188 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

SNascimento wrote...
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How is it not her fault? You in a planet controled by the Geth, so you have to go under cover. But you are spotted. How can this not be your fault?
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And I agree what really matters in the end is getting the job done, but does she? It's really not up to Tali succeeding or not in those missions, it's up to Shepard. In Freedon's Progress you decide if she get Victor or not and in Haestrom she only gets out of there if you go rescue her, which you can not do.
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We can easily nail three facts in this debate:
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1) There are two missions that Tali is in charge, Freedon's Progess and Haestrom. In both she doesn't control the outcome. (Shepard does)

2) Miranda and The Shadow Broker make remarks how Tali is a lesser leader.

3) She can't lead a group in the SM.
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So, if you really are a Tali's fan, the better you can do is say she is a ok leader, but she is nothing close to Garrus or Miranda, for exemple. 
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And I'm trying to make a point here that this isn't about Tali as an individual, but about the Quarians as a race. When was the last major fight they had in land? When did we see a good Quarian operative? They just don't have the resources to be effective outside the Migrant Fleet.

First off. Miranda? A good leader? HA! The only reason she's so hard to kill on the SM is because she happens to have certain dialogues at certain points. That tramp didn't even attempt to help anyone aboard the Lazarus station and decided to jump ship the first chance she got. I won't even listen to what she has to say, because it's usually idiotic slur that's not helping anyone but herself.

I'd take Garrus over her any day. At least he had some good qualities when it comes to be a leader.

Second off, there are so many better races one can use on the ground than the quarians, like the krogans.

The quarians can be useful to have as mechanics (Tali and other quarians have proved this) or suppliers and not just as frontal attackers.

It's stupid to charge the enemy head on like another Leroy Jenkins when there are much better options.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 18 octobre 2011 - 11:06 .

[SNascimento]

Someone With Mass wrote...

First off. Miranda? A good leader? HA! The only reason she's so hard to kill on the SM is because she happens to have certain dialogues at certain points. That tramp didn't even attempt to help anyone aboard the Lazarus station and decided to jump ship the first chance she got. I won't even listen to what she has to say, because it's usually idiotic slur that's not helping anyone but herself.

I'd take Garrus over her any day. At least he had some good qualities when it comes to be a leader.

Second off, there are so many better races one can use on the ground than the quarians, like the krogans.

The quarians can be useful to have as mechanics (Tali and other quarians have proved this) or suppliers and not just as frontal attackers.

It's stupid to charge the enemy head on like another Leroy Jenkins when there are much better options.

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You missed almost all points I made.
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Anyway, Miranda is ruthless, there is no point in denying that, but she knows how to get the job done. She was the head of the Lazarus project, and it was a sucess. And Garrus is a great leader, but he did get all he squad killed. No matter what, both are better leaders than any quarian. 
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And it's funny that you don't listen to Miranda because you don't like her, that a great argument. If only the Shadow Broker had not said the same thing... 
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And the other thing you said you just agreed with me that the Quarians wouldn't be the first choice for a ground assault (more likely the last). They do have other uses though.

[DoNotIngest]

SNascimento wrote...
Anyway, Miranda is ruthless, there is no point in denying that, but she knows how to get the job done. She was the head of the Lazarus project, and it was a sucess. And Garrus is a great leader, but he did get all he squad killed. No matter what, both are better leaders than any quarian. 

Ah, yes. Because you've totally seen a good amount of Quarians get a chance at leadership, not just Tali commanding some undisciplined mooks and a suicidal joint op between Tali and Kal as appointed by the Quarian Admiralty.



Oh, and his name's Veetor. Not Victor. Quite astute. I'd go through your other descrepensies, but I've long ago learned that any Quarian/Tali related thread on the BSN has a devoted (lifeless) troll-following. So out I go.

