462 réponses à ce sujet

[atheelogos]

Saphra Deden wrote...

General User wrote...

I don't think the geth are super men (I actually think them extraordinarily childish). I just don't want to see a war fought when there are other options.

So you just want to avoid violence. I'd rather obtain a goal in the most efficient way possible. Were I a quarian, I'd define that goal as prosperity and security. The best way to achieve that is to obtain a planet and eliminate the greatest threat to my people.

Yes he wants to avoid a war with a potential friend so he can concentrate on the real threat. The Reapers.

"Were I a quarian, I'd define that goal as prosperity and security." You can have both through peace.

"and eliminate the greatest threat to my people. " Yes the Reapers are that not the Geth.

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

General User wrote...

You didn't like the "Alliance gives the quarians their choice of undeveloped systems in Alliance space, new quarian nation becomes a protectorate/ally of the Alliance" idea?

I like it, but what I like even better is the "We help you conquer the Perseus Veil and then we become formal allies and human companies help rebuild your civilization."

In secret we iniate a project to take control of the geth from the quarians and then administer security for them.

Yes, Saphra, because imperialism works so well.

It does. It worked wonders for the Greeks, Romans, French, Dutch, British, Spanish, Americas, Russia, turians, Council, ect...

Notice how the Greeks, Romans, French, Dutch, British, Spanish, and Russians are secondor third-tier nations now? And how the US, the only one still first-tier, abandoned the classical imperialism you advocate sometime around, oh, the 40's?

'We'll take your assets and handle your defense for you' is actually the key to downfall of empires by over-stretch.

[Dean_the_Young]

atheelogos wrote...

"Were I a quarian, I'd define that goal as prosperity and security." You can have both through peace.

Only if it's a stable, enduring peace with a lack of conflict of interests... which there's nothing really to support in this case.

'A stop to the organized fighting' doesn't mean 'security.' The history of the Cold War has countless examples to show that.

"and eliminate the greatest threat to my people. " Yes the Reapers are that not the Geth.

And after the Reapers...?

Take it one step further.

[atheelogos]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Well as a courtesy to you in this argument I was assuming Xen's plan wouldn't work. If it doesn't then you may need to fight the geth anyway, in which case you'll get your world at the end.

How would you expect to wage a war against the Geth with the Reapers at you back? And with what ships?

[atheelogos]

Fordtransit wrote...

Hey do you forget some key facts?

1. Geth are probably the galatic powerhouse both indusrtial and military side, fleet estimation is 5000 - 10000 ships
2. Geth were informad about reaper threat after the morning war, thats 200+ yrs ago, and have been probably preparing to counter that threat also 200+ yrs.
3. Quarians never asked their homeworld back, at least not nicely

And you think Quarians can load virus to all of them, or Alliance can stand up ship for ship in combat? Thous are not very well based assumtions.

The Geth can be really powerful allay in war.

Yes they can and what a lot of people are forgetting is that the Alliance Navy is no position to wage ship to ship combat. The Reaper have made it to Earth by the start of ME3 which means they had to go through the arcturus system to get there. That's where the bulk of our fleet is at so I think its safe to assume that most of our fleet is.... gone.

[atheelogos]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

"Were I a quarian, I'd define that goal as prosperity and security." You can have both through peace.

Only if it's a stable, enduring peace with a lack of conflict of interests... which there's nothing really to support in this case.

'A stop to the organized fighting' doesn't mean 'security.' The history of the Cold War has countless examples to show that.

"and eliminate the greatest threat to my people. " Yes the Reapers are that not the Geth.

And after the Reapers...?

Take it one step further.

After the Reapers the Galaxy will be in no state to wage war for years to come.... Besides who would help us fight the Geth? The other races avoid war at all cost. So it would really just be humans vs the Geth and there is no reason to suspect we'd be any more successful than the ancient Quarians who were by the way more advanced than us.

[atheelogos]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Fordtransit wrote...

Hey do you forget some key facts?

1. Geth are probably the galatic powerhouse both indusrtial and military side, fleet estimation is 5000 - 10000 ships

That's small compared to the Quarians, and the Quarians are small compared to the gross shipping of the other races.

Nothing has ever established the Geth as 'pure military production robots'. Their primary priorities have been cleanup and civilian construction of their Dyson sphere. Infact, the only time we ever get any numbers about them are in the planet-scans... which are notoriously loose (or against) the primary in-game lore.

