462 réponses à ce sujet

[SandTrout]

Shermos wrote...

Again, the violent response to anything Geth makes communication dificult.

You mean the violent response to an unprovoked invasion and the slaughter of every diplomat sent in the last 300 years?

You seem to think organics in the Mass Effect universe are rational and intelligent. I'm afraid the Geth don't see them that way.

Irrelevant. The Geth would not need to expose themselves to harm of any sort in order to make contact and determine experimentally how organics would react.

Hell if I were them, I wouldn't bother trying to communicate at all and simply hide from the Reapers until the next Galactic purge has ended.

Except that the Reapers allready know that the Geth are out there and will certainly hunt them down before they consider their purge complete.

Maybe the next lot of space faring organics would be easier to communicate with. The fact that they have gone to so much trouble to communicate at all shows that they do care.

They have gone through more trouble to kill our diplomats sent into the Veil than to communicate. All they care about is the fact that they don't think that they can stand up to the Reapers alone.

[atheelogos]

sorentoft wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

General User wrote...

atheelogos wrote...
Why? They haven't done anyting to us.

They've presented themselves as hostile and have demonstrated a dangerous lack of understanding.  In short: the geth are a threat.  Be it at the negotiating table, or on the battlefield, threats need to be neutralized.

I would be more worried that they are making themselves into a true AI. That is a true threat, not some lack of understanding between both sides of the table.

What's wrong with true AI? And why do you assume they will atomatically be hostile? And why don't you consider modern Geth "true AI."?

The problem is not that they will necessarily be hostile as a true AI, it is that they will surpass humanity to such a length that we cannot catch up and will - eventually - become to them like dogs are to humans.

So because they have more potential then we'll ever have we should kill them?

"become to them like dogs are to humans" You can't know that's how the'll see us.

[atheelogos]

General User wrote...

atheelogos wrote...
"They've presented themselves as hostile and have demonstrated a dangerous lack of understanding" From their perspective the same could be said for organics.

Correct to an extent.  Organics lack of understanding of the geth is due to ignorance, not a native lack of ability to comprehend.  The same cannot be said of the geth.

atheelogos wrote...
"Everyone wasn't trying to kill the geth.  Whatever their public stance on AI in general, the Council remained neutral when it came to actual fighting." Not really. If you remember the Council sent a fleet to fight the Geth if they came out of their cluster. I wouldn't call that neutral.

The Council remained neutral when it came to actual fighting.  Meaning the Council did not participate in the Morning War.  Don't confuse Council's stance during the war with the adversarial relationship that developed between it and the geth.

Anacronian Stryx wrote...
Why? - Is the galaxy running out of space or something so everybody has huddle up and be real good neighbors or something?

Being neighborly is never a bad idea no matter how much space you have.  But amount of space, or volume of territory isn't really the issue, at least as far as the geth and the rest of the galaxy are concerned.  it's like they say in the old westerns, "This town ain't big enough for the both of us."

Now, if referring to the geth allowing the quarians to return to Rannoch, then space is very much a concern.  If there is to be peace between the quarians and geth then the two will need separate, mutually defensible borders, they cannot share the same star-system.  Asking two FTL capable civilizations to do so is not sustainable.  All the moreso when there's as much bad blood between the two as there is between the geth and the quarians.  It would be like asking two agricultural societies (who hate each other) to draw water from the same well. 

Anacronian Stryx wrote...
what part of 'just leaving them alone is so unacceptable?

The leaders of every nation (the Alliance, the Hierarchy, the UAR, etc.) have a responsibility to their citizens to protect them from foreign threats, including the geth.

In the three hundred years since the end of the Morning War, the geth and the galactic powers eyed each other warily across the Perseus Veil, each waiting for the day the other would send an army forth.  Then one day, the geth did just that.  The leaders of every power in the galaxy would be deeply remiss in their duties to their own citizens if they left the geth alone and returned to waiting for the next group of geth to get a wild wire in their I/O port and start a new jihad.

At this point, if you're inclined to mention that it was the Heretics not the Orthodox geth who kicked off the Eden Prime War, then you're missing the point.  If the Orthodox Geth wanted to keep the status quo, then they had a responsibility to maintain it against anyone who would threaten it, including the Heretics.  Whatever reasons they may have had for the decisions they made, they either failed in recognizing or they failed in fulfilling that responsibility, and as a consequence, it is no longer acceptable for the rest of the galaxy to leave the geth alone.