[Nashiktal]

SNascimento wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Reagar seems to have been handling the military side of things on Haestrom, so blame him not Tali. Frankly, a pretty big chunk of the major characters have had all or almost all the people under their command killed - SS Shepard, Miranda and Jacob at the Lazarus Project, Ashley on Eden Prime, Garrus on Omega, Zaeed everywhere.

Even if Tali was in charge over the military squad on Haestrom (which would be odd, seeing how she was doing all the scientific readings and would be rather busy with those) the geth spotting them was simply out of their control and not their fault at all.

It's like saying that the Collector attack on the SSV Normandy was Shepard's/Joker's fault.

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So, the Geth showing up in a planet under their control is unexpected? I don't think so. And in a operation, you blame who is in charge.
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But I do agree that there are some things that are out of contro. This, and Freedom Progress were not this kind of situation though. 
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I think Tali in a battlefield situation reflects the Quarians perfectly, they just don't have the resources to get the job done. 

 The geth don't have anybody on the planet, they don't even live on planets in general, couple that with the geth only doing sporatic sweeps, add the fact that haestrom blocks most electrons and halts all communication... Yeah COMPLETELY UNEXPECTED.  They had a PLATOON of KILLING MACHINES fall from the sky, (remember they couldn't detect them because of haestroms sun) attack the SCIENCE TEAM (plus a small security team) and forced them out of their original camp.

And you want to know something? Despite being attacked by a platoon of geth, Tali kept her mind on the job, despite everyone dying around her she still focused on her mission to get the data. Reegar had HIS marines (remember they were sworn to protect her, she didn't lead them) get her through a PLATOON of geth into the observatory for the data she needed.

Haestrom is actually PROOF of quarian competency!

As for freedoms progress, Tali had prazza (and by extension HIS squad) not listen to her. That happens to shep all the time, does that make him a bad leader? Tali took her squad and took care of the survivors of prazza's squad while sheps team took on the mech. Things went fubar, but its not tali's fault that prazza refused to listen to her. It was a basic search party meant to find a stray quarian, instead her search group gets attacked by military grade mechs, and encounters CERBERUS. Its led by shep, so she trusts him but prazza and his group refused to trust him.

Don't get me started on the other squadmates who get people killed or slaughtered and get away without any criticism. (Miranda lost an entire station to one extremely wimpy man for crying out loud, one man shouldn't be able to hack an entire stations security network then again it is cerberus...)

I can agree she wouldn't make a good admiral (god knows she doesnt have the experience for it) but
I disagree that ME2 has shown her to be a bad leader, she either wasn't
even responsible in the first place, or circumnstances undermined her. (Udina locked down shep when he thought s/he was acting insane, Prazza went off on his own when he thought Tali was acting insane.)

Modifié par Nashiktal, 19 octobre 2011 - 12:56 .

[beekay28]

Prince Zeel wrote...

Why the hell would Shepard need a bunch of flimsy Quarians to fight the Reapers. I thought we needed allies not liabilities.

LOL!

Cannon fodder mate, we need someone to soak up some fire!

[Nashiktal]

beekay28 wrote...

Prince Zeel wrote...

Why the hell would Shepard need a bunch of flimsy Quarians to fight the Reapers. I thought we needed allies not liabilities.

LOL!

Cannon fodder mate, we need someone to soak up some fire!

In which case use the geth. When a geth dies, their conscioucness (like the cylons) gets uploaded into the nearest node, (which has extreme range, can apparently transmit into different systems)

For a fun fact, that is exactly what legion tries to do if he dies. Unfortunately the center of the galaxy surrounded by black holes is just a tad out of range for him.

Geth are the perfect fodder. Large in number, can be repaired on the field, platforms can be constructed as needed, knows no fear, can follow instructions with no error, you get the point.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 19 octobre 2011 - 02:31 .

[yuncas]

tobynator89 wrote...

Ever heard of this little thing?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nortraship

apply that concept to the quarian navy and we have a gamechanger on our hands.

