355 réponses à ce sujet

[Kail Ashton]

I'm glad mass effect is wrapping up (for the most part) cause if i see one more goddamn thread bout this goddamn thermal clip nonsense i'm going to torch this godforasken forum down

[The Spamming Troll]

Gabey5 wrote...

The clips make the gameplay far more smooth

how so?

really, someone explain to me how needing to do more things with your weapon, would make smoother gameplay.

[Varen Spectre]

As always when this topic appears, I would like to express my support to the current ammo system...

I am aware of the fact, that its lore explanation may not be the most believable and that with little suspicion, it would be possible to question both, the mechanism itself and the "sudden" expansion of this system to every location in ME universe.

However, I was able to put up with it easily because of superior enjoyment I got from ME2's ammo system. My most important reasons were:

1. I like the limited supply of ammunition. 

I guess, it could be argued, that the supply of ammo in ME2 is actually very large and it is very hard to run out of it, but... that's something that is not so obvious during the first playthrough(s). And those are the most important for me. 

I simply love the moments when I am speculating, whether I should use particular weapon (e.g. particle beam) now or whether I should save it for harder enemies that may come later. That feeling, that dilemma simply can't be emulated in the game with unlimited ammo.

Another reason why I like limited ammo is the tension that increases accordingly with the decreasing ammount of ammo that is at Shepard's disposal. Aiming at enemies with last few rounds is something else than aiming at them with weapon with unlimited ammo and the urgency to aim properly is much more immediate. Yes, the likelihood that a lot of ammo is awaiting for me once I defeat the enemy is very high, but that is a very small relief during the combat itself.

2. I feel like the reloading system offers greater freedom in my decision making about Shepard's attacks than cooldown system in ME1.

I admit, this might be my fault based on my lack of creativity, exploration or experiments, but I felt like combat in ME1 turned into set of patterns of regularly repeated attacks in comparison to ME2, as far as shooting is concerned.

I mean, in ME1 I had to accommodate to cooldown periods of my weapons, the length of which was dependant on the lentgth of period during which I was shooting at the enemies. As a result, the lentgh of active (shooting) and inactive (waiting for cooldown) cycles during the combat was quite similar. Because of that, I felt like my attacks became too regular. I did either use short bursts with short breaks between them, or one large burst (or series of short bursts with insufficient breaks) with a long break after it. 

Either way, I eventually found certain patterns of attacks which were suitable (or bearable depending on my mood^_^ ) for certain type of encounters. As a result, combat in ME1 felt like series of regularly repeated moves (few short bursts with rifle, few short bursts with pistol, short break and few short burst rifle again) rather than some kind of dynamic activity with lot of room for on the spot decisions. Of course, switching weapons helped a lot, but it was not a full fledged alternative for temporarily non-functional primary weapon.

In ME2 on the other hand, the length of inactive periods (reloading) was not only not dependant on the length active periods (shooting), but was much shorter in comparison to them as well. As a result, I felt like the length of reloading did not influence my decisions about my attacks (should I use short bursts or should shoot away entire magazine) nowhere near as much as the length of cooldown periods in ME1. Consequently, I felt like I had much more freedom in deciding how much rounds I was going to shoot and at what point I was going to restore my ability to shoot away entire magazine again by reloading.

So to sum up, I support the system from ME2, but it is just my subjective opinion and I do not intend to impose it on anyone. I am just letting the ME team know that there is another fan of the current system.    

Modifié par Varen Spectre, 20 octobre 2011 - 07:12 .

[CptBomBom00]

yeah .

[Barry Bathernak]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

The clips make the gameplay far more smooth

how so?

really, someone explain to me how needing to do more things with your weapon, would make smoother gameplay.

well you see having to reload and then run out of cover to get more ammo allows me to kill more people faster and more easily compared to getting to stay in cover and shoot.

[CptBomBom00]

yes they make game more hardass.

[Icinix]

As always,

I found the overheating guns, modified guns to never overheat, modify games to fire super powered shots that overheated after one shot, geth hoppers and insane regenerating Krogan to be a much more powerful gameplay experience than the ammo system in ME2.

Ammo clips were one factor that actually made the gameplay less interesting for me.

[Sebbe1337o]

*trying to involve some laws of physics into the thread*

Do you know how long it takes for very hot metal to cool down? Thermal Clips makes perfect sense - exchangeable/disposable heatsinks.


hint: It could take hours.

[GMagnum]

bsn

[Fixers0]

What's the point of thermal clips?

Short Anweser: Money.

Long anwser: As said it eventually always comes down to money.
For Bioware Technical Departement it's quick, easy and cheap, no time and effort wasted into more creative and complex decisions, then bioware marketing can advertise about their "new" combat method and how fluid and smooth gameplay is going to be, etc. it's all about the money

Average shooter gamers , While i won't call them stupid, are attracted to a pattern of simplicity and routine, please no thinking or complex mechanics unless it's explicitly show or told, interestingly enough this contradicts the feeling of sudden tension and uncontrollable situation of real-life. combat, thus these people prefer simplistic combat mechanics that can be clearly defined.

