462 réponses à ce sujet

[frostajulie]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

frostajulie wrote...

No I have not you just choose to read so deeply into the comment as to ascribe meaning where none exists.  The analogy was about common sense on the part of the geth but I get a feeling you knew that already and are now poking me... metaphorically.

Look, the quote function exists for a reason. Learn it.

As for their political and social incompetence I can agree with you to a point but at the same time they have grown in this direction based on their previous experiences with organics.

Most of which are a result of their own decisions.

Organics hae never trusted them and always attacked them including the creators which established the pattern that organics will always attack first as Legion implies later it appears to me that Geth have periodically set up situations where quarians hap the opportunity to attack the geth first and have victory and the geth monitored the battles and outcomes and in all these attempts at contact 100% of the time the creators attacked.

Except nothing in what you linked, or anywhere else Legion talks, implies any such thing. Legion does not suggest 'we tried to make peace, and were attacked.'

The claim does not exist. The kind would say you are making it up. The ironic would say you ascribe meaning where none exists.

Thus the Geth are acting in their own self interest using what they have learned about organics and steering clear of them, staying behind the perseus veil away from Organics choosing to grow as a species without interacting with the organics except to respond in kind when organics cross into their territory.

Except organics don't have a policy of killing anyone who crosses into their own territory. Organics by and large allow free travel, and even 'unauthorized' travel is first met with attempts to arrest, not destroy, infiltraitors until an escalation of force is called for.

The only reason organics shoot geth on sight now is because Geth invaded the galaxy in an attempt at pan-organic genocide, and still try and wipe out entire colonies.

1. Quote function: this is a forum for conversation and if I want to be lazy you can't make me be otherwise.
2. The kind and ironic can say what they want I put the video link in that supports my points if you want to ignore it because you don't like whats in it I don't care but you can shout the sky ain't blue all you want but the proof is in the looking.  Look at the video and the claim does exist.  Look at the sky and it is blue.  Same thing.  You quite obviously have a bias and agenda in this argument that makes you close your eyes to evidence that is presented to you and cannot be pursueded otherwise.  You willingly misinterpret things for no reson other than to try and make your argument more valid and when called on it are fine with changing the subject and attacking the style of the message rather than the substance.  I have willingly listend to your argument and considered your evidence with respect and tried to see what you are saying from your perspective.  I disagree with much of what you have said for reasons I have already stated and backed up with evidence from the games dialogue.  I am sorry you feel the need to get your point across in such an antagonistic fashion.

I can understand why some of what you argue is valid but some of what you say is utter nonsense and the rest just rude snipings at a poster who disagrees with your opinion.

[atheelogos]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

atheelogos wrote...
Yep and the biggest was at Arcturus.

*Citation needed

In a Paragon universe, after all, the Arcturus fleet was still being rebuilt during ME2. In the Renegade universe, the Alliance arms buildup was also involved in taking control of the Citadel Fleets.

Yes I know I said that without a source. I'm just assuming that you'd put most of your resources around  that which you want to protect most. Makes sense to me.

[Dean_the_Young]

atheelogos wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

atheelogos wrote...
Yep and the biggest was at Arcturus.

*Citation needed

In a Paragon universe, after all, the Arcturus fleet was still being rebuilt during ME2. In the Renegade universe, the Alliance arms buildup was also involved in taking control of the Citadel Fleets.

Yes I know I said that without a source. I'm just assuming that you'd put most of your resources around  that which you want to protect most. Makes sense to me.

Really? I'd think you'd want to put your resources where they'd do the most good. No nation except the smallest keep most of their forces at the capital region: they keep them at the border, and at other strategic points.

That is, after all, why the Acturus fleet is at Acturus, beyond the Charon relay: because it's a choke point.

[atheelogos]

double post sry bought that

Modifié par atheelogos, 23 octobre 2011 - 03:50 .

[atheelogos]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

"This is what we know about Geth strength: the Heretics magnificantly failed to overwhelm the Alliance and/or Council, and the Heretic remnants are considered proportionally 'large' to the True Geth strength." Actually they laid waste to the Council fleet before the Alliance got there.

Not really: they laid waste to the Destiny Ascension.

Nor have you come close to explaining how a single battle which began in a surprise attack and gave the Geth special options to remove Council reinforcements, a battle which the Geth still lost, overturns the entire war.

"They have yet to prove it, and can be useful as allies or as re-conquered tools. Either one works." Do you not believe in freedom for sentient beings?

Sure, when said sentient beings are (a) actually sentient, and ( willing and able to co-exist on acceptable terms. The Heretics and Reapers and Batarians are sentient, but that in no way means I should or must let them be free to do whatever they want.

But really, your question is trying to deflect off your original claim. If your basis for tolerating the Geth is that they could be useful allies, the virtue of 'useful' doesn't depend on them being allies.

