355 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Barry Bathernak wrote...

ok as far as game play wise the tier 1 avenger did in m.e.1 did 150 dam, while the avenger in m.e.2 did 10.8 dam.this means guns are now weaker and in gameplay the faster shots in m.e.2 can always be seen as opposed to the slower moving shots in m.e.1 which cant be seen at all.

Factor in the difference in defense and the bonuses the new gun have against deference like kinetic barrier and biotic shields and you'll find that the ME2 guns are stronger.
Let also, not forget the stats statedforthe Mass effect guns is not list as per shot.

Modifié par dreman9999, 18 octobre 2011 - 02:54 .

[Sgt Stryker]

Barry Bathernak wrote...

ok as far as game play wise the tier 1 avenger did in m.e.1 did 150 dam, while the avenger in m.e.2 did 10.8 dam.this means guns are now weaker and in gameplay the faster shots in m.e.2 can always be seen as opposed to the slower moving shots in m.e.1 which cant be seen at all.

Two things:

1. Arbitrary damage numbers that are derived from gameplay mechanics are meaningless in a discussion about lore. Furthermore, it makes no sense for technology to go backwards in the two years between ME1 and ME2.
2. The tracers are not the bullets in ME2. You can test this for yourself. Just load up a soldier character, hit Adrenaline Rush, and shoot at a distant wall with a pistol. You'll notice that the wall gets hit a split-second before the tracer reaches it. The tracer is misleading.

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 18 octobre 2011 - 02:55 .

[Barry Bathernak]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Barry Bathernak wrote...

ok as far as game play wise the tier 1 avenger did in m.e.1 did 150 dam, while the avenger in m.e.2 did 10.8 dam.this means guns are now weaker and in gameplay the faster shots in m.e.2 can always be seen as opposed to the slower moving shots in m.e.1 which cant be seen at all.

Two things:

1. Arbitrary damage numbers that are derived from gameplay mechanics are meaningless in a discussion about lore. Furthermore, it makes no sense for technology to go backwards in the two years between ME1 and ME2.
2. The tracers are not the bullets in ME2. You can test this for yourself. Just load up a soldier character, hit Adrenaline Rush, and shoot at a distant wall with a pistol. You'll notice that the wall gets hit a split-second before the tracer reaches it. The tracer is misleading.

1. i was talking about gameplay there.
2.no seriosly go the fire visacator at a wall you will see 3 shot get fired and 3 shots on the wall,its just how it is in m.e.2

[Barry Bathernak]

dreman9999 wrote...

Barry Bathernak wrote...

ok as far as game play wise the tier 1 avenger did in m.e.1 did 150 dam, while the avenger in m.e.2 did 10.8 dam.this means guns are now weaker and in gameplay the faster shots in m.e.2 can always be seen as opposed to the slower moving shots in m.e.1 which cant be seen at all.

Factor in the difference in defense and the bonuses the new gun have against deference like kinetic barrier and biotic shields and you'll find that the ME2 guns are stronger.
Let also, not forget the stats statedforthe Mass effect guns is not list as per shot.

1. kinetic barriers are sheilds and not everyone is a biotic,also (for sheperd atleast) armor apperently doesn't reduce damage ,as for others though it does give another bar which you would have to deplete but that still would mean these new guns cant hurt people until the sheilds are down and there armor is broken.
2.if mass effect weapon stats are not per shot then what are they?dps?max on a crit?what then since last time i checked saying a weapon does x amount means every round hits for atleast that since x=base damage, before you add other factors.so say y=final damage per shot after the other factors are added it would be...         

X+modbonus+ammobonus+ bonusfromweaponskill+buffstoweaponskill-damageresistence-sheildresistence
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bonusfromlocationofshot(if there is) • critmultipliers(if the shot crits) =Y
                                                

[Barry Bathernak]

dreman9999 wrote...

Barry Bathernak wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

No heat build-up? Watchu' talkin' 'bout, Willis? Mass Effect guns are basically man-portable rail guns. Even if there is zero friction between the barrel and the projectile (unlikely), there is still plenty of friction between the projectile and the atmosphere.