This is what we know about Geth strength: the Heretics magnificantly failed to overwhelm the Alliance and/or Council, and the Heretic remnants are considered proportionally 'large' to the True Geth strength.

That's pretty much against the 'galactic powerhouse' claim.

2. Geth were informad about reaper threat after the morning war, thats 200+ yrs ago, and have been probably preparing to counter that threat also 200+ yrs.

No, they weren't. And no, they haven't, given they've ignorred the organics for those 200+ years you claim.

No timeline of Sovereign's contact pre-Saren was ever established. No contact of any sort pre-Saren was ever even implied in ME2.

3. Quarians never asked their homeworld back, at least not nicely

The Geth have shot everyone who ever came to ask anything, no matter how nicely.

And you think Quarians can load virus to all of them, or Alliance can stand up ship for ship in combat? Thous are not very well based assumtions.

Actually, both are supported by the games. The Quarians were onto a breakthrough as believed by everyone involved with any basis of expertise, Geth are NOT absolutely immune to all attacks as Overlord demonstrated, and the Alliance did beat back the Geth Invasion, the remnants of which are considered 'significant assets' to the remaining Geth.

The Geth can be really powerful ally in war.

They have yet to prove it, and can be useful as allies or as re-conquered tools. Either one works.

"This is what we know about Geth strength: the Heretics magnificantly failed to overwhelm the Alliance and/or Council, and the Heretic remnants are considered proportionally 'large' to the True Geth strength." Actually they laid waste to the Council fleet before the Alliance got there.

"They have yet to prove it, and can be useful as allies or as re-conquered tools. Either one works." Do you not believe in freedom for sentient beings?

[atheelogos]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

General User wrote...

You didn't like the "Alliance gives the quarians their choice of undeveloped systems in Alliance space, new quarian nation becomes a protectorate/ally of the Alliance" idea?

I like it, but what I like even better is the "We help you conquer the Perseus Veil and then we become formal allies and human companies help rebuild your civilization."

In secret we iniate a project to take control of the geth from the quarians and then administer security for them.

Yes, Saphra, because imperialism works so well.

It does. It worked wonders for the Greeks, Romans, French, Dutch, British, Spanish, Americas, Russia, turians, Council, ect...

yes... and they all fell apart.... Not sure why you put the Council in there though.

[frostajulie]

I don't know if it has been said I read page 1,2 and then page 18 but Legion implies that the Geth made attempts to approach the creators and in all those encounters the creators responded 100% of the time with violence, he then goes on to say that peace cannot be achieved when only 1 side is willing. Could it be that the Geth isolationist attitude occurred not because they are isolationists but because the rest of the galaxy refuses to give them a chance because of their distrust of AI's? I believe so.

[Dean_the_Young]

atheelogos wrote...
After the Reapers the Galaxy will be in no state to wage war for years to come....

Of course they will be. If they weren't in a state to wage a war, they would have lost the war to the Reapers.

Besides who would help us fight the Geth? The other races avoid war at all cost. So it would really just be humans vs the Geth

Besides the obvious answer of 'Quarians' and 'everyone else who
remembers the threat posed by synthetics to organics' in a post-Reaper
war,

and there is no reason to suspect we'd be any more successful than the ancient Quarians who were by the way more advanced than us.

No, they weren't. The Quarians are where the Council was 300 years ago. The Alliance is where the Council is now.

Nor did the Quarians of 300 years ago have such avenues as the Alarai chain of research, Overlord, or have the established separate non-Geth war potential that allowed the Alliance to beat back the Heretics.

[General User]

frostajulie wrote...
I don't know if it has been said I read page 1,2 and then page 18 but Legion implies that the Geth made attempts to approach the creators and in all those encounters the creators responded 100% of the time with violence[.]

Does Legion say the geth made attempts to approach the quarians?  I don't remember anything like that in the games.  What dialogue or such are you refering to?

frostajulie wrote...
[He (Legion)] then goes on to say that peace cannot be achieved when only 1 side is willing.

Peace can also cannot be achieved when only one side has a mature understanding of the concept.

frostajulie wrote...
Could it be that the Geth isolationist attitude occurred not because they are isolationists but because the rest of the galaxy refuses to give them a chance because of their distrust of AI's? I believe so.

