462 réponses à ce sujet

[capn233]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Fun fact of history:

General Eisenhower credited the Bazooka, the Atom Bomb, the Jeep, and the Gooney Bird (C-47 Skytrain) as the four tools of victory that won the second world war.

One was only used twice, after the war itself was determined. Only one is a weapon in and of itself. The other two are transports.

Not that it matters, but I would have replaced the atom bomb with the aircraft carrier on his list.  But I wasn't around back then.

Modifié par capn233, 21 octobre 2011 - 10:09 .

[DarthSliver]

Theres is an old saying "Dont bite the hand that feeds you" in a way that essentially what happen with the Quarians trying to shutdown the Geth because the Quarians relied on the Geth too much.

[General User]

Saphra Deden wrote...

General User wrote...

I don't know.  The thing for me is that the quarian geth conflict is so one-sided that, unless Daro'Xen's weapon succeeds, the quarians don't have a prayer of winning.

How do you arrive at this conclusion exactly?

The nature of the Migrant Fleet is such that a protracted, large-scale war isn't really possible.  And the nature of the geth empire is such that a decisive first strike is all but impossible.

I think it was Adm. Han'Gerrel who said something along the lines that the quarians would need a planet to shelter their non-combatants in any war with the Reapers. Well, the same could be said of any war.  Since their threshold of acceptable loss is relatively low and their ability to replace losses is rather limited, if the quarians are to win any armed conflict they must strike decisively in the very opening engagements. 

Against some potential enemies that might not be such a problem, but the nature of the geth empire, being largely hidden behind the Perseus Veil, is such that even knowing where to strike is a herculean task.  And that's assuming it's even possible in the first place.  It's just as, if not more, likely that the geth have simply grown too powerful for the combat elements of the Migrant Fleet to take out in the very opening engagements.  Or, failing that, that the geth have grown so large that any victories the quarians did have would only be on borrowed time.  Or both.

Actually, given that the geth have had an adversarial relationship with the entire galaxy for the past 300 years, it is far more logical to believe that the geth have based their defense projections on the idea that they may have to fight the entire organic galaxy.  With that in mind, the idea that the geth are simple too big/well-prepared for the Mirgant Fleet to take is by far the most likely.

But, even if it were neither, even if the geth empire could be successfully reconnointered, and even if the geth's current combat power could be determined to be more or less within the grasp of the Migrant Fleet's I would still be pessimistic about the chances of success.  You see, the geth are not some Terminus pirate gang, they are a major power in the galaxy.  Any war with the geth is going to be a major war, no matter what anyone says.

Modifié par General User, 21 octobre 2011 - 10:43 .

[Arkitekt]

The heretics were taken down with a stealth frigate that has technology the quarians don't have.

[Arkitekt]

As if you had any clue about it. Ah. I could say the exact opposite with the exact same confidence. And I would have been just as silly.

[General User]

Saphra Deden wrote...
How do you know the war will be long one[?]

I don't.  I just refuse to believe that it will be a short one.

Saphra Deden wrote...
[W]hat makes you think the geth aren't vulnerable?

I'm sure they are.  It's just that the size of geth territory and the astrographic nature of the Perseus Veil makes me highly dubious that those vulnerabilities can be succesfully scouted out.

Saphra Deden wrote...
The quarians having all of their forces concentrated in their fleet can be an asset.

It's also a liability since it limits their capacity to replace losses.

Saphra Deden wrote...
Another thing is that the geth have a lot of their resources tied up building that dyson sphere... which is thus a perfect target for the quarians. Especially if it is actually made functional as then all the geth can be wiped out in a single blow. Even if not, attacking the resources nodes being used to build it and the structure itself will deprive the geth of much of their logistic capability. They need to build ships and harvest fuel just like anyone else.

Depending on how many and how well-protected those nodes there are, it might not be possible to locate, let alone destroy, even a portion of them.

Saphra Deden wrote...
In the end there is simply a lot we don't know so this is all just speculation. However I'm going to assume that if the Admirals are even considering war then they've already got a reason to believe a war is winnable.

I'm just as inclined to chalk up their motivations to desperation and old fashioned foolishness myself.

[General User]

Arkitekt wrote...

The heretics were taken down with a stealth frigate that has technology the quarians don't have.

Heretic Station was taken down by a commando team and a stealth frigate.

