knew they would not survive their return. They won't. We now know you can't make a Geth reaper. It requires a huge amount of organic and sapient "material." The Heretics are deceived by their Gods.

Whose to say the Heretics don't know, as opposed to say don't care? Religious fundamentalism does that to people, including the whole 'violate principals of self-preservation' deal.

(Koolaid reference here.)

Everybody who drank that Kool-aid thought he was going to heaven. The Heretics simply would not comply in their own destruction just because it would make the Reapers ascendent. The Heretics were being played. When they contact the the Geth unified memory -- with Legion's uploaded facts on the collector base and the Organic component to the Reapers -- they will, if anything, realize they were suckers.

[Shermos]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Shepard isn't the first organic Geth have had the chance to communicate with. Shepard isn't even the first organic Legion has communicated with. Legion trolls gamers on the extranet all the time, going by the Shadow Broker files.

Yes, but by all indications, Shepard is the first Influential organic the Geth have had a chance to meet and communicate with in the real world. There would be no point in talking to randoms on the extranet. Who would believe them? Hell, most organics still don't believe the Reapers are real after one obliterated a whole bunch of them at the centre of galactic civilisation.

As for being shot at Eden prime, my point is that no matter where the true Geth go, the response is violent. Remember that Shepard has the option not to reactivate him and give him to Cerberus for study. Even approaching him was a risk.

So they just sat around with a stick up their ass when Anderson tried for years to convince people, refused to talk to the others in the Alliance and elsewhere who recognized the threat, and still didn't attempt to make contact for the centuries beforehand?

You're only painting them with a blacker brush than I was. Now the Geth aren't only uncarring isolationists, they refuse to approach anyone but Shepard when galactic survival is at stake.

Again, the violent response to anything Geth makes communication dificult. You seem to think organics in the Mass Effect universe are rational and intelligent. I'm afraid the Geth don't see them that way. Hell if I were them, I wouldn't bother trying to communicate at all and simply hide from the Reapers until the next Galactic purge has ended. Maybe the next lot of space faring organics would be easier to communicate with. The fact that they have gone to so much trouble to communicate at all shows that they do care.

It's interesting how one small part of a game has generated so much discussion and debate. Ultimately though, it's up to the writers how the Geth truly turn out.

Modifié par Shermos, 20 octobre 2011 - 05:36 .