Me? I'll be upfront with my opinion, i don't like them, they cheapen the gameplay, they cheapen the lore and they cheapen the experiance, basically it's all cheap, regardless of perspective.

[Tonymac]

This thread and the ones like it are SO old hat......

Lets find something new to talk about - like ME and weapon mods! Yay for bringing back weapon mods!

[Someone With Mass]

Don't pretend that the weapon system in ME1 was complex in any way, because it wasn't.

It was the most basic and boring system I've seen in a very long time. Even Halo had a better system for its plasma weapons.

You pick up a gun. If it has a higher stats than your current gun, you replace it and sell/convert the old one. Same thing with armor and weapon mods.

Nothing complicated that takes some rocket scientist to figure out.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 20 octobre 2011 - 09:25 .

[Rogue Unit]

BioWare should have just introduced TC in ME1 then everyone could shut up.

[monrapias]

Because guns with unlimited ammo is lame. This game is a shooter as well, any shooting game should have an ammo system.

[The Spamming Troll]

Barry Bathernak wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

The clips make the gameplay far more smooth

how so?

really, someone explain to me how needing to do more things with your weapon, would make smoother gameplay.

well you see having to reload and then run out of cover to get more ammo allows me to kill more people faster and more easily compared to getting to stay in cover and shoot.

i cant tell if your being serious in your last few posts to me.

itd be too easy for me to rebuttle this if you are being serious, so im not sure what to do about it.

[The Spamming Troll]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Don't pretend that the weapon system in ME1 was complex in any way, because it wasn't.

It was the most basic and boring system I've seen in a very long time. Even Halo had a better system for its plasma weapons.

You pick up a gun. If it has a higher stats than your current gun, you replace it and sell/convert the old one. Same thing with armor and weapon mods.

Nothing complicated that takes some rocket scientist to figure out.

who are you responding to here?

i havent seen anyone praising the things your talking about. we all agree frictionless materials needed to go, beucase modding your weapon to fire forever can only mean my gun has somehow become OP. ......because i modded it that way. but wait, i can also mod it to NOT shoot forever too! oh boy, i guess i hate the ME1 overheat mechanic because i dont understadn it was MY choice to mod my gun to fire forever. even tho guns that fired forever are the weakest method of modding guns in ME1 anyways. if anything dual scrams made the gun OP, not dual frictionless materials.

whatever, i dont know who needs to be more aware of obviouse things like this.

[NeroSparda]

Gabey5 wrote...

Callidus Thorn wrote...

I loved the overheating system in ME1, I generally used the sniper rifle, which in my opinion needs the overheat mechanic, just to slow it down more. It was more tactical. In ME2 I'd just switch weapon if I ran out of ammo, in ME1 if your weapon overheated you chose between waiting for it to cool down (which should've taken longer imo) or changing weapon.

All they needed to do was tweak the ME1 system to make overheating unavoidable and more of a problem, and the result would have been far more challenging than the thermal clip system.

You want challenging? Don't pick up so much ammo and raise the difficulty.The clips make the gameplay far more smooth and i am glad they were introduced. Mass Effect gameplay was clunky and the guns made no sense from a lore perspective. In the future you expect me to believe our guns have gotten worse in terms of reload time? And you wanted LONGER cooldowns? Glad you are in the minority.

Apparently you think.

Long Cooldowns = must be replaced by ammo instead of finding a way to get a shorter cooldown, of course that will make people complain about "OH MY GOD! OVERPOWERED! I CAN SHOOT FOREVER! MUST HAVE AMMO INSTEAD, THESE THINGS MUST BE NERFED! AKGASDKJHDKAJFDSKAFKDJSA!"

[RedCaesar97]

Varen Spectre wrote...
<snip>  

Apologies to Varen Spectre for snipping a well-written post, but I did not want to quote a wall of text just to add a few words.

I agree with Varen Spectre that the Thermal Clip system--despite some lore hand-waving--made for a greatly-improved shooting mechanics, for a lot of the reasons he mentioned.

I know a lot people in this thread liked the overheating system. I did too at one point. But after playing Mass Effect 2, I find it extremely frustrating to go back and play Mass Effect 1 now, with its ridiculously clunky shooting mechanics, upgrade and mod system (and loot and inventory), and power cooldown system. The overhaul of the game mechanics in Mass Effect 2 made for a much more enjoyable combat experience. 

The thermal clip system, combined with other weapon mechanics such as fire rate and weapon damage, allowed for more diverse weapons. In Mass Effect 1, you always had 1 assault rifle, 1 pistol, 1 shotgun, and 1 sniper rifle, which you just upgraded throughout the game. In Mass Effect 2, you had your choice of Pistols, assault rifles, shotguns, and sniper rifles. Thermal clips is one factor that allows for this weapon diversity.

The thermal clip system also provides a familiar shooting/reloading mechanic. I know a lot of forumites complain that BioWare is pandering to the Call of Duty crowd, but if you are going to implement shooting mechanics in your game, you have to provide competent shooting mechanics. Thermal Clips (along with other factors) help provide competent shooting mechanics.