The Heretics themselves were taken down by a comprehensive, wide-ranging, Alliance-lead military campaign that started in ME1 and continued for better than 2 years until the middle of ME2.

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Well I'm not a fan of ****ty or cliche story-telling so I'd like to believe that responsible people with a position that entails great responsibility would behave responsibly.

Because our leaders always do the responsible thing in real life after all.

/sarcasm

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

The heretics were taken down with a stealth frigate that has technology the quarians don't have.

The stealth frigate wasn't necessary. If destruction of the space station was our goal there are any number of ways we could have gone about it.

Sure. If you feel like fighting off fleets of geth while you're doing it.

[Arkitekt]

General User wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

The heretics were taken down with a stealth frigate that has technology the quarians don't have.

Heretic Station was taken down by a commando team and a stealth frigate.

The Heretics themselves were taken down by a comprehensive, wide-ranging, Alliance-lead military campaign that started in ME1 and continued for better than 2 years until the middle of ME2.

I stand corrected. Of course you are right.

[General User]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Even if they can't be what makes you think the geth have unsurmountable forces in the first place? If the geth were so strong why did they have to rely on Legion and Shepard to take out the Heretics? There should have been no threat.

Legion was meant to contact Shepard to form an alliance agains the Reapers themselves, not their Heretic lackeys.

And, like I said, I believe the Orthodox geth most likely have a military well-beyond the Mirgant Fleet's ability to take on alone based on the fact that the geth have existed in an adversarial relationship with the entire galaxy for the past 300 years, thus their war making capacity should logically be built around the possibility that they may one day have to fight the rest of the galaxy, not just/including the Migrant Fleet.

Saphra Deden wrote...
Well I'm not a fan of ****ty or cliche story-telling so I'd like to believe that responsible people with a position that entails great responsibility would behave responsibly.

What would be cliche story-telling about that?

Modifié par General User, 21 octobre 2011 - 11:30 .

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Sure. If you feel like fighting off fleets of geth while you're doing it.

What fleets and where are they coming from? If they know about the location of the Heretic base the Migrant Fleet could easily divert an attack force there and disable it. The only reason Shepard didn't try to raise a fleet was the time limit implied by the heretic virus.

Considering the base's proximity to the Perseus Veil and that it's housing a major population of geth programs, I wouldn't be surprised if they'd call for backup the second they see any foreign ship approaching, and then their ships that are behind or near the Perseus Veil would arrive within minutes. 

Probably one of the reasons why Legion said that the stealth system would be needed.

[General User]

Saphra Deden wrote...
So why hadn't the orthodox geth done anything to thwart the Heretics?

Could be anything from they thought he Reapers would intervene to they did not want to kill other geth at the time (it was their very first major disagreement after all), or a thousand and one other things.  Legion's stated mission is to seek out Shepard to form an Alliance against the Reapers. 

Saphra Deden wrote...
The batarians have had a similar relationship with the galaxy for a long time (not as long, to be fair). Where is their massive fleet?

I've read your posts.  I know you're smart enough to see the enormous differences between the Batarian Hegemony's and the Geth Collective's individual relationship's to the rest of the galaxy apart from the fact that they fall under the broad category of "adversarial."

Besides that's not even strictly true.  However strong the Hegemony may or may not have ultimately been, they were always sufficiently strong to deter the Council races from simply stepping in and squashing them at any given point in time for their provocations. 

Saphra Deden wrote...
I don't think what you are suggesting is practical. Building a "dyson sphere" (or something close to one) is a massive undertaking. You comebine that with the resources needed to clean up an entire planet and you aren't left with much left over to do anything else.  I don't think the geth military is as formidable as everyone thinks it is.

Were I a quarian admiral, I wouldn't bet money on that, let alone lives.

[howl3d]

they just don't trust organicks to not betray them at this piont, legion confirmes this

[General User]

Don't get me twisted, I'm not suggesting that the geth have some sort of galaxy conquering super-armada hidden behind the Perseus Veil. Rather what I'm suggesting is that a war against the combined forces of the galaxy has always been a very real possibility for the geth, and they would be fools if they did not recognize and prepare for just such a case.

And we would be fools if we assumed them to be fools.

Modifié par General User, 22 octobre 2011 - 12:09 .

[howl3d]

a handful of them (the heretics) did manage to do quit a bit of damage.