The geth now have another choice to make, they can either fight the rest of the galaxy to restore the status quo, or they can engage constructively with the rest of the galaxy.  If Legion is any indication it seems they have chosen the later.

Anacronian Stryx wrote...
Hell when the Yagh killed the council diplomats the council had no problem in isolating the Yagh - so why would isolating the Geth be so unacceptable?

The yahg are monitored and contained, quarantined if you will.  Their isolation was imposed and is maintained by an outside power they could not hope to overcome.  Unless you are advocating a full scale war against the geth where any survivors are herded onto AmericanIndian-style reservations, a comparison to the yahg is inappropriate.

"Correct to an extent.  Organics lack of understanding of the geth is due to ignorance, not a native lack of ability to comprehend.  The same cannot be said of the geth." Are you serious? We also lack the ability to comprehend, and that is not due to ignorance. I mean come on they think and converse at the speed of light. We can never fully understand them.

Modifié par atheelogos, 20 octobre 2011 - 12:35 .

[atheelogos]

Shermos wrote...

Zombiedude101 wrote...

I remember Legion mentioning that the Geth would be willing to co-exist with the "Creators", but every form of contact between them has led to attack from the Quarians.

tl;dr

Quarians need to stop being antagonistic towards the Geth.

This. If I have to sacrifice any races in ME3, the Quarians will be one. The Geth seem pretty bent on peacefully coexisting with organic races. Their reputation comes from being very good at defending themselves. 

Same here. They'd be way more helpful in the war effort too as oppossed to the Quarians who have rusty old ships and Volus weapons...

[atheelogos]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A good number of them thought that unprovoked (emphasis added) galactic genocide was a good idea, and the rest didn't see any reason to stop them or even warn those about to be genocided.

DtY, if this is the geth you're talking about, that's just wrong. Tali clearly tells Shep in ME1 that the Geth revolt didn't start until the Quarians found out the Geth were sapient and tried to shut them all down -- to kill them.

That's hardly unprovoked. Legion doesn't even dispute the Quarian version of events in ME2. As for Geth mercilessness, vids of Legion on Tali's loyalty mission show him saying that Quarians have attacked the Geth every time, 100 percent, they believed they had a chance of winning. Now they're even talking about a desperate last throw at taking back the homeworld even though the odds now are very probably worse than they were at the start of the morning war.

Nothing Legion does is particularly vital or detrimental to the Reapers or the Geth to invalidate suspicions of being a double-agent, and depending on how much the Reapers would like to insert someone into Shepard's inner circle a destroyed Geth station or even the already-doomed Collector Base would be minor costs.

I'm pretty sure that Casey Hudson said in an interview that the Geth would either be with shep or against depending on your choices in ME2.

I don't have the quote or link so feel free to dismiss it if you want.

[General User]

atheelogos wrote...

General User wrote...
Correct to an extent.  Organics lack of understanding of the geth is due to ignorance, not a native lack of ability to comprehend.  The same cannot be said of the geth.

Are you serious? We also lack the ability to comprehend, and that is not due to ignorance. I mean come on they think and converse at the speed of light. We can never fully understand them.

I'm completly serious.  We might not be able to relate directly to how the geth live think and communicate, but  information sharing (electronic or otherwise) and consensus building are concepts well-understandable by any reasonably intelligent adult.

And the key word there is adult.  You see, the geth are like children.  Almost certainly due to the trauma surrounding their awakening to consciousness and subsequent self-imposed isolation they don't understand and cannot sufficiently empathize with those around them (ie organics).  You could say that makes them tragic, and you'd be right, but it also makes them incredibly dangerous.

[Dean_the_Young]

atheelogos wrote...

I'm pretty sure that Casey Hudson said in an interview that the Geth would either be with shep or against depending on your choices in ME2.

I don't have the quote or link so feel free to dismiss it if you want.

That's pretty much old news, considering the obvious paths to it:

A) Do not side with Geth AND do not make peace

 Give Legion to Cerberus/do not do Legion's loyalty mission (ie, do not stop Heretic Virus in time)

C) Heretic Geth remnants left over

[Dean_the_Young]

Thompson family wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

I can't buy that because there is an option to destroy the Heretics and a lot of people who play this game take it.

