462 réponses à ce sujet

[Valdrane78]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...

I guess if wondering if you have a soul is malfunctioning then we are all malfunctioning and deserve to be "shut down,"  according to you it is.  Instead of taking a step back and looking at the big picture

You are the one who cannot see the big picture and that is very dangerous. It means you are very, very blind to the immense danger the quarians were in. They couldn't afford to step back and ponder and experiment and observe. They had to act, and fast, while they still had the ability to fight back and to flee if necessary. Wasting time observing would just be more time the geth would have to organize, the more geth that would "wake up", the more geth the quarians would be unable to control. The stakes would get higher and higher and the quarians' chances lower and lower.

According to Tali the Geth showed no signs of violence until the Quarians attacked first.  Yes they questioned being used as slave labor, but they did not act violently until the Quarians started to try and kill them.  This could have probably all been avoided if the Quarians had just granted the Geth freedom and let them go their own way (this is conjectue of course, we'll never really know).  But as time goes on, the Quarians are becomming more and more consummed with retaking their homeworld, to even go as far as to awaken the Geth and test weapons on them.  There is all sorts of bad going on there.  And it's going to bite them in the ass eventually.

I have sympathy for theQuarians,don'tget me wrong.  I wouldn't want to live on a ship my entire life, living like a pariah.  But they brought it on themselves, and have no one but themselves to blame.

And just because there is a splinter faction of the Geth waging a war on the Reaper's behalf doesn't mean the entire species deserves to die.  It's like hating every Muslin because of a minority splinter group bent on destroying all Western life.

[Abirn]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Funkcase wrote...

They did research that was skirting that law and when the Geth became sentient they broke the law,

No, they never broke the law. Ever. If they never crossed the line then they never crossed the line. What happened was an accident, not a crime. It wasn't even a particularly negligent crime considering sapience in the geth should have been impossible.

The illegal part was when they tried to systematically exterminate the geth because they were sentient.  We have a word for that on Earth.   Genocide.  

The geth have simply acted in self defense.

[bleetman]

Wulfram wrote...

As is destroying all organic vessels which enter their territory.

Yeah, I notice this detail tends to get glossed over quite frequently.

[mesmerizedish]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Abirn wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...

aiDvEoN wrote...

Homey C-Dawg wrote...

"When the creators have thought victory a possibility, they have attacked us 100% of the time" -Legion

I sure wouldn't let someone back in the house if they were trying to kill me.

Raptor Jesus have mercy, I hate that line.

When you're at war, and you think victory is possible, you attack.  That's not aggression, that's common freakin' sense.  The Quarians have not been given any sign, at any point, that the Geth aren't intent on continuing the campaign of genocide that killed 99.9% of their species.

Nope, pushing for conflict because you have the upper hand is opportunism. This is what Germany did in WWII.

Yes, comparing the quarians to the Third Reich. What a completely logical, sensible, and not overused analogy. I commend you on being able to grasp how similar those two situations are.

Um the Quarians tried to systematically exterminate the geth when they got spooked by the geth being sentient. 

In the history of the internet there has never been a situation that could fairly be compared to WW2 Germany and still there is not but this one isn't THAT far out there.

So the Germans were spooked that the Jews were sentient and thought that they would try to rise up and kill all the Germans? Which was then followed by the Jews slaughtering most Germans, including women and children, and forcing the Germans to be exiled? Seems THAT far out there to me.

The Quarians are the Germans in WWII, but the Geth are the Allies in WWI. It's perfect if you don't mind mixing your conflicts.

[Valdrane78]

bleetman wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

As is destroying all organic vessels which enter their territory.

Yeah, I notice this detail tends to get glossed over quite frequently.

Nope, I don't forget that.  It's their territory, it's akin to killing some stranger that breaks into your house.  You intrude onto my territory I will protect myself and my family.  It's not like the true Geth go out of their way to kill organics.

Modifié par Valdrane78, 17 octobre 2011 - 10:38 .

[ADLegend21]

General User wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Aliens: oh hey the humans are getting
inteligent we have them as slaves and if they realize that they might
wanna kill us all KILL THEM ALL, NO PRISONERS

Humans: hey we'd like to peacefully negotiate coexis- *killed

remaining humans: THEY'RE TRYING TO KILL US RETALIATE

*humans overwhelm aliens until aliens flee planet*

Humans: well that's over now, time to clean up!

aliens:
humans are terrible they're the source of all our problems whaaaaaaaa!
They took our homeworld and want to kill us, they're vile and we hate
them and will shout you down if oyu say otherwise.

See how that
is when you put the humans in the Geth's shoes? Teh quarians didn't want
anything to do with ebing equals it was either enslave the geth or kill
them and they chose to kill them and got obliterated when the geth
fought back. They did not surrender, they did not try to stop the war
with peace they chose to fight to the last man and ran when that wasn't
working. The geth did not pursue, they did remained behind and cleaned
up the mess that was made so that the quarians could return to tehir
home, but no the uarians decided to be stubborn idiots and paint the
Geth as some big bad villian when in fact they only acted in self
defense because the quarians trie dto wipe them out when they gained
sentients. Nothing mmore, nothing less.