Quarians as a merchant marine force is the best idea I've heard in a long while. And they've gotta have some sort of dedicated warships that can serve as escorts. Excellent idea.

I honestly don't think I'd have come up with that idea. To me 50,000 ships=50,000 guns. Way to think outside the box me.

Modifié par yuncas, 19 octobre 2011 - 04:51 .

[yuncas]

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Modifié par yuncas, 19 octobre 2011 - 04:52 .

[The Spamming Troll]

actally the idea of turning the ricketty quarian ships into a merchant marine force would be awesome. not just a simple way to get the quarians involved, but the thought of micro managing how to win the war would be interesting. maybe thats exactly what galactic redyness is all about. thinking of ways to use everything.

maybe the vollus can do all the desk work. except for niftu cal ofcorse, hes gonna be on sheps crew.

[SNascimento]

Nashiktal wrote...

The geth don't have anybody on the planet, they don't even live on planets in general, couple that with the geth only doing sporatic sweeps, add the fact that haestrom blocks most electrons and halts all communication... Yeah COMPLETELY UNEXPECTED.  They had a PLATOON of KILLING MACHINES fall from the sky, (remember they couldn't detect them because of haestroms sun) attack the SCIENCE TEAM (plus a small security team) and forced them out of their original camp.

And you want to know something? Despite being attacked by a platoon of geth, Tali kept her mind on the job, despite everyone dying around her she still focused on her mission to get the data. Reegar had HIS marines (remember they were sworn to protect her, she didn't lead them) get her through a PLATOON of geth into the observatory for the data she needed.

Haestrom is actually PROOF of quarian competency!

As for freedoms progress, Tali had prazza (and by extension HIS squad) not listen to her. That happens to shep all the time, does that make him a bad leader? Tali took her squad and took care of the survivors of prazza's squad while sheps team took on the mech. Things went fubar, but its not tali's fault that prazza refused to listen to her. It was a basic search party meant to find a stray quarian, instead her search group gets attacked by military grade mechs, and encounters CERBERUS. Its led by shep, so she trusts him but prazza and his group refused to trust him.

Don't get me started on the other squadmates who get people killed or slaughtered and get away without any criticism. (Miranda lost an entire station to one extremely wimpy man for crying out loud, one man shouldn't be able to hack an entire stations security network then again it is cerberus...)

I can agree she wouldn't make a good admiral (god knows she doesnt have the experience for it) but
I disagree that ME2 has shown her to be a bad leader, she either wasn't
even responsible in the first place, or circumnstances undermined her. (Udina locked down shep when he thought s/he was acting insane, Prazza went off on his own when he thought Tali was acting insane.)

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So you're basically staying in the "it's not her fault" argument? Saying that being spotted by the enemy in enemy territory is ok and having people under your commmand disobeying orders is no big deal. Well, ok then. The facts are there though.
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But saying Haestrom is proof of the quarians competence is a little to much, no? You should be aware that the mission is only a sucess if Shepard intervene, as I already said.

[Not the Droid]

"and having people under your commmand disobeying orders is no big deal. Well, ok then. The facts are there though"

Hehe did we play the same games People on my crew have been disobeying orders since me 1 heh. Reamber the whole lockdown thing err ok well maybe you do not

Taking the easy baiting aside though almost eveyrone in the game is not telling you everthing (really its odd) would not surprise me if the fleet is in much better repair than thought. Though i admit I like em in general

[LegionMan]

 I can't be the only person who thought they had said 'the whole Turian fleet' - given how the Turian Hierarchy is incredibly militarized - can I?

[Spartanburger]

I think Legion explains it well enough:

"no data available"

We have not seen real combat for Quarian militaries. We have only seen very unique circumstances that are far from the norm.
You would not create a statistical model from outliers alone.