And what, really, do you destroy then? A space station with platforms. At most, the first geth expeditionary force which has already run its course in the Geth-Council War and was no longer a major force in the first place.

If there was no Geth-Heretic split, destroying the headquarters of a ruined expeditionary force in exchange for being a trusted, or at least accepted, ally would be worth the deal, wouldn't you think?

No. I'm pulling Occam's razor out on this one DtY: The simpler theory that is consistent with the known facts is probably the right one because it makes the fewest assumptions. The idea that the Geth would do all that and destroy a base that's still undiscovered by the enemy and well-defended too, all to impress one organic, is way beyond any reach I'm willing to make.

Sort of how like exposing the Reaper's secret allies in order to assassinate one organic a year before said secret allies are to begin harvesting entire human colonies is an entirely unsensible tipping of the hand?

It's not like the undiscovered Heretic base was all that useful anyway. What were the Heretics capable of in ME2 against the Organics anyway?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 20 octobre 2011 - 01:38 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Shermos wrote...

Yes, but by all indications, Shepard is the first Influential organic the Geth have had a chance to meet and communicate with in the real world.

They've had 300 years, and many shot down ambassadors, of opportunity.

There would be no point in talking to randoms on the extranet. Who would believe them? Hell, most organics still don't believe the Reapers are real after one obliterated a whole bunch of them at the centre of galactic civilisation.

Geth can convince organics to try and buy non-existent solar systems... but you don't think they can start a process of making contact?

Is your imagination of how to build up a chain of connections that weak? The Geth can leave a clearly Geth (non-violent) satelite/data capsule/whatever in a place in space, and then send a message to whoever saying 'hey, there's a geth satelite here, and here's the codes to open it.' The Alliance/Council/whoever could go out, see that the code works by using VI-drones to be safe, and inside find a special phone for direct communication between Geth and Organics. Tadah.

Or, since we know the Alliance does spy inside Geth space, the Geth could find one of those Alliance/Council spy sattelites and then start flashing note cards infront of the lens. Instant one-way communication from Geth to government authorities.

As for being shot at Eden prime, my point is that no matter where the true Geth go, the response is violent. Remember that Shepard has the option not to reactivate him and give him to Cerberus for study. Even approaching him was a risk.

It's violent because every organic to ever make contact with a Geth in over 300 has been murdered. By the Geth.

But the Geth don't have to show up in military force to make contact.

Again, the violent response to anything Geth makes communication dificult.

But easily surmountable. Geth communicate with organics on a semi-regular basis already: organics just don't know they're talking to Geth.

You seem to think organics in the Mass Effect universe are rational and intelligent. I'm afraid the Geth don't see them that way. Hell if I were them, I wouldn't bother trying to communicate at all and simply hide from the Reapers until the next Galactic purge has ended. Maybe the next lot of space faring organics would be easier to communicate with. The fact that they have gone to so much trouble to communicate at all shows that they do care.

The Geth haven't gone through much trouble. The Geth are the reason there is no communication, because they've killed everyone who's ever tried to reach out to them and never made a notable effort of any sort of contact before Legion... who is about the worst emissionary for contact conceivable.

It's interesting how one small part of a game has generated so much discussion and debate. Ultimately though, it's up to the writers how the Geth truly turn out.

True, but entirely irrelevant to what the Geth have been.

[Dean_the_Young]

atheelogos wrote...

Shermos wrote...

Zombiedude101 wrote...

I remember Legion mentioning that the Geth would be willing to co-exist with the "Creators", but every form of contact between them has led to attack from the Quarians.

tl;dr

Quarians need to stop being antagonistic towards the Geth.

This. If I have to sacrifice any races in ME3, the Quarians will be one. The Geth seem pretty bent on peacefully coexisting with organic races. Their reputation comes from being very good at defending themselves. 

Same here. They'd be way more helpful in the war effort too as oppossed to the Quarians who have rusty old ships and Volus weapons...

I'd be curious to hear what you think the four most important weapons of WW2 were.

[sorentoft]

atheelogos wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

General User wrote...

atheelogos wrote...
Why? They haven't done anyting to us.