"(a) actually sentient, and ( willing and able to co-exist on acceptable terms. The Heretics and Reapers and Batarians are sentient, but that in no way means I should or must let them be free to do whatever they want." A- Well I think they are. That's subjective, but its how I see it.

The more important one is B- Your right that they need to be willing and the Heretics certaintly weren't that.

Can't say I agree with the Batarians bit though. You can't blame the whole species for what their government does. That would be like getting mad at North Koreans for for the actions of their government. They're not to blame. 
But the most important thing you said there was "willing". Legion has said on a number of occassions that they are. Why don't you take him at his word?

" If your basis for tolerating the Geth is that they could be useful allies." That isn't my only point. I see them as sentient beings deserving the same rights and respect we give other organics. If we have to resort to slavery to win than that is unethical, immoral, and down right evil. If that's what it takes to win then I dare say that the cost is to high. Especially when there was a peaceful alternative.

Modifié par atheelogos, 23 octobre 2011 - 03:48 .

[Dean_the_Young]

frostajulie wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

frostajulie wrote...

No I have not you just choose to read so deeply into the comment as to ascribe meaning where none exists.  The analogy was about common sense on the part of the geth but I get a feeling you knew that already and are now poking me... metaphorically.

Look, the quote function exists for a reason. Learn it.

As for their political and social incompetence I can agree with you to a point but at the same time they have grown in this direction based on their previous experiences with organics.

Most of which are a result of their own decisions.

Organics hae never trusted them and always attacked them including the creators which established the pattern that organics will always attack first as Legion implies later it appears to me that Geth have periodically set up situations where quarians hap the opportunity to attack the geth first and have victory and the geth monitored the battles and outcomes and in all these attempts at contact 100% of the time the creators attacked.

Except nothing in what you linked, or anywhere else Legion talks, implies any such thing. Legion does not suggest 'we tried to make peace, and were attacked.'

The claim does not exist. The kind would say you are making it up. The ironic would say you ascribe meaning where none exists.

Thus the Geth are acting in their own self interest using what they have learned about organics and steering clear of them, staying behind the perseus veil away from Organics choosing to grow as a species without interacting with the organics except to respond in kind when organics cross into their territory.

Except organics don't have a policy of killing anyone who crosses into their own territory. Organics by and large allow free travel, and even 'unauthorized' travel is first met with attempts to arrest, not destroy, infiltraitors until an escalation of force is called for.

The only reason organics shoot geth on sight now is because Geth invaded the galaxy in an attempt at pan-organic genocide, and still try and wipe out entire colonies.

1. Quote function: this is a forum for conversation and if I want to be lazy you can't make me be otherwise.

I can certainly lambast you for it. You're making conversation on a point-to-point basis entirely dependent on me deciding which topic you're referring to. That's bad communication skills on your point.

You can be lazy. You can be clueless. You can be wrong. I certainly can't stop you from being any three of them. It won't change what you are.

2. The kind and ironic can say what they want I put the video link in that supports my points if you want to ignore it because you don't like whats in it I don't care but you can shout the sky ain't blue all you want but the proof is in the looking.  Look at the video and the claim does exist.  Look at the sky and it is blue.  Same thing

Except the video doesn't imply that the Geth tried to make contact. All Legion says is that the Quarians have attacked the Geth. That's it. He does not say, or suggest, or imply that the circumstances in which the Quarians attacked had anything to do with the Geth making contact in any form, for any reason.

I can understand why some of what you argue is valid but some of what you say is utter nonsense and the rest just rude snipings at a poster who disagrees with your opinion.

If I wanted to insult you, I'd insult you. Pointing out that your argument rests on a claim that Legion doesn't make doesn't mean I'm insulting you, and calling you out for a mistake on your part is hardly 'utter nonsense.'

[Dean_the_Young]

atheelogos wrote...

A- Well I think they are. That's subjective, but its how I see it.

Geth are sentient if you believe in absolute biological determism and the illussion of free will. Many people do.

The more important one is B- Your right that they need to be willing and the Heretics certaintly weren't that.

Can't say I agree with the Batarians bit though. You can't blame the whole species for what their government does. That would be like getting mad at North Koreans for for the actions of their government. They're not to blame.

In this case, 'Batarians' was conversational shorthand for 'the Batarian Hegemony government.'

But the most important thing you said there was "willing". Legion has said on a number of occassions that they are. Why don't you take him at his word?

Why don't I take the word of an emotionally, socially, and politically juvinile person who could also stand to gain by deceiving me?

Well, perhaps because Legion and the Geth are not only emotionally, socially, and politically juvenile persons who also could stand to advance their own agenda by deception. Which, I'll point out, the Geth are quite capable of on both fronts.