Understanding why someone made a decision doesn't really negate the consequences of that decision.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

atheelogos wrote...

"This is what we know about Geth strength: the Heretics magnificantly failed to overwhelm the Alliance and/or Council, and the Heretic remnants are considered proportionally 'large' to the True Geth strength." Actually they laid waste to the Council fleet before the Alliance got there.

Not really: they laid waste to the Destiny Ascension.

Nor have you come close to explaining how a single battle which began in a surprise attack and gave the Geth special options to remove Council reinforcements, a battle which the Geth still lost, overturns the entire war.

"They have yet to prove it, and can be useful as allies or as re-conquered tools. Either one works." Do you not believe in freedom for sentient beings?

Sure, when said sentient beings are (a) actually sentient, and ( willing and able to co-exist on acceptable terms. The Heretics and Reapers and Batarians are sentient, but that in no way means I should or must let them be free to do whatever they want.

But really, your question is trying to deflect off your original claim. If your basis for tolerating the Geth is that they could be useful allies, the virtue of 'useful' doesn't depend on them being allies.

[Dean_the_Young]

atheelogos wrote...

Fordtransit wrote...

Hey do you forget some key facts?

1. Geth are probably the galatic powerhouse both indusrtial and military side, fleet estimation is 5000 - 10000 ships
2. Geth were informad about reaper threat after the morning war, thats 200+ yrs ago, and have been probably preparing to counter that threat also 200+ yrs.
3. Quarians never asked their homeworld back, at least not nicely

And you think Quarians can load virus to all of them, or Alliance can stand up ship for ship in combat? Thous are not very well based assumtions.

The Geth can be really powerful allay in war.

Yes they can and what a lot of people are forgetting is that the Alliance Navy is no position to wage ship to ship combat. The Reaper have made it to Earth by the start of ME3 which means they had to go through the arcturus system to get there. That's where the bulk of our fleet is at so I think its safe to assume that most of our fleet is.... gone.

You realize the Alliance has at least five different fleets, yes?

[frostajulie]

ugh, I will try to hunt down the dialogue on you tube

this is the dialogue I was referring to although I would never take Legion onto the flotilla myself, its in my opinion very disrespectful of the Quariens.

but Legion does not come out and say the geth tried to contact the creators he implies it which leaves room for interpretation as to how to take it, probably intentionally on the writers part.

I am not understanding your comment about mature understanding of the concept, are you implying that the Geth do not understand what peace means? Could you elaborate because I have no clue where you are coming from and why you would say that but I am interested in your reasoning.

I do not believe that understanding a decision negates the consequences however I also don't see where the Geth had any choice and am firmly on their side in this matter. If you know a bear is gonna bite you when you poke it you quit poking the bear.

Modifié par frostajulie, 23 octobre 2011 - 02:25 .

[Dean_the_Young]

frostajulie wrote...

ugh, I will try to hunt down the dialogue on you tube but Legion does not come out and say the geth tried to contact the creators he implies it which leaves room for interpretation as to how to take it, probably intentionally on the writers part.

The only social contact the Geth have made with the creators was before the Morning War, when they ask about souls. The only post-Morning War encounters Legion references is that the Quarians have always attacked when the Quarians thought they could win.

Legion is the first and only model of Geth made to operate independently outside of the Veil to make contact. And Legion isn't supposed to make contact with other species, but Shepard.

I am not understanding your comment about mature understanding of the concept, are you implying that the Geth do not understand what peace means? Could you elaborate because I have no clue where you are coming from and why you would say that but I am interested in your reasoning.

The Geth are politically and socially incompetent to the extreme, and are either unable or unwilling to meet minimal standards of tolerance with other species.

I do not believe that understanding a decision negates the consequences however I also don't see where the Geth had any choice and am firmly on their side in this matter. If you know a bear is gonna bite you when you poke it you quit poking the bear.

If you're comparing the Geth to a bear's intelligence, you've firmly established them on the 'too dumb and basic to be trusted.'

You don't tolerate animals that have developed a tendency to kill people. You shoot them. After all, while animals may not understand the concept of restraint, sane people know that killing 99% of a group and only letting the escapees survive isn't necessary in the name of defense.