They've presented themselves as hostile and have demonstrated a dangerous lack of understanding.  In short: the geth are a threat.  Be it at the negotiating table, or on the battlefield, threats need to be neutralized.

I would be more worried that they are making themselves into a true AI. That is a true threat, not some lack of understanding between both sides of the table.

What's wrong with true AI? And why do you assume they will atomatically be hostile? And why don't you consider modern Geth "true AI."?

The problem is not that they will necessarily be hostile as a true AI, it is that they will surpass humanity to such a length that we cannot catch up and will - eventually - become to them like dogs are to humans.

So because they have more potential then we'll ever have we should kill them?

"become to them like dogs are to humans" You can't know that's how the'll see us.

It has nothing to do with how they see us, it would simply be the reality. Their intelligence alone would make that difference. And human potential has not yet been reached. It is simply that the geth would advance to a new level of existence above our own. In time they would with certainty advance beyond our reach and we would be helpless to stop them if they ever decided to wipe us out or make slaves of us. That is why their plan is dangerous to humanity, and that is why it has to be stopped with whatever means necessary. As soon as the Reapers are down that is.

Edit: This could also be why the Geth has not set up regular channels with the rest of the galaxy, perhaps they deemed that the Council would see it as the threat it is and try to exterminate them.Logical in a way if you look aside from the fact that Legion told Shepard of the mega-structure. <_<

Modifié par sorentoft, 20 octobre 2011 - 02:07 .

[aiDvEoN]

atheelogos wrote...

Shermos wrote...

Zombiedude101 wrote...

I remember Legion mentioning that the Geth would be willing to co-exist with the "Creators", but every form of contact between them has led to attack from the Quarians.

tl;dr

Quarians need to stop being antagonistic towards the Geth.

This. If I have to sacrifice any races in ME3, the Quarians will be one. The Geth seem pretty bent on peacefully coexisting with organic races. Their reputation comes from being very good at defending themselves. 

Same here. They'd be way more helpful in the war effort too as oppossed to the Quarians who have rusty old ships and Volus weapons...

Its been discussed over in another thread that to instantly assume all your allies are going to fight on the front line is monstrously short-sighted.  50,000 ships full of experienced zero-g miners, salvage techs and engineers mean that you have the mother of all merchant marine services available there.  And a war of this scale is going to need MASSIVE logistical support.

Look up Nortraship.  I did on a suggestion there.  Its massively enlightening.

[Eire Icon]

My own Shepard dosen't trust the Geth, and he will certainly be looking to exterminate them come ME3

[Someone With Mass]

aiDvEoN wrote...
Its been discussed over in another thread that to instantly assume all your allies are going to fight on the front line is monstrously short-sighted.  50,000 ships full of experienced zero-g miners, salvage techs and engineers mean that you have the mother of all merchant marine services available there.  And a war of this scale is going to need MASSIVE logistical support.

Look up Nortraship.  I did on a suggestion there.  Its massively enlightening.

Attacking the Reapers with any fleet head on will only result in the fleet being turned into a scrapheap, anyway.

[atheelogos]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

Shermos wrote...

Zombiedude101 wrote...

I remember Legion mentioning that the Geth would be willing to co-exist with the "Creators", but every form of contact between them has led to attack from the Quarians.

tl;dr

Quarians need to stop being antagonistic towards the Geth.

This. If I have to sacrifice any races in ME3, the Quarians will be one. The Geth seem pretty bent on peacefully coexisting with organic races. Their reputation comes from being very good at defending themselves. 

Same here. They'd be way more helpful in the war effort too as oppossed to the Quarians who have rusty old ships and Volus weapons...

I'd be curious to hear what you think the four most important weapons of WW2 were.

• Men on the ground
• ships in the sea
• planes in the sky
• and guns/explosives

Modifié par atheelogos, 20 octobre 2011 - 05:05 .

[Dean_the_Young]

You might have said 'mean and war material', or just 'war material', which doesn't answer the obvious question.

What four weapon-systems do you think were the most important in WW2? (A person is not a weapon system.)

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 20 octobre 2011 - 04:16 .

[Arppis]

Finding "whose fault it was" never leads anywhere. Both of the parties need to stop acting like children, kiss and make up.

