355 réponses à ce sujet

[Sgt Stryker]

Gatt9 wrote...

Sebbe1337o wrote...

*trying to involve some laws of physics into the thread*

Do you know how long it takes for very hot metal to cool down? Thermal Clips makes perfect sense - exchangeable/disposable heatsinks.


hint: It could take hours.

Do you know what the energy requirement for a instantenous sustained complete heat transfer of hudreds of degrees are?  I don't know either,  but I do know you'd likely need something on the order of a nuclear power plant to approach it.

I could probably do the math if I felt like working through the calc equations,  but I already know we're talking a very high level of energy neceesary,  so high that the very best tactic in a battle would be to shoot the other guy's thermal clips and watch him and his army die in the resulting explosion.

I'll also guarantee you,  there's no heatsink material we know of,  theoretical or known to exist,  that's going to achieve a complete sustained transfer of heat that results in 0 heat gain to the origin.  

So basically,  the thermal clips in Mass Effect 2 are made of magic. 

Wait. Why do you believe that in order to absorb heat, the heat sink needs to use some sort of mysterious "energy" supposedly contained within the heat sink? Also, if a simple gunshot were enough to make a heat sink violently explode (lol), what do you think cooking one to the point that it glowed bright orange would do? That's precisely what the waste heat produced by firing a mass accelerator gun does, by the way.

The fact that guns don't spontaneously explode just from normal operation directly contradicts your "explosive thermal clip" theory. They're inert and unreactive, but have a high heat capacity and thermal conduction.

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 20 octobre 2011 - 11:42 .

[Candidate 88766]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

Sebbe1337o wrote...

*trying to involve some laws of physics into the thread*

Do you know how long it takes for very hot metal to cool down? Thermal Clips makes perfect sense - exchangeable/disposable heatsinks.


hint: It could take hours.

Do you know what the energy requirement for a instantenous sustained complete heat transfer of hudreds of degrees are?  I don't know either,  but I do know you'd likely need something on the order of a nuclear power plant to approach it.

I could probably do the math if I felt like working through the calc equations,  but I already know we're talking a very high level of energy neceesary,  so high that the very best tactic in a battle would be to shoot the other guy's thermal clips and watch him and his army die in the resulting explosion.

I'll also guarantee you,  there's no heatsink material we know of,  theoretical or known to exist,  that's going to achieve a complete sustained transfer of heat that results in 0 heat gain to the origin.  

So basically,  the thermal clips in Mass Effect 2 are made of magic. 

Wait. Why do you believe that in order to absorb heat, the heat sink needs to use some sort of mysterious "energy" supposedly contained within the heat sink? Also, if a simple gunshot were enough to make a heat sink violently explode (lol), what do you think cooking one to the point that it glowed bright orange would do? That's precisely what the waste heat produced by firing a mass accelerator gun does, by the way.

The fact that guns don't spontaneously explode just from normal operation directly contradicts your "explosive thermal clip" theory. They're inert and unreactive, but have a high heat capacity and thermal conduction.

Exactly. Just ensure that everything around the thermal clip has low thermal conduction to prevent heat spreading to other parts of the gun and physics takes care of the rest. Its not magic - the heat will flow somewhere, so clever use of materials ensures the vast majority flows into the clips. Some heat may inevitably be transferred to the rest of the gun (through the barrel for example) but a cooling system would take care of that. Thermal clips can't take away 100% of the heat (as far as I know that is impossible) but they can absorb most of it.

A simple analogy is a kettle. The heating mechanism is the mass accelerator, the water is the thermal clip and the kettle is the rest of the gun. Virtually all of the heat generated goes into the water - the kettle remains perfectly safe to touch despite internal temperatures being pretty high. After a while the water must be ejected, much like the thermal clip. Not a perfect analogy, but good enough to give a general idea.

[Subferro]

Neurotics wrote...

Thermal Clips > Overheat Mechanic.
They are quicker to swap out verses waiting out the overheat cooldown and I like that "click" noise they make as you eject them.


But this is BSN where some people have to b*tch and moan and complain over goddamn everything.

I'm all for having a quicker swap out method instead of waiting for the weapon to cool down, but they strike me as a technological "1 step forward, 2 steps back" situation. 

The quick reload is awesome, but why would I want to put myself in a situation where my guns turn into paperweights because I'm out of thermal clips?

Sure ammo is fairly ubiquitous, but in a firefight I can easily run out of ammo in my Vindicator and be forced to switch to something else until I have free time to run around and grab the shiny things.

Other than that I have no problem with thermal clips, lore or gameplay wise.