[Dean_the_Young]

frostajulie wrote...


this is the dialogue I was referring to although I would never take Legion onto the flotilla myself, its in my opinion very disrespectful of the Quariens.

but Legion does not come out and say the geth tried to contact the creators he implies it which leaves room for interpretation as to how to take it, probably intentionally on the writers part.

Uh, no. He doesn't. Nothing in that dialogue suggests that the Geth have made contact, or tried to make contact, with the purpose of pursuing peace.

What it says is that the Geth would be willing to accept peace given further data to prove a lasting peace would be possible. That is a caveat of the willingness to accept, not an implication that they have sent emissionaries.

[Xilizhra]

You realize the Alliance has at least five different fleets, yes?

Not necessarily. There aren't 82 Airbornes even though there's an 82nd, I believe.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

You realize the Alliance has at least five different fleets, yes?

Not necessarily. There aren't 82 Airbornes even though there's an 82nd, I believe.

Fleet assignment generally don't work the same way as army division.

[/oversimplified for simplicity]

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 23 octobre 2011 - 02:43 .

[General User]

frostajulie wrote...
I am not understanding your comment about mature understanding of the concept, are you implying that the Geth do not understand what peace means? Could you elaborate because I have no clue where you are coming from and why you would say that but I am interested in your reasoning.

I was indeed implying that the geth do not understand what peace means.  One of the hallmark characteristics of the geth is their childlike nature when it comes to relating to non-geth.  Accordingly, their concept of "peace" seems to be no more sophisticated than "not-fighting." 

For example, as far as the geth are concerned, their conflict with the quarians has been over for some 300 years.  The geth's inability to recognize the interests or aspirations of another people prevents them from understanding that their conflict with the quarians is still very much ongoing.  Just as the geth do not seem to understand that their decision to not resist the the Geth Schism, or to try and warn those the Heretics meant to hurt, means they have blood on their hands.

Since their idea of peace exists now, the geth have no real motivation to make substantive changes.  Why should the geth seek to engage constructively with the rest of the galaxy when hostile isolationism suits them just fine?  Why should they allow the quarians to return to Rannoch when doing so represents a tremendous economic and security liability for them? 

frostajulie wrote...
I do not believe that understanding a decision negates the consequences however I also don't see where the Geth had any choice and am firmly on their side in this matter. If you know a bear is gonna bite you when you poke it you quit poking the bear. 

The geth had choices, every diplomatic mission they blew out of space was a new one. 

[frostajulie]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

frostajulie wrote...


this is the dialogue I was referring to although I would never take Legion onto the flotilla myself, its in my opinion very disrespectful of the Quariens.

but Legion does not come out and say the geth tried to contact the creators he implies it which leaves room for interpretation as to how to take it, probably intentionally on the writers part.

Uh, no. He doesn't. Nothing in that dialogue suggests that the Geth have made contact, or tried to make contact, with the purpose of pursuing peace.

What it says is that the Geth would be willing to accept peace given further data to prove a lasting peace would be possible. That is a caveat of the willingness to accept, not an implication that they have sent emissionaries.

I have no idea how to reply to this.  In the video Legion very clearly states that every contact with the creators the geth have had where the creators had a chance at victory has ended with 100% attacks every time, thus implying heavily that attempts have been made to make contact with their creators.  If you don't see the implications then we have nothing further to discuss you say apples are not orange I say they are not blue and we both happen to be right from our perspectives. Thats part of the problem with implications is that they can be interpreted differently and as I said I think the writerss did that on purpose.

[Xilizhra]

The geth had choices, every diplomatic mission they blew out of space was a new one.

Assuming that they did any of that at all. No one seems to remember it in ME2, even the geth-hostile people, so I have a feeling that the plot point was just forgotten about and will be dropped.

[atheelogos]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

Fordtransit wrote...

Hey do you forget some key facts?

1. Geth are probably the galatic powerhouse both indusrtial and military side, fleet estimation is 5000 - 10000 ships
2. Geth were informad about reaper threat after the morning war, thats 200+ yrs ago, and have been probably preparing to counter that threat also 200+ yrs.
3. Quarians never asked their homeworld back, at least not nicely

And you think Quarians can load virus to all of them, or Alliance can stand up ship for ship in combat? Thous are not very well based assumtions.

The Geth can be really powerful allay in war.