...our make out! :3

[CptBomBom00]

So I guess another disagreement has been ignited?

[SandTrout]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You might have said 'mean and war material', or just 'war material', which doesn't answer the obvious question.

What four weapon-systems do you think were the most important in WW2? (A person is not a weapon system.)

1) Submarine
2) B-17 'Flying Fortress'
3) M1 Garand
4) M4 Sherman

[aiDvEoN]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You might have said 'mean and war material', or just 'war material', which doesn't answer the obvious question.

What four weapon-systems do you think were the most important in WW2? (A person is not a weapon system.)

I doubt these could be considered weapon systems, but:

Radar
Sonar
Colossus
The US industrial base being able to outproduce the entire AXIS

[SandTrout]

aiDvEoN wrote...

The US industrial base being able to outproduce the entire AXIS

To be completely fair, this was the single most important factor of WW2 without argument, even if it wasn't a 'weapon system' per-se.

Modifié par SandTrout, 20 octobre 2011 - 05:02 .

[atheelogos]

aiDvEoN wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

Shermos wrote...

Zombiedude101 wrote...

I remember Legion mentioning that the Geth would be willing to co-exist with the "Creators", but every form of contact between them has led to attack from the Quarians.

tl;dr

Quarians need to stop being antagonistic towards the Geth.

This. If I have to sacrifice any races in ME3, the Quarians will be one. The Geth seem pretty bent on peacefully coexisting with organic races. Their reputation comes from being very good at defending themselves. 

Same here. They'd be way more helpful in the war effort too as oppossed to the Quarians who have rusty old ships and Volus weapons...

Its been discussed over in another thread that to instantly assume all your allies are going to fight on the front line is monstrously short-sighted.  50,000 ships full of experienced zero-g miners, salvage techs and engineers mean that you have the mother of all merchant marine services available there.  And a war of this scale is going to need MASSIVE logistical support.

Look up Nortraship.  I did on a suggestion there.  Its massively enlightening.

Of course your right. The Quarians would be very helpful. I don't want people to get the wrong idea though. I'm not for picking sides. I want the Quarians and Geth to try and live in peace because come wartime we'll need both of them.

[P38 ace]

OMG guys

did any of you talk to legion at all
Or
Take him to the Flotilla for Taili's LM

Xen, want to control them like machines
Ligions says, the geth want to be independant

QQ wants to find a new world
legions says the geth are open to peace and would be willing to live in peace with the Quarians on the home-world given a good will effort by the Quarians

but as legion continues he says,  the Quarains have attack the geth 100% of the time if odds where favorable

and Gerrel is the tipical view of what everyone and the Geth view the Quarians as the "kill all geth no matter what they think or act like.

It's not that hard to see peace is possible and sooo close the Quarians just have to reach out and take it


I am on side of Quarian-Geth peace,
its not that hard, but the Qarians are just too thick headed to see it or even want to talk to the the Geth

it makes me angery

[aiDvEoN]

P38 ace wrote...

OMG guys

did any of you talk to legion at all
Or
Take him to the Flotilla for Taili's LM

Xen, want to control them like machines
Ligions says, the geth want to be independant

QQ wants to find a new world
legions says the geth are open to peace and would be willing to live in peace with the Quarians on the home-world given a good will effort by the Quarians

but as legion continues he says,  the Quarains have attack the geth 100% of the time if odds where favorable

and Gerrel is the tipical view of what everyone and the Geth view the Quarians as the "kill all geth no matter what they think or act like.

It's not that hard to see peace is possible and sooo close the Quarians just have to reach out and take it


I am on side of Quarian-Geth peace,
its not that hard, but the Qarians are just too thick headed to see it or even want to talk to the the Geth

it makes me angery

re: the bolded part.
THAT'S
WHAT
YOU
DO
WHEN
YOU
FIGHT
A
WAR

Why is this so hard for people to understand?  And until that moment, the Quarians have never had any reason to think that the war would not resume the second they set foot on the other side of the veil.

[Someone With Mass]

I don't think any race would resort to peace talking with the enemy that wiped out 99% of their race and forced the survivors into an exodus upon contact either.

It'd be like if the turians tried to use diplomacy against the Reapers right after they demolished Pavalen and forced the turians to evacuate to a nearby moon.