Have you taken a look at what an ejected heat sink looks like? It's a glowing orange piece of metal. If anything, this suggests that they reach temperatures of hundreds of degrees above ambient temperature. Such a material must therefore be highly UNreactive. Shooting a heat sink is likely to have the same effect as shooting any other part of a soldier's armor.

no its more like shooting the action of a gun so it breaks

Not understanding....re write please.

the action is what loads the bullet inside the gun which allow for the fireing mechinism to then prime and fire the next round,so a broken action means the guns cant load anymore i.e. broken thermal clips means no more rounds can be loades into the guns for use since the heat couldn't bbe asborbed even though the fireing mechinism works.to reiterate it would jam the gun to the point of it being broken.

[CptBomBom00]

Lets blow off some steam.

[Barry Bathernak]

CptBomBom00 wrote...

Lets blow off some steam.

cant tell if making a pun or just silly.

[BlaCKRodjj]

dreman9999 wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Wrong...wRONG AND WRONG.  They are heat sinks, just removable. Lore wise, doing what they did with guns make sense. Gameplay wise doing what tehy did with guns also makes seanse as well.

Lore wise they make no sense.  Since there's no heat buildup,  they cannot be passive cooling.  Since they must be active cooling,  they must have a power source.  Since they achieve 0 heat gain,  from a projectile moving thousands of feet per second,  it must be a very powerful heat source.

Which means that the very best tactic to use in any combat is to shoot the opponent's heat sinks,  since those things would explode like a keg of Nitroglycerin. 

Which means that the very best way to equip an army is to equip them with older weapons,  and tell them to shoot for the heat sinks,  which will take out a half-dozen or so enemy at a time.

Conversely,  we can just accept the fact that the whole concept requires you to know absolutely nothing about guns or heat sinks,  because they're so monumentally wrong. 

Gameplay wise it makes even less sense.  The whole point of ammo is limited resources,  if you drop them like candy,  resources aren't limited,  so you never actually have to care about them.  In short,  you might as well just have infinite ammo,  because that's what it is.

And don't get me started on Thermal Clips in places where no one has been since before they were invented,  or enemies who have absolutely no use for them carrying them by the dozen.

Collector:  "Hold on one minute,  I've gotta get a 6 pack of heat sinks just in case a human kills me.  Wouldn't want the poor guy to not be able to shoot his gun afterwards!"

I think you not understand how it works. If heat sinks are very explosive, then the last place it would be is in side a gun. Heat object don't explode in high contact, they are just move. Only chemically voital produce explode on contact, not heat things. If it were so, anything in intense heat would explode...Mean every some everything explodes.
You comment makes no sense at all.
Heatsinks have nothing in them that makes them explode, not even on impact.

This
Oh, and if the codex and the game tell you that heat sinks overheat, then there's passive cooling

Modifié par BlaCKRodjj, 18 octobre 2011 - 05:03 .

[dreman9999]

Barry Bathernak wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Barry Bathernak wrote...

ok as far as game play wise the tier 1 avenger did in m.e.1 did 150 dam, while the avenger in m.e.2 did 10.8 dam.this means guns are now weaker and in gameplay the faster shots in m.e.2 can always be seen as opposed to the slower moving shots in m.e.1 which cant be seen at all.

Factor in the difference in defense and the bonuses the new gun have against deference like kinetic barrier and biotic shields and you'll find that the ME2 guns are stronger.
Let also, not forget the stats statedforthe Mass effect guns is not list as per shot.

1. kinetic barriers are sheilds and not everyone is a biotic,also (for sheperd atleast) armor apperently doesn't reduce damage ,as for others though it does give another bar which you would have to deplete but that still would mean these new guns cant hurt people until the sheilds are down and there armor is broken.
2.if mass effect weapon stats are not per shot then what are they?dps?max on a crit?what then since last time i checked saying a weapon does x amount means every round hits for atleast that since x=base damage, before you add other factors.so say y=final damage per shot after the other factors are added it would be...         

X+modbonus+ammobonus+ bonusfromweaponskill+buffstoweaponskill-damageresistence-sheildresistence
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bonusfromlocationofshot(if there is) • critmultipliers(if the shot crits) =Y
                                                

1.But still in the end the guns still do more damage
2.Take a look at the shield system in ME1 andyou'll understand. If what the statement for the gun attack was per shot, then the guns would easilly take down defence in ME in a fewshots no matter the strenght in shields. If takesa while to do that in ME1. That is how damge over all if you fired it till it over heats.