[Barry Bathernak]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Barry Bathernak wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

The clips make the gameplay far more smooth

how so?

really, someone explain to me how needing to do more things with your weapon, would make smoother gameplay.

well you see having to reload and then run out of cover to get more ammo allows me to kill more people faster and more easily compared to getting to stay in cover and shoot.

i cant tell if your being serious in your last few posts to me.

itd be too easy for me to rebuttle this if you are being serious, so im not sure what to do about it.

 i was being sarcastic that was all.

[The Spamming Troll]

1136342t54 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

The clips make the gameplay far more smooth

how so?

really, someone explain to me how needing to do more things with your weapon, would make smoother gameplay.

Depends on what these more things are. With the Thermal clips all I had to do was reload and find ammo if I ran out (which wasn't often). In ME1 you would have to wait a rather long time for your weapon to cool down unless you had a certain amount of upgrades to make that weapon immune to overheating.

Also with ammo I was more likely to move around the battlefield more (it isn't the sole reason why I did that) to gain ammo and advantage over my foes. You could make an attempt to say the overheat mechanic basically forces you to move around the battlefield to retreat from foes when your weapon won't be able to fire. That doesn't work when you have enough Frictionless material upgrades to keep you weapon firing indefinitely.

there never seems to be a positive to overheating mechanics of ME1 with most of the posters here. you say it was bad becasue we could fire forever with the appropriate mods. but then you also say its bad becasue if you fired to often your gun would overheat. is the gun suppose to not fireforever, but never overheat?!!?!??!!??!!!? it isnt untill your weapon overheats, that the wait for using that weapon can seem rather long. if you dont over heat, your gun is ready to be used just as fast as an ME2 reload. ME2 gives us regen health and medigel so i can see why sitting in cover wiht an overheated weapon wouldnt fit that gameplay perfectly. but thats why there should be the option to reload the ME1 clip to get right back in the fight.

whatever. im not expecting ME3 to be better then ME1 anyways.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 21 octobre 2011 - 03:52 .

[Gatt9]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

Sebbe1337o wrote...

*trying to involve some laws of physics into the thread*

Do you know how long it takes for very hot metal to cool down? Thermal Clips makes perfect sense - exchangeable/disposable heatsinks.


hint: It could take hours.

Do you know what the energy requirement for a instantenous sustained complete heat transfer of hudreds of degrees are?  I don't know either,  but I do know you'd likely need something on the order of a nuclear power plant to approach it.

I could probably do the math if I felt like working through the calc equations,  but I already know we're talking a very high level of energy neceesary,  so high that the very best tactic in a battle would be to shoot the other guy's thermal clips and watch him and his army die in the resulting explosion.

I'll also guarantee you,  there's no heatsink material we know of,  theoretical or known to exist,  that's going to achieve a complete sustained transfer of heat that results in 0 heat gain to the origin.  

So basically,  the thermal clips in Mass Effect 2 are made of magic. 

Wait. Why do you believe that in order to absorb heat, the heat sink needs to use some sort of mysterious "energy" supposedly contained within the heat sink? Also, if a simple gunshot were enough to make a heat sink violently explode (lol), what do you think cooking one to the point that it glowed bright orange would do? That's precisely what the waste heat produced by firing a mass accelerator gun does, by the way.

The fact that guns don't spontaneously explode just from normal operation directly contradicts your "explosive thermal clip" theory. They're inert and unreactive, but have a high heat capacity and thermal conduction.

You need to review your thermodynamics lessons.  If you want to cool a weapon instantenously to a constant temperature,  with 0 heat gain,  you cannot do it passively.  It is physically impossible.  Because your passive heatsink absorbs heat until it and the material it is absorbing it from are in equilibrium,  with the excess heat being bled off into ambient air at a specific rate.  Once you exceed your passive heatsinks ability to absorb and discharge heat,  which is when the two are in equilibrium and the transfer rate to the air is lower than the heat-creation rate of the gun,  you build up heat beyond the heatsink's ability to cool.

Since we're talking 0 heat gain,  we cannot be talking passive heatsinks.  There's no known material that absorbs all heat,  and bleeds it off as fast as it absorbs it.  Nor is there any theoretical passive material that achieves this event.

As such,  the only option is active cooling.  A power source facilitating the heat transfer/reduction through  refrigeration on the order of the temperatures in space,  which requires a extremely significant energy source.  This means,  all you have to do is cause the energy source to discharge suddenly,  generally through fracturing it's containment,  to cause a extreme reaction.  Kind of like what happens when the lithium battery in a cell phone is cracked (Big hint,  you get fire or explosion).