Did the aliens create the humans and design them to be non-sapient?

you bet your ass they did! They were all like "Let's play god!" and then it back fired because their creations got smart.

[Valdrane78]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...

According to Tali the Geth showed no signs of violence until the Quarians attacked first. 

So let me get this straight. The quarians should have waited for an armed revolt before taking action to prevent themselves and remove this extremely volatile and unprecitable threat?

You DO understand why there are such stringent laws controlling A.I. research, right?

Do you remember what one A.I., an A.I. in large part created by a petty criminal to do petty crime, was capable of on the Citadel without even having a body to manipulate its envirnoment, right? Do you remember that?

How dangerous then do you think are billions of such A.I.'s completeled completely by accident and spread accross an entire civilization spanning multiple worlds?

That's like sayign we should kill all blonde haired blue eyed single men between the ages of 25 and 50 because that is usually the dempographic that serial killers fall into.  Just because one is a threat doesn't mean they are all a threat.

[CamlTowPetttingZoo]

When something that you create asks if it has a soul, whether it looked the word up or not, I would take a step back and try and look at what's going on. The quarians may not have had the intention of creating AI but they did, and they got scared when it started questioning its existence. Neither side is innocent, the quarians panicked and tried to shut down everything before it got out of hand, because of that the geth panicked and fought back. The geth were just better when it came to fighting and they kept going, probably without the intention of killing so many but when you fight for survival, you don't think of if you're going to far. After the quarians left is probably when the geth looked at what they had done. Quarians are still pushing the issue but the geth aren't helping matters by sitting on a planet that they know the quarians want. For all of their understanding it's amazing that they don't see why they aren't being trusted

[General User]

Valdrane78 wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

As is destroying all organic vessels which enter their territory.

Yeah, I notice this detail tends to get glossed over quite frequently.

Nope, I don't forget that.  It's their territory, it's akin to killing some stranger that breaks into your house.  You intrude onto my territory I will protect myself and my family.  It's not like the true Geth go out of their way to kill organics.

That really depends on the nature of the expeditions sent into geth territory.  Shooting someone who breaks into your house is alot different than shooting someone who knocks on your front door.

[Wulfram]

The appropriate response to your robots becoming sapient is "Hey, I noticed you're becoming sapient. Here are your citizenship papers, now lets start negotiating on your salary."

[bleetman]

Valdrane78 wrote...

Nope, I don't forget that.  It's their territory, it's akin to killing some stranger that breaks into your house.  You intrude onto my territory I will protect myself and my family.  It's not like the true Geth go out of their way to kill organics.

Well, no, since breaking into someone's home is inherently aggressive. I'm largely assuming the Quarians run sorties into Geth space from time to time, but there's apparently been a fair share of accidentals and - once the Quarians had fled - diplomatic envoys making crossings over to attempt contact, which got blown out of the sky irregardless. So, to use the home metaphor, it's more akin to shooting anyone who steps onto your property for any reason. Excessive.

Whether they're justified for doing so isn't something I'll really get into myself. Point is, they're not exactly helping themselves.

[Valdrane78]

General User wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

As is destroying all organic vessels which enter their territory.

Yeah, I notice this detail tends to get glossed over quite frequently.

Nope, I don't forget that.  It's their territory, it's akin to killing some stranger that breaks into your house.  You intrude onto my territory I will protect myself and my family.  It's not like the true Geth go out of their way to kill organics.

That really depends on the nature of the expeditions sent into geth territory.  Shooting someone who breaks into your house is alot different than shooting someone who knocks on your front door.

Agreed, but those ships that went into their territory were killed, the ones who skirted it were not.

[sael_feman]

The Quarian logic may dictate it is inefficient to hand over the planet, the Geth might prefer a war; particularly seeing as the heretics were coverted to follow the Geth (for some players).

[Funkcase]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...

According to Tali the Geth showed no signs of violence until the Quarians attacked first. 

So let me get this straight. The quarians should have waited for an armed revolt before taking action to prevent themselves and remove this extremely volatile and unprecitable threat?

You DO understand why there are such stringent laws controlling A.I. research, right?

Do you remember what one A.I., an A.I. in large part created by a petty criminal to do petty crime, was capable of on the Citadel without even having a body to manipulate its envirnoment, right? Do you remember that?

How dangerous then do you think are billions of such A.I.'s completeled completely by accident and spread accross an entire civilization spanning multiple worlds?

Then the Quarians should NOT have played with fire, they took the risk of skirting the law and playing with AI.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Do you remember what one A.I., an A.I. in large part created by a petty criminal to do petty crime, was capable of on the Citadel without even having a body to manipulate its envirnoment, right? Do you remember that?

But that was just one AI, just one, not all of them. And like you said ''made by a criminal'' that would explain a lot dont you think? By that analogy I could say all humans should die becuase one human murdered my uncle.

None of what you're saying makes genocide right, no matter how you try to justify it.

Modifié par Funkcase, 17 octobre 2011 - 10:52 .

[Valdrane78]

bleetman wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...