Imagine this: You are an alien and you want to know how our Human music is like.
You enter a church and hear choir music. You borrow a friends imusicplayer (now roughly 50Tb of music in the size of a human hair) and listen to calming music (like stuff from Carbon Based Lifeforms).

You might make the conclusion that all Human music is much like those two examples. And you'd be wrong as Human music spans a gargantuan span of styles, instruments, genres, ect ect.

Such is it with the military capabilities of the Quarian people. We've only really seen two examples of it, both are in unusual circumstances, one with a flawed command structure (Prazza) and one with extremely difficult parameters (Sun radiation, lack of equipment and communication, surprise attack, outnumbered and the list goes on.)
We cannot base the entire military capability of a society that is 17 million (and 50,000 ship) strong on two unique covert operations.

[Nashiktal]

SNascimento wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

The geth don't have anybody on the planet, they don't even live on planets in general, couple that with the geth only doing sporatic sweeps, add the fact that haestrom blocks most electrons and halts all communication... Yeah COMPLETELY UNEXPECTED.  They had a PLATOON of KILLING MACHINES fall from the sky, (remember they couldn't detect them because of haestroms sun) attack the SCIENCE TEAM (plus a small security team) and forced them out of their original camp.

And you want to know something? Despite being attacked by a platoon of geth, Tali kept her mind on the job, despite everyone dying around her she still focused on her mission to get the data. Reegar had HIS marines (remember they were sworn to protect her, she didn't lead them) get her through a PLATOON of geth into the observatory for the data she needed.

Haestrom is actually PROOF of quarian competency!

As for freedoms progress, Tali had prazza (and by extension HIS squad) not listen to her. That happens to shep all the time, does that make him a bad leader? Tali took her squad and took care of the survivors of prazza's squad while sheps team took on the mech. Things went fubar, but its not tali's fault that prazza refused to listen to her. It was a basic search party meant to find a stray quarian, instead her search group gets attacked by military grade mechs, and encounters CERBERUS. Its led by shep, so she trusts him but prazza and his group refused to trust him.

Don't get me started on the other squadmates who get people killed or slaughtered and get away without any criticism. (Miranda lost an entire station to one extremely wimpy man for crying out loud, one man shouldn't be able to hack an entire stations security network then again it is cerberus...)

I can agree she wouldn't make a good admiral (god knows she doesnt have the experience for it) but
I disagree that ME2 has shown her to be a bad leader, she either wasn't
even responsible in the first place, or circumnstances undermined her. (Udina locked down shep when he thought s/he was acting insane, Prazza went off on his own when he thought Tali was acting insane.)

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So you're basically staying in the "it's not her fault" argument? Saying that being spotted by the enemy in enemy territory is ok and having people under your commmand disobeying orders is no big deal. Well, ok then. The facts are there though.
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But saying Haestrom is proof of the quarians competence is a little to much, no? You should be aware that the mission is only a sucess if Shepard intervene, as I already said.

Can you control being spotted by the enemy? Especially on a planet where geth do not reside and electronic equipment do not work? How do you prevent that? Especially when you can not tell when or how the geth see you. By the time you know the geth are there... They are already bombing you and dropping troops right on your position.  You still havn't told me how Haestrom is Tali's fault though.

And no, people not listening to you is ok. Good thing she isn't a military officer, and that wasn't a military operation. Although if you had read my post instead of crafting a strawman argument I think we could discuss it.

And yes the mission would only have succeeded if shep was there, but what again did you not read? A small science team, with a small security escort held out and fought against a platoon of geth. If bodies are to be believed, two quarian soldiers got Tali to a reinforced observatory (which was the mission, get the data) alive. I think considering the circumnstances the quarians did pretty damn well for a species not suited for ground combat in the first place.

Especially when the enemy are perfect killing machines.

And like I said, I don't want tali leading any assaults or anything, I know she doesn't have the experience for it, but the arguments brought against her just don't hold water to me. Which once again, if you would respond to my points instead of ignoring them we could have a debate here.