[The Spamming Troll]

CptBomBom00 wrote...

Also thermal clips provide challenge that every shot must count.

yea, and how would shots that come from an overheating weapon be any different?  keep in mind NO ONE is bringing up frictionless materials and spectre weapons. so how are TC bullets more special then overheat bullets?

and your ammo in ME2 is almost as unlimited as it is in ME1. i mean have you ever run out of ammo in ME2 anyways?

also, dreman9999, you are wrong about everything. but your already aware i think that. i could literally reply to all your posts with "wtf are you talking about?"

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 18 octobre 2011 - 05:47 .

[Barry Bathernak]

dreman9999 wrote...

Barry Bathernak wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Barry Bathernak wrote...

ok as far as game play wise the tier 1 avenger did in m.e.1 did 150 dam, while the avenger in m.e.2 did 10.8 dam.this means guns are now weaker and in gameplay the faster shots in m.e.2 can always be seen as opposed to the slower moving shots in m.e.1 which cant be seen at all.

Factor in the difference in defense and the bonuses the new gun have against deference like kinetic barrier and biotic shields and you'll find that the ME2 guns are stronger.
Let also, not forget the stats statedforthe Mass effect guns is not list as per shot.

1. kinetic barriers are sheilds and not everyone is a biotic,also (for sheperd atleast) armor apperently doesn't reduce damage ,as for others though it does give another bar which you would have to deplete but that still would mean these new guns cant hurt people until the sheilds are down and there armor is broken.
2.if mass effect weapon stats are not per shot then what are they?dps?max on a crit?what then since last time i checked saying a weapon does x amount means every round hits for atleast that since x=base damage, before you add other factors.so say y=final damage per shot after the other factors are added it would be...         

X+modbonus+ammobonus+ bonusfromweaponskill+buffstoweaponskill-damageresistence-sheildresistence
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bonusfromlocationofshot(if there is) • critmultipliers(if the shot crits) =Y
                                                

1.But still in the end the guns still do more damage
2.Take a look at the shield system in ME1 andyou'll understand. If what the statement for the gun attack was per shot, then the guns would easilly take down defence in ME in a fewshots no matter the strenght in shields. If takesa while to do that in ME1. That is how damge over all if you fired it till it over heats.

1.sheild strength≠sheild resistence.sheild strength = the health of the sheild before it is depleted,while sheild resistence is how much it reduces's the attack before caculating how much sheild strength is left.plus when your sheilds are hit hit it still would factor in the resistence from your armor and the sheild resistence is still active even when your sheilds are down only with a slight debuff to it.
2.how are the weaker weapons doing more damage?

[Fhaileas]

no point except to make Me more GoW like.

[Barry Bathernak]

Fhaileas wrote...

no point except to make Me more GoW like.

ooh when i played the demo at comic-con there was an eye thing with a y above which let you look at something that was happening.

[Sajuro]

Fhaileas wrote...

no point except to make Me more GoW like.

In my honest opinion, I fail to see how that's a bad thing.

[capn233]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

capn233 wrote...

As far as Mass Effect guns, they aren't technically rail guns since they don't have a projectile forming a contact between two rails and propelled by a magnetic field. They are mass accelerators that use mass effect fields.

This is actually a little inaccurate. Read the Primary Codex entries on Small Arms and Mass Accelerators again. The projectiles are accelerated by electromagnetic attraction/repulsion. The mass effect field is just there to allow higher velocities while minimizing recoil.

There is nothing in the codex about the projectiles closing the circuit between two rails and producing the magnetic field that then propels them, which is what I was commenting on.  That is the defining characteristic of a rail gun, not the magnetic field.  ME guns are somewhere in the realm of electromagnetic mass drivers, but sound more like a coil gun than a rail gun, or perhaps something else entirely, since the projectiles are suspended within the mass reducing field with no mention of riding rails.  At any rate, I suppose they are vague enough that it is possible.

I suppose I should have written mass driver that incorporates mass effect fields for sake of clarity.

Modifié par capn233, 18 octobre 2011 - 10:36 .

[Barry Bathernak]

Sajuro wrote...

Fhaileas wrote...

no point except to make Me more GoW like.