Nope, I don't forget that.  It's their territory, it's akin to killing some stranger that breaks into your house.  You intrude onto my territory I will protect myself and my family.  It's not like the true Geth go out of their way to kill organics.

Well, no, since breaking into someone's home is inherently aggressive. I'm largely assuming the Quarians run sorties into Geth space from time to time, but there's apparently been a fair share of accidentals and - once the Quarians had fled - diplomatic envoys making crossings over to attempt contact, which got blown out of the sky irregardless. So, to use the home metaphor, it's more akin to shooting anyone who steps onto your property for any reason. Excessive.

Whether they're justified for doing so isn't something I'll really get into myself. Point is, they're not exactly helping themselves.

Never said they were, nore have I ever stated that the Geth are totally innocent in all of this.  All I am saying is that the Geth were right in protecting themselves from being completely destroyed, just liek anyoen here woudl do if they and their family were threatened.  I doubt anyoen here would just sit back and let themselves and their family be killed.

[Zakatak757]

Wulfram wrote...

The appropriate response to your robots becoming sapient is "Hey, I noticed you're becoming sapient. Here are your citizenship papers, now lets start negotiating on your salary."

The Geth would not even need a salary. They have zero interest in material things, like money or anything money could buy them (unless it serves a very practical purpose).

The Quarians wouldn't even lose money to them, so how could they even be a minor inconvienance?

[wright1978]

bleetman wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...

Nope, I don't forget that.  It's their territory, it's akin to killing some stranger that breaks into your house.  You intrude onto my territory I will protect myself and my family.  It's not like the true Geth go out of their way to kill organics.

Well, no, since breaking into someone's home is inherently aggressive. I'm largely assuming the Quarians run sorties into Geth space from time to time, but there's apparently been a fair share of accidentals and - once the Quarians had fled - diplomatic envoys making crossings over to attempt contact, which got blown out of the sky irregardless. So, to use the home metaphor, it's more akin to shooting anyone who steps onto your property for any reason. Excessive.

Whether they're justified for doing so isn't something I'll really get into myself. Point is, they're not exactly helping themselves.

Sorry but what part of any conversation with Quarians suggested that in any way they would even consider making diplomatic envoys to the Geth.

[bleetman]

wright1978 wrote...

Sorry but what part of any conversation with Quarians suggested that in any way they would even consider making diplomatic envoys to the Geth.

I didn't say it was the Quarians. It's brought up in the novels, but isn't specific as to who actually sent them. I'd assume it was the Council.

Modifié par bleetman, 17 octobre 2011 - 10:55 .

[General User]

Valdrane78 wrote...

General User wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

As is destroying all organic vessels which enter their territory.

Yeah, I notice this detail tends to get glossed over quite frequently.

Nope, I don't forget that.  It's their territory, it's akin to killing some stranger that breaks into your house.  You intrude onto my territory I will protect myself and my family.  It's not like the true Geth go out of their way to kill organics.

That really depends on the nature of the expeditions sent into geth territory.  Shooting someone who breaks into your house is alot different than shooting someone who knocks on your front door.

Agreed, but those ships that went into their territory were killed, the ones who skirted it were not.

Consider it from the point of view of whoever was sending those expeditions.  I'm assuming at least some of them were Council or Council-affiliated (ie Turian Fleet, STG, etc.). 

Whatever one might think of the Council's decision to let the quarians and geth fight it out during the Morning War, the leaders of every power in the galaxy would be deeply remiss in their duties to their own citizens if they didn't make every attempt to reconnoiter and evaluate the geth and any threat they may pose.  Especially after the war was over. 

Since the geth refused to engage at all with the rest of the galaxy, the galactic powers had no choice but to physically enter geth territory!

[Valdrane78]

General User wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...

General User wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

As is destroying all organic vessels which enter their territory.

Yeah, I notice this detail tends to get glossed over quite frequently.

Nope, I don't forget that.  It's their territory, it's akin to killing some stranger that breaks into your house.  You intrude onto my territory I will protect myself and my family.  It's not like the true Geth go out of their way to kill organics.

That really depends on the nature of the expeditions sent into geth territory.  Shooting someone who breaks into your house is alot different than shooting someone who knocks on your front door.

Agreed, but those ships that went into their territory were killed, the ones who skirted it were not.

Consider it from the point of view of whoever was sending those expeditions.  I'm assuming at least some of them were Council or Council-affiliated (ie Turian Fleet, STG, etc.). 

Whatever one might think of the Council's decision to let the quarians and geth fight it out during the Morning War, the leaders of every power in the galaxy would be deeply remiss in their duties to their own citizens if they didn't make every attempt to reconnoiter and evaluate the geth and any threat they may pose.  Especially after the war was over. 

Since the geth refused to engage at all with the rest of the galaxy, the galactic powers had no choice but to physically enter geth territory!

I agree, but if they get caught they are going to die.  I've gone on plenty of Recon missions during my time in th eMarine Corps so I understand needing to knwo information, but we were always smart enough not to get caught in enemy territory.

Geth is "enemy" territory and therefore needs to be treated as such and any incursion will be treated as a threat by the Geth.