Regardless, what Legion has said is a conditional statment: if the Quarians produce evidence proving that a lasting peace is possible, then the Geth would consider it. However, Legion's position also already implicates that the Geth do not believe peace is possible, or else they would not need new information to convince them. This would also require Quarian willingness, when forces like the Xen faction do exist and have significant followings. This also needs to consider the acceptance of everyone else: simply because the Geth claim to not intend to do bad things in the future doesn't mean they won't and thus don't need to be suspected. If you asked 300 years ago, or just 50, I doubt any Geth consensus pre-Sovereign would have gone (or addmitted) 'we plan organic genocide').

And hell, if I were to take Legion at it's word I think I should also take it at all his words, including the ones it only admits under special circumstances... like the promise to enact species retribution against the Quarian people for the crimes committed in the Morning War, if you side with Tali in the loyalty conflict.

Might want to think on that aspect of the Geth as well. I'm pretty sure that's not the Geth consensus just because some third party sided with a Creator in a in-team squabble.

[atheelogos]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

atheelogos wrote...
Yep and the biggest was at Arcturus.

*Citation needed

In a Paragon universe, after all, the Arcturus fleet was still being rebuilt during ME2. In the Renegade universe, the Alliance arms buildup was also involved in taking control of the Citadel Fleets.

Yes I know I said that without a source. I'm just assuming that you'd put most of your resources around  that which you want to protect most. Makes sense to me.

Really? I'd think you'd want to put your resources where they'd do the most good. No nation except the smallest keep most of their forces at the capital region: they keep them at the border, and at other strategic points.

That is, after all, why the Acturus fleet is at Acturus, beyond the Charon relay: because it's a choke point.

......... I think you may have misunderstood me. I'm not disagreeing with you there. I think that putting most of your forces at Acturus is the place "where they'd do the most good." 

"That is, after all, why the Acturus fleet is at Acturus, beyond the Charon relay: because it's a choke point."... yep sounds like a good strategy to me.

[Dean_the_Young]

atheelogos wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

atheelogos wrote...
Yep and the biggest was at Arcturus.

*Citation needed

In a Paragon universe, after all, the Arcturus fleet was still being rebuilt during ME2. In the Renegade universe, the Alliance arms buildup was also involved in taking control of the Citadel Fleets.

Yes I know I said that without a source. I'm just assuming that you'd put most of your resources around  that which you want to protect most. Makes sense to me.

Really? I'd think you'd want to put your resources where they'd do the most good. No nation except the smallest keep most of their forces at the capital region: they keep them at the border, and at other strategic points.

That is, after all, why the Acturus fleet is at Acturus, beyond the Charon relay: because it's a choke point.

......... I think you may have misunderstood me. I'm not disagreeing with you there. I think that putting most of your forces at Acturus is the place "where they'd do the most good." 

"That is, after all, why the Acturus fleet is at Acturus, beyond the Charon relay: because it's a choke point."... yep sounds like a good strategy to me.

Except Acturus is the last chokepoint in the defense of Human space, not the only one.

The Alliance has sectors of colonization, ties to (or control of) the Citadel's defense, bases across the Traverse and even at the edge and in the Terminus. How does putting most of the Alliance's forces over Earth make sense then? Where does anyone get that they stripped their forces from all the other fleets to put them over Earth for the Reapers to destroy?

[Fordtransit]

Hey, thhe main things here are still;


1. mincontrol with geth is unethcal,


2. war is unpractical at least,


3. geth true potential is unknown or guessed at best.


So every agresive move is very doubtful, in practical terms.


Why not team up and face the common threat the reapers?


Quarians vs geth needs to be turned qarians and geth. Tali is actually the first quarian in 200+ yrs who co - oped with geth.


And lets remember, we are all making assumtions here until me3 is out.


Lets be nice.

Modifié par Fordtransit, 24 octobre 2011 - 05:16 .

[Shermos]

When I said earlier that the Geth had no one influential to contact until Shepherd in ME2, someone replied that they could have contacted Anderson because he learned of Sovereign at during the events of one of the Novels. I don't think this person is remembering the events of the novel correctly.

Even though Anderson was there during the events in the novel, it was only Saren who actually found out about Sovereign and eventually the Reapers in general. That's why, when Anderson sees footage of Sovereign at the start of ME1, he doesn't know what it is any more than Sheperd or Nihlus does. He learned of the Reapers existence at the same time Shepherd did.

So again, it doesn't seem the true Geth had anyone they felt worth going to the risk of contacting until Shepherd came along. Therefore, they probably weren't just sitting on their arses waiting for organics to be obliterated.

Whatever inconsistencies there might seem to be here, the writers are just human. With their time constraints, they can't take everything into account. Turning the Geth into possible allies instead of black and white enemies was a cool plot twist and my Sheperd will certainly be doing his best to make sure the Geth survive ME3. We also have to remember that the writers take very much on board the "great man" conception of history where one man can stand out and make a huge difference. Mass Effect wouldn't be the story it is if they didn't. Naturally, Shepherd is the "great man" of this story.

And lets remember, we are all making assumtions here until me3 is out.

+1, but it's cool to try and guess how things could turn out.