Now might also be a *really* good time for you to realize that the heatsinks on a rail gun don't result in a complete heat transfer,  keep firing that thing when it's hot,  it will fracture/explode.

I'd suggest you go "lol" while actually reading about the topic before trying to make claims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_sink 

Failing that,  you might want to invest a few minutes in downloading Coretemp and Prime95 to see what a heatsink actually does,  or paying attention to the engine temperatures of your car. 

But I would caution you about not having a clue what you're talking about and "loling" at people.  Because some of us have spent a good deal of time learning about heatsinks and heat exchange when building computers.  Some of us even paid attention in class when learning the equations.

[1136342t54_]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

The clips make the gameplay far more smooth

how so?

really, someone explain to me how needing to do more things with your weapon, would make smoother gameplay.

Depends on what these more things are. With the Thermal clips all I had to do was reload and find ammo if I ran out (which wasn't often). In ME1 you would have to wait a rather long time for your weapon to cool down unless you had a certain amount of upgrades to make that weapon immune to overheating.

Also with ammo I was more likely to move around the battlefield more (it isn't the sole reason why I did that) to gain ammo and advantage over my foes. You could make an attempt to say the overheat mechanic basically forces you to move around the battlefield to retreat from foes when your weapon won't be able to fire. That doesn't work when you have enough Frictionless material upgrades to keep you weapon firing indefinitely.

there never seems to be a positive to overheating mechanics of ME1 with most of the posters here. you say it was bad becasue we could fire forever with the appropriate mods. but then you also say its bad becasue if you fired to often your gun would overheat. is the gun suppose to not fireforever, but never overheat?!!?!??!!??!!!? it isnt untill your weapon overheats, that the wait for using that weapon can seem rather long. if you dont over heat, your gun is ready to be used just as fast as an ME2 reload. ME2 gives us regen health and medigel so i can see why sitting in cover wiht an overheated weapon wouldnt fit that gameplay perfectly. but thats why there should be the option to reload the ME1 clip to get right back in the fight.

whatever. im not expecting ME3 to be better then ME1 anyways.

I love the way you make claims that I've said all of that was actually bad. Don't attempt to invent a position I haven't taken on what is bad or not.

Modifié par 1136342t54 , 21 octobre 2011 - 04:16 .

[Crawlingkingsnake]

Where's Stanley Woo when you NEED him?

[clopin]

Why are people bringing actual science into this? That defeats the purpose of sci-fi. You know, science fiction. Or science that is fiction. In other words, it's science that isn't real. You know, impossible. The general consensus agrees it's better gameplay mechanic than overheating was. Deal with it. Is the lore explanation retarded? Yup. Guess what? I deal with it.

Also Bioware likes to ****** people off that thought ME1 had acceptable gunplay.

Modifié par clopin, 21 octobre 2011 - 04:52 .

[Sgt Stryker]

Gatt9 wrote...

You need to review your thermodynamics lessons.  If you want to cool a weapon instantenously to a constant temperature,  with 0 heat gain,  you cannot do it passively.  It is physically impossible.  Because your passive heatsink absorbs heat until it and the material it is absorbing it from are in equilibrium,  with the excess heat being bled off into ambient air at a specific rate.  Once you exceed your passive heatsinks ability to absorb and discharge heat,  which is when the two are in equilibrium and the transfer rate to the air is lower than the heat-creation rate of the gun,  you build up heat beyond the heatsink's ability to cool.

Since we're talking 0 heat gain,  we cannot be talking passive heatsinks.  There's no known material that absorbs all heat,  and bleeds it off as fast as it absorbs it.  Nor is there any theoretical passive material that achieves this event.

As such,  the only option is active cooling.  A power source facilitating the heat transfer/reduction through  refrigeration on the order of the temperatures in space,  which requires a extremely significant energy source.  This means,  all you have to do is cause the energy source to discharge suddenly,  generally through fracturing it's containment,  to cause a extreme reaction.  Kind of like what happens when the lithium battery in a cell phone is cracked (Big hint,  you get fire or explosion).

Now might also be a *really* good time for you to realize that the heatsinks on a rail gun don't result in a complete heat transfer,  keep firing that thing when it's hot,  it will fracture/explode.

I'd suggest you go "lol" while actually reading about the topic before trying to make claims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_sink 

Failing that,  you might want to invest a few minutes in downloading Coretemp and Prime95 to see what a heatsink actually does,  or paying attention to the engine temperatures of your car. 