In my honest opinion, I fail to see how that's a bad thing.

yea cause we all want to play games that are nothing more then copies.

[DialupToaster]

I'm going to ask why an overheat system requires thought when all I ever used was an assault rifle and immunity to win.

W + M1 + immunity = easy street for all difficulties.

[CAPSLOCK FURY]

randomchasegurney wrote...

I'm going to ask why an overheat system requires thought when all I ever used was an assault rifle and immunity to win.

W + M1 + immunity = easy street for all difficulties.

For real. Once my Shocktrooper got most of his points filled in, he didn't even need cover. The only thing that had a prayer were threshers, and they barely had one.

[Fhaileas]

I’m all for gameplay changes, but when you egregiously nerf the capabilities of weapons you better have a more reasonable story excuse than the one provided.

Especially when every gun in the galaxy now uses the thermal clip system exclusively, and no-one thinks to carry a backup old-model gun in case they run out.

Especially when even the guns on a ship that crashed and was inncommunicado for over a decade are using the new system.

Especially when every race in the galaxy has made the switch, even the ones that HATE the other ones. Even the ones, like the Quarians, whose whole schtick is re-using and optimising old technology because they can’t afford or make new stuff.

Now, the thermal clip thing could have worked as an ADDITION to the old system just fine. You deliberately overheat your weapon in order to make a few extra shots at a crucial moment. But you have a couple of spare heat sinks, so you just pop one out and keep firing.

This is one of those things that really bothered me. It was a clunky, ham-handed retcon to the entire galaxy that made the whole thing far less efficient than it had been.

Additionally, the infinite ammo heat management thing was one of the things that set Mass Effect apart and helped define it as a setting. I don’t know how realistic the idea was, but it added to the feel of the universe, but Mass Effect 2 is just generic sci-fi gunplay.

[Il Divo]

Sajuro wrote...

In my honest opinion, I fail to see how that's a bad thing.

I gotta go with this. Nothing about weapons overloading struck me as special or unique. That's not why I was playing Mass Effect in the first place.

[Zakatak757]

You guys do realize not everyone in ME2 is using thermal clips, right? Notice how maybe 1/3rd of the enemies you kill drop thermal clips? The old system hasn't been completely replaced, but Cerberus wants you to use the thermal clip compatible weapons.

[Computer_God91]

Bluko wrote...

I still don't buy this story. Some random gameplay programmer happens to think adding "ammo" is a great idea and despite the fact that Casey and Preston are both against it at first, they manage to turn the other cheek? Look I've played my fair share of shooters and the way ammo is implemented in this game does not impress me in the least.

No I think the real story is much different and that the idea of Thermal Clips came from a different source. But I have no evidence to support this other then my own beliefs so I won't waste anyone's time.


I probably would take a lot less issue with Thermal Clips if they had simply called it ammo to begin with, because Thermal Clips are indeed ammo. I honestly don't think I would have had a single second thought had guns in ME2 simply actually used Ammo Blocks. But Thermal Clips are just a laughable cover up. Seriously who would go from guns with near infinite ammo to finite ammo? Nobody. The idea that it's a step forward technologically speaking is preposterous.

Seriously there's so much flawed with Thermal Clips I don't even know to begin.

For starters: Why aren't they reusable in any capacity?
(Yay let's leave magazines/shell casings all over the place to give ourselves away!)

How do you preserve the individual "shots" from a Thermal Clip that was in use? 
(Hint: It's not possible. In modern shooters this is somewhat excusable as you can refill a magazine with individual bullets. You cannot reuse part of an overheated thing unless it cooled down enough to be reused entirely.) 

Every gun is really capable of using a universal clip?
(Gee good thing all that heat can be directed into something that's only an inch long and 1-2cm in diameter. I'm sure weapons would just melt otherwise.)

Why can't guns be fired if you're out of Thermal Clips?
(So if you use Thermal Clips your gun becomes utterly useless if you run out? Yeah that's so smart weapon design there I tell ya.)

Why can't I allocate all my Thermal Clips towards the weapon I'm using? Why must Shepard always evenly stockpile everything?
(What if I just wanna use my AR most of the time?)

How come enemies and squadmates never run out of Thermal Clips?