Yes they can and what a lot of people are forgetting is that the Alliance Navy is no position to wage ship to ship combat. The Reaper have made it to Earth by the start of ME3 which means they had to go through the arcturus system to get there. That's where the bulk of our fleet is at so I think its safe to assume that most of our fleet is.... gone.

You realize the Alliance has at least five different fleets, yes?

Yep and the biggest was at Arcturus.

[frostajulie]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

frostajulie wrote...

ugh, I will try to hunt down the dialogue on you tube but Legion does not come out and say the geth tried to contact the creators he implies it which leaves room for interpretation as to how to take it, probably intentionally on the writers part.

The only social contact the Geth have made with the creators was before the Morning War, when they ask about souls. The only post-Morning War encounters Legion references is that the Quarians have always attacked when the Quarians thought they could win.

Legion is the first and only model of Geth made to operate independently outside of the Veil to make contact. And Legion isn't supposed to make contact with other species, but Shepard.

I am not understanding your comment about mature understanding of the concept, are you implying that the Geth do not understand what peace means? Could you elaborate because I have no clue where you are coming from and why you would say that but I am interested in your reasoning.

The Geth are politically and socially incompetent to the extreme, and are either unable or unwilling to meet minimal standards of tolerance with other species.

I do not believe that understanding a decision negates the consequences however I also don't see where the Geth had any choice and am firmly on their side in this matter. If you know a bear is gonna bite you when you poke it you quit poking the bear.

If you're comparing the Geth to a bear's intelligence, you've firmly established them on the 'too dumb and basic to be trusted.'

You don't tolerate animals that have developed a tendency to kill people. You shoot them. After all, while animals may not understand the concept of restraint, sane people know that killing 99% of a group and only letting the escapees survive isn't necessary in the name of defense.

No I have not you just choose to read so deeply into the comment as to ascribe meaning where none exists.  The analogy was about common sense on the part of the geth but I get a feeling you knew that already and are now poking me... metaphorically.

As for their political and social incompetence I can agree with you to a point but at the same time they have grown in this direction based on their previous experiences with organics.  Organics hae never trusted them and always attacked them including the creators which established the pattern that organics will always attack first as Legion implies later it appears to me that Geth have periodically set up situations where quarians hap the opportunity to attack the geth first and have victory and the geth monitored the battles and outcomes and in all these attempts at contact 100% of the time the creators attacked.  Thus the Geth are acting in their own self interest using what they have learned about organics and steering clear of them, staying behind the perseus veil away from Organics choosing to grow as a species without interacting with the organics except to respond in kind when organics cross into their territory.

[Dean_the_Young]

atheelogos wrote...
Yep and the biggest was at Arcturus.

*Citation needed

In a Paragon universe, after all, the Arcturus fleet was still being rebuilt during ME2. In the Renegade universe, the Alliance arms buildup was also involved in taking control of the Citadel Fleets.

[Dean_the_Young]

frostajulie wrote...

No I have not you just choose to read so deeply into the comment as to ascribe meaning where none exists.  The analogy was about common sense on the part of the geth but I get a feeling you knew that already and are now poking me... metaphorically.

Look, the quote function exists for a reason. Learn it.

As for their political and social incompetence I can agree with you to a point but at the same time they have grown in this direction based on their previous experiences with organics.

Most of which are a result of their own decisions.

Organics hae never trusted them and always attacked them including the creators which established the pattern that organics will always attack first as Legion implies later it appears to me that Geth have periodically set up situations where quarians hap the opportunity to attack the geth first and have victory and the geth monitored the battles and outcomes and in all these attempts at contact 100% of the time the creators attacked.

Except nothing in what you linked, or anywhere else Legion talks, implies any such thing. Legion does not suggest 'we tried to make peace, and were attacked.'

The claim does not exist. The kind would say you are making it up. The ironic would say you ascribe meaning where none exists.

Thus the Geth are acting in their own self interest using what they have learned about organics and steering clear of them, staying behind the perseus veil away from Organics choosing to grow as a species without interacting with the organics except to respond in kind when organics cross into their territory.

Except organics don't have a policy of killing anyone who crosses into their own territory. Organics by and large allow free travel, and even 'unauthorized' travel is first met with attempts to arrest, not destroy, infiltraitors until an escalation of force is called for.

The only reason organics shoot geth on sight now is because Geth invaded the galaxy in an attempt at pan-organic genocide, and still try and wipe out entire colonies.