But I would caution you about not having a clue what you're talking about and "loling" at people.  Because some of us have spent a good deal of time learning about heatsinks and heat exchange when building computers.  Some of us even paid attention in class when learning the equations.

Wow, sounds like I've hit a nerve.

OK, I get where you're coming from with the thermal equilibrium argument. There is no way for all the heat generated by the gun's mechanisms to be transferred into the heat sink, so that the heat sink has a higher temperature than these mechanisms. Heat does not spontaneously flow from a cold reservoir to a hot reservoir. However, this active cooling argument seems to rely on two assumptions: that the heat transfer is instantaneous, and the magnetic accelerator component of the gun is restored to its initial temperature by the heat sink alone. Why do you assume that? What happened to good old venting? The guns still have what appear to be vents of some sort, so why do you think this geth innovation completely replaced the old cooling system? To use an electronics analogy, I do not believe that everyone else was still using vacuum tubes, and the geth suddenly invented transistors. Rather, I think it was similar to the transition between single-core and multi-core processors. Gradual technological evolution, not a sudden paradigm shift.

Anyway, I'll believe it when I see it. If/when they show a spare thermal clip being shot, and that thermal clip explodes (in a cutscene, mind you) then I will gladly concede. Until then, this remains little more than fan speculation.

[Zanallen]

If we are going to bring real world physics into this, you'll have to throw out the whole concept of ME weaponry. The whole thing revolves around a fictional substance.

[Barry Bathernak]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

You need to review your thermodynamics lessons.  If you want to cool a weapon instantenously to a constant temperature,  with 0 heat gain,  you cannot do it passively.  It is physically impossible.  Because your passive heatsink absorbs heat until it and the material it is absorbing it from are in equilibrium,  with the excess heat being bled off into ambient air at a specific rate.  Once you exceed your passive heatsinks ability to absorb and discharge heat,  which is when the two are in equilibrium and the transfer rate to the air is lower than the heat-creation rate of the gun,  you build up heat beyond the heatsink's ability to cool.

Since we're talking 0 heat gain,  we cannot be talking passive heatsinks.  There's no known material that absorbs all heat,  and bleeds it off as fast as it absorbs it.  Nor is there any theoretical passive material that achieves this event.

As such,  the only option is active cooling.  A power source facilitating the heat transfer/reduction through  refrigeration on the order of the temperatures in space,  which requires a extremely significant energy source.  This means,  all you have to do is cause the energy source to discharge suddenly,  generally through fracturing it's containment,  to cause a extreme reaction.  Kind of like what happens when the lithium battery in a cell phone is cracked (Big hint,  you get fire or explosion).

Now might also be a *really* good time for you to realize that the heatsinks on a rail gun don't result in a complete heat transfer,  keep firing that thing when it's hot,  it will fracture/explode.

I'd suggest you go "lol" while actually reading about the topic before trying to make claims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_sink 

Failing that,  you might want to invest a few minutes in downloading Coretemp and Prime95 to see what a heatsink actually does,  or paying attention to the engine temperatures of your car. 

But I would caution you about not having a clue what you're talking about and "loling" at people.  Because some of us have spent a good deal of time learning about heatsinks and heat exchange when building computers.  Some of us even paid attention in class when learning the equations.

Wow, sounds like I've hit a nerve.

OK, I get where you're coming from with the thermal equilibrium argument. There is no way for all the heat generated by the gun's mechanisms to be transferred into the heat sink, so that the heat sink has a higher temperature than these mechanisms. Heat does not spontaneously flow from a cold reservoir to a hot reservoir. However, this active cooling argument seems to rely on two assumptions: that the heat transfer is instantaneous, and the magnetic accelerator component of the gun is restored to its initial temperature by the heat sink alone. Why do you assume that? What happened to good old venting? The guns still have what appear to be vents of some sort, so why do you think this geth innovation completely replaced the old cooling system? To use an electronics analogy, I do not believe that everyone else was still using vacuum tubes, and the geth suddenly invented transistors. Rather, I think it was similar to the transition between single-core and multi-core processors. Gradual technological evolution, not a sudden paradigm shift.

Anyway, I'll believe it when I see it. If/when they show a spare thermal clip being shot, and that thermal clip explodes (in a cutscene, mind you) then I will gladly concede. Until then, this remains little more than fan speculation.

wait wait wait so a cut scene isn't good enough you need it to be a gameplay mechanic?since we all know they wont do that and i mean really a CUT SCENE isn't enough.

[Someone With Mass]

The geth are also using venting technology in their guns along with the clips to provide optimal cooling.