[Callidus Thorn]

@Varen Spectre
1) Limited supply of ammunition? Only in theory is it limited, in practice if I ran out of ammo for one gun, I just switched in the next. The enemies died before the ammo ran out, then I collected the clips. I still had unlimited ammo, it was just spread across the weapons.

2) I thought the point of the overheating system was that you limited your rate of fire, rather than firing until you overheat. All they did for that approach was shorten your reload time.

With ME1 I found the overheating to be a restriction, with ME2 I found thermal clips to be nothing but a chore. It's not as if they even implemented it well for instance: I can take a thermal off a dead guy with an assault rifle, and load it into my sniper rifle, so why can't I take a thermal clip allocated to my SMG and load it into my sniper rifle? So that you can run out of ammo for a particular weapon, forcing you to change. It's arbitrary and not justified in game.

[Gatt9]

Sebbe1337o wrote...

*trying to involve some laws of physics into the thread*

Do you know how long it takes for very hot metal to cool down? Thermal Clips makes perfect sense - exchangeable/disposable heatsinks.


hint: It could take hours.

Do you know what the energy requirement for a instantenous sustained complete heat transfer of hudreds of degrees are?  I don't know either,  but I do know you'd likely need something on the order of a nuclear power plant to approach it.

I could probably do the math if I felt like working through the calc equations,  but I already know we're talking a very high level of energy neceesary,  so high that the very best tactic in a battle would be to shoot the other guy's thermal clips and watch him and his army die in the resulting explosion.

I'll also guarantee you,  there's no heatsink material we know of,  theoretical or known to exist,  that's going to achieve a complete sustained transfer of heat that results in 0 heat gain to the origin.  

So basically,  the thermal clips in Mass Effect 2 are made of magic. 

Modifié par Gatt9, 20 octobre 2011 - 11:09 .

[The Spamming Troll]

RedCaesar97 wrote.... 

The thermal clip system, combined with other weapon mechanics such as fire rate and weapon damage, allowed for more diverse weapons. In Mass Effect 1, you always had 1 assault rifle, 1 pistol, 1 shotgun, and 1 sniper rifle, which you just upgraded throughout the game. In Mass Effect 2, you had your choice of Pistols, assault rifles, shotguns, and sniper rifles. Thermal clips is one factor that allows for this weapon diversity.

The thermal clip system also provides a familiar shooting/reloading mechanic. I know a lot of forumites complain that BioWare is pandering to the Call of Duty crowd, but if you are going to implement shooting mechanics in your game, you have to provide competent shooting mechanics. Thermal Clips (along with other factors) help provide competent shooting mechanics.

i guess i have to bring this up again. what do TCs have to do with weapon variety in ME2? there isnt a single gun in ME2 that couldnt be fit with an overheat mechanic. TCs nor overheating provided variety. its simply two different ammo management systems.

TCs dont provide unique and memorable gameplay. ME1s weapons did, its a fact. thats why were hear argueing about it today. if it wasnt that ME1 started with a great setup for a weapon system, there wouldnt be a problem using ammo in ME2 or ME3.

there are people that arent satisfied with TCs in ME2. there are people that arent satisfied with the overheat system. i think a reloadable overheat hybrid system would make both parties happy. but bioware doesnt care about making everyone happy, only its new ME3 players.

i wonder if ME3 will feel nostalgic at all.

[1136342t54_]

Callidus Thorn wrote...

I loved the overheating system in ME1, I generally used the sniper rifle, which in my opinion needs the overheat mechanic, just to slow it down more. It was more tactical. In ME2 I'd just switch weapon if I ran out of ammo, in ME1 if your weapon overheated you chose between waiting for it to cool down (which should've taken longer imo) or changing weapon.

All they needed to do was tweak the ME1 system to make overheating unavoidable and more of a problem, and the result would have been far more challenging than the thermal clip system.

Problem is with that a in lore explanation for it wouldn't make much sense. You would basically be saying that ME2 weapons overheat far more often and is unavoidable. Thermal clips actually allows it to make more sense while more only a bit more challenging.

Also my sniper rifle rarely overheated unless I used scram rail after scram rail and High explosive rounds. You usually never needed more than one shot to take down a target.

[1136342t54_]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

The clips make the gameplay far more smooth

how so?

really, someone explain to me how needing to do more things with your weapon, would make smoother gameplay.

Depends on what these more things are. With the Thermal clips all I had to do was reload and find ammo if I ran out (which wasn't often). In ME1 you would have to wait a rather long time for your weapon to cool down unless you had a certain amount of upgrades to make that weapon immune to overheating.

Also with ammo I was more likely to move around the battlefield more (it isn't the sole reason why I did that) to gain ammo and advantage over my foes. You could make an attempt to say the overheat mechanic basically forces you to move around the battlefield to retreat from foes when your weapon won't be able to fire. That doesn't work when you have enough Frictionless material upgrades to keep you weapon firing indefinitely.