The sad thing the answer to all these questions: Herp derp Gameplay!

The overheating mechanic is too hard for your average gamer's mind to comprehend! You need to give them an exact bullet count so they can know exactly how many times to shoot since keeping an eye on heat gauage is so much worse! It also lets them reload whenever they want greatly reducing any risk they could incur during firefights. Ideas like burst fire, controlling your rate of fire, LOL what's that? Professional soldiers just unload like this until they need to reload!



(Don't worry there's no confirmation of Ducks/Geth Hoppers in ME3 at this time. So everything should be pretty easy for you to shoot.)


Now I know some of you are going to say: Well ME1 was broken cause of Frictionless Materials and Spectre Weapons! Therefore overheating sucks!

Yes indeed Frictionless Materials were broken in the context that you could fire your weapon with little to no heat build up. Solution? Remove Frictionless Materials/Heat Sinks maybe.


Nah it's a far better idea to scrap the entire system on the basis that one of the weapons mod is broken. I mean come on...

As for Spectre Weapons they were intentionally made to be "Overpowered" so you could plow through the end game faster as a reward for getting that far. (You know that simple idea that gaining XP in a RPG eventually makes you more proficient...) Yeah go figure using Spectre Weapons in NG+ makes the rest of the game pretty easy!


When I ask for an overheat system I am asking for it to be implemented with the otherwise improved gameplay aspects of ME2.

I am not asking for:
-An exact return of ME1 gun gameplay
-Frictonless mods that let you fire forever
-Spraying and praying
-Lots of generic weapons

I am simply asking the ME2 guns use an overheat meter instead of relying of a fixed supply of Thermal Clips.

Seriously what does picking up Thermal Clips add to the game in terms of enjoyment? Is it that amazingly fun to pick up orange glowing objects?

Some say it adds to the Challenge. The Challenge should come from the games A.I. If the Devs don't want you to camp behind cover then the onus should be on them to creat A.I. that attempts to flank and or flush you out of cover. (Like with grenades...) Having ammo randomly lying around is not a real good incentive for forcing the player to move because it's completely stupid to get yourself shot up just so you can "shoot some more".

Nervemind the fact that certain weapons in ME2 are almost never at risk of running out of ammo (SMGs and ARs) where as others are only good for killing a handful of enemies before you must look for clips. How is this well balanced? If the game was truly balanced all the weapons would be roughly capable of killing the same of enemies and resupply at an equivalent rate. This is not the case at all ME2. What you have is a clear case of certain weapons being the "end all" and the others more or less novelties.


Anyways since it seems were stuck with Thermal Clips I must insist they at least be somewhat improved upon going into ME3. (My issue with Thermal Clips is I simply do not find them enjoyable. They did not make the game "too hard" for me or any such thing. Cause honestlyly I found ME2 a much more easy to game to play. I mean I sure died a lot less then I did in ME1. It would be more correct to say I think Thermal Clips make Mass Effect "too easy".)

If Thermal Clips are to be in ME3 I'd ask...

1)That actually  they be universally used between weapons 
2) That once you eject a clip you cannot make any use of it's remaing shots

So something like this:



If you are truly serious about Thermal Clips adding "tension" to the battle then making every Thermal Clip valuable should only be a boon to the game experience. Of course if your only interest is to have a very easy-to-play TPS then by all means leave Thermal Clips exactly as they are. We wouldn't want any teenagers to find the game too difficult (never mind the fact it's made for adults to begin with...) and rage quit now would we? 

For you TL:DR people. Go ahead and read that.

Modifié par Computer_God91, 19 octobre 2011 - 03:17 .

[Staminoo]

I signed up on this forum just because I've been praying constantly every day since I beat ME2 that the thermal clips system won't be in ME3. Typical FPS style tactical reloads were something I was very happy not to have to do in ME1. It's just the biggest bummer in history. I love not having to hit a button and "click click clackity clack" whenever I fire off a few rounds.

This coming from a guy that enjoyed mining and didn't even realize the ship upgrades I bought made a storyline difference during the final mission of ME2. I love ME2 but thermal clips don't make any sense and they aren't an enjoyable aspect of game play.

Is there any chance of this being changed at this point in development, or are we screwed?

Modifié par Staminoo, 19 octobre 2011 - 06:34 .