Can see it when reloading their guns. Streams of air shoots out on the sides.

[Sgt Stryker]

Barry Bathernak wrote...

wait wait wait so a cut scene isn't good enough you need it to be a gameplay mechanic?since we all know they wont do that and i mean really a CUT SCENE isn't enough.

On the contrary, I ask for the exact opposite of what you wrote. I want a cutscene clearly showing one of these explosive thermal clips, because seeing it in gameplay isn't good enough.

[The Spamming Troll]

Someone With Mass wrote...

The geth are also using venting technology in their guns along with the clips to provide optimal cooling.

Can see it when reloading their guns. Streams of air shoots out on the sides.

how hot do you think that vented air is they are blowing directly into their faces?

we should be seeing alot more melted face in the MEuniverse.

[Someone With Mass]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

The geth are also using venting technology in their guns along with the clips to provide optimal cooling.

Can see it when reloading their guns. Streams of air shoots out on the sides.

how hot do you think that vented air is they are blowing directly into their faces?

we should be seeing alot more melted face in the MEuniverse.

Considering that they're machines, I don't think a little hot air will do much to them.

That, and the air isn't shooting out in their faces.

[The Spamming Troll]

nah. the air venting out certainly isnt cold air.

id imagine you can do alot of damage with the air venting out of hand held mass accelerators. unless geth are fire retardant.

[Sgt Stryker]

It may not be cold air, but it's also not hot enough to damage a machine, evidently. Also, if you take ME1 into account, I think it's safe to conclude that geth are more resilient to temperature extremes than most organics. I am of course thinking of the mission on Metgos.

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 21 octobre 2011 - 03:10 .

[P38 ace]

I hated the TC's

this is suppost to be a Sci-fi game with tech 200 years in the future
and we need ammo???????

ME1 did it perfectly
sence the guns have no moving parts, as far as the tech leads us to believe, the only place for heat to build up was the barrel. adding a heat sink to a gun makes scence, you put it around the barrel and the HS is made of a materal, natural or syntheic that absorbs and releses heat at a faster rate than the barrel can do by its self. and scence the gun does not run out of ammo for a long time, you should be able to fire forever, if the HS allows it

ME2 scerwed it up
so in ME2 we have a gun with unlimited ammo, has little to no moving parts the mantain, and can be taliored to be better than any other gun in the game, based on what the player wants.

TO

A gun with unlimited ammo that, and litle to no moving parts, that now has a controled fire rate that the player can not change, a set accuracy, and a limited variablity of damage, and a limited number of shots that can be fired in a set amount of time???

?
i though they had UNLIMITIED AMMO, these TC are suppost to give you i greater time of firing on enamies. from my expericances it dose the exact oppoisite. i spend more time Reloading than acuatually shooting people. finding ammo was no trouble, but i spent 30% of the time in a fire-fight was spent reloading, 50% was giving commands and taking cover to heal, and the final 20% was in accutally firing.
and i though TC where universial, so when i do run out of ammo in my Revant, why can i not take my TC on my Pistol, that i never use, and my SR the a rarely use to my revant that a always use,
they must be univerally UNCOMAPTABLE.

and what is the deal with these migic Black boxes on guns that Magically Change the type of ammo mine and all of my Squades guns shoot, an i lone can only use 3 max at one time
what is keeping me from pressing the botton on the magic box that lets me shoot Armor-peirsing, Shredder, Incendiary and, magic warp ammo. what is stooping me.

all of the customisable fetures of guns in the Mass effect univers that is part of what an RPG game is, where takeing out and replaced with a rediculus COD, FPS style game play mechainises, that no longer makes it a Sci-Fi RPG.

[Someone With Mass]

There's no such thing as unlimited ammo in Mass Effect.

Wrex talks about how he ran around on a station, picking up dead mercs' weapons, because he ran out of ammo and one Alliance outpost was also running low on ammo.

That means that they must've fired thousands and thousands of rounds to deplete the ammo blocks inside the guns.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 21 octobre 2011 - 05:15 .

[Shepard the Leper]

P38 ace wrote...

all of the customisable fetures of guns in the Mass effect univers that is part of what an RPG game is, where takeing out and replaced with a rediculus COD, FPS style game play mechainises, that no longer makes it a Sci-Fi RPG.

The things is, Bioware doesn't want ME to be a "Sci-Fi RPG" - they try to create a Sci-Fi space adventure based on a TPS combat system with added RPG elements. You are critizing a game that tries to combine different game(play) genres for doing just that ...