139 réponses à ce sujet

[silentassassin264]

I guess I should visit the Dragon Age boards more so I could have ranted here earlier.  Better late than never, here goes...

The DLC in Legacy and MotA were indeed an improvement from the main game but that does not change what pissed me off the most about DA2.  The waves, streamlining, awesome button stuff, repeated backgrounds, etc. that annoyed me but it wasn't what broke the game for me.  The DLC had the advantage of being sidequest that had nothing to do with the main quest leaving the story in them to be actually enjoyable.  The main quest however made me want to kill small animals. 

I skimmed through some of the Templar vs. Mage threads before DA2 came out but I only bothered to post in one of them.  Oddly enough David Gaider decided to debate me in my one time joining in a mage vs. templar thread.  I supported the mages although in actuality I am rather neutral on the subject.  Gaider supported the templars.  Gaider's argument was...less than compelling and he ignored practically every counter point.  I figured he really loved his templars and was put that "debate" out of my mind.  Unfortunately it resurfaced in my memory as I finished the game.

DA2 had one choice in the game that mattered with the story, choosing the Templars or the mages.  The problem was that this was not one of the grey and gray choices of Dragon Age: Origins where say Bhelen and Harrowmont each had there positives and negatives or even picking the templars or mages in Broken Circle.  DA2 goes out of its way to make it black and white, Templars are good and mages are chaos (also evil).  Practically every mage you run into in the game is either outright psychotically evil or are displayed in a way to hammer it in they even the most well intentioned mage was a hazard to themselves and everyone around them.  Case in point, in Merrill's questline she does absolutely nothing wrong.  She takes all the proper precautions and is very responsible.  It still ends with the game blaming her and she even breaks down and blames herself when she did absolutely nothing wrong.  In addition we All that Remains as a slap to face if you were still supporting mages just because they could.  In the end if you side with the mages, it comes up again as you find out your fellow freedom fighter was just as power crazy slits wrists and dance under the moon as the rest of the psycho mages in the game.  And the final sucker punch is that you get absolutely nothing for siding with the mages.  If you side with the Templars you get to be Viscount.  Side with the mages and you become a fugitive and have to run for your life again despite defeating the leader of the Templars and as Champion you are the leader of the nobility in Kirkwall (and unless you were intentionally doing a minimalist run, you probably have enough firepower to kill all the templars if they don't submit alright anyway).  In other words, you have one choice to make in the story and it is already made for you and if you do the "I reject your reality" choice the game goes out of its way to say you chose poorly. 

If you treat the DLC as sidequests as they should be, they are most defintely and improvement from the vanilla game.  I expected to be breaking into castles (with Isabela rather than Felicia Day) and getting lost treasure or finding some ancient elven artifacts/magic and whatnot with Merrill.  And of course I expected something in game like Legacy to explain why the team decided to go with the new Hawke character.  The first problem with this is that the DLC missions were not in the game in the first place.  The second part is that they do not remedy the largest problem with the game, namely the gigantic effing bias towards the Templar side in the game that is supposed to be about mages versus templars.  Seriously only one templar in the game (Alrik) was portrayed to be alright evil compared to all the blood mages and demon summoning and what have you.  

In conclusion, while I appreciate the additions they have not won me over for DA3 because they do not negate the travesty that was done in game.  I play Bioware game for the story and it allowing me to create awesome characters to interact in an awesome world.  When you troll me like how the story in DA2 turned out it does not inspire confidence.  I was willing to ignore all those "streamlining" things that people were getting all bent out of shape about because it was a Bioware game and I expected a top notch story and storytelling.  Instead I got "Mages are bad" shoved down my throat for hours.

[Mr Arg]

Wow, I had no idea the dlc had this many improvements over the original game. I might just buy them...

[miltos33]

I must say that I feel exactly the same with the OP. I don't think that I could've said it any better myself.

[StingingVelvet]

Addai67 wrote...
Agreed.  OP, I'm sort of confused at how your reaction could be so different to mine.  Legacy was neutral, but MoTA reinforced my feeling that the franchise is off the rails and just not my game anymore.  The fact that they employed minimally creative standards in level design and gameplay variety is an improvement over the base game, but hardly something to crow about.  That's giving credit for something that should have been there in the first place.

Like I said, my main issues with DA2 were: poorly designed and reused environments, lack of choices with consequences, trash mob enemies and waves, no companion equipment and misleading dialogue paraphrasing.

The DLC fixes 2 out of 5 and makes great strides toward fixing another.  That is a damn good sign, and shows they are listening.  With the rumor already being that companion armor will return, that leaves only one last flaw on my list.  I can deal with one flaw, so DA3 becomes a purchase once more (at least until we know more).

I was not someone who hated everything about DA2.  I thought the faster combat and animations were great, I thought the new art style was lovely and the writing, as always, was very good.  I was more let down by flaws than disgusted by the game itself.

[Rawgrim]

The DLC`s did improve certain elements - deffinatly. But those improvements arein the dlc`s, not improvements of the game itself. Still, its a good sign.

[The_11thDoctor]

silentassassin264 wrote...

 I got "Mages are bad" shoved down my throat for hours.

That was the thing that also bothered me in DA2. I love mages and in DA2 even I felt like the mages just took a crap in my face! It totally erased the coolness of mages in DAO, in all the lore, all the books, etc. It was like, "No matter what, all mages are bad and will slit there wrist at a moments notice for no reason if they see trouble coming", even though a mage could level a town without trying, but chooses not to. That was a another thing with all the hundreds of things wrong in DA2. I might get DA3 if I see a HUGE improvement when they demo it whenever it comes out. The dlc is better quality than DA2 altogether, but still has flaws. It makes me think they actually put in some effort for the DLC, but that effort should have went into the main game honestly. To sell a RPG with 3 maps that get recycled the whole game should be illegal along with not play testing the game. I dont think Bioware test any of their games and it became even more apparent in DA2. They somehow convinced me to buy Legacy and it sort of wiped off some of the crap they smired on my chest, but Im not even 50% in on getting DA3. Sadly I love the lore and want them to make a great game to go with the story, but when the fighting improves, but the game and story worsen the 2nd game, it doesnt help your confidence in the company. They're the only WRPG company I pay attention to, but they're making all the wrong moves making me reconfirm that JRPG companies are the only ones I should pay attention to.

[MKDAWUSS]

While the DLC's are certainly an improvement, it hasn't quite placed DA3 on pre-order just yet. It's off life support for me ATM, however.

[Realmzmaster]

DA3 was already a must buy for me since I liked DA2. The DLCs just reinforce that position.

[SkittlesKat96]

David Gaider wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...
If you don't mind my asking, what are the chances of DA2 getting an Awakening-sized expansion at some point in the foreseeable future?

Sorry, but there's no point in asking. Even if we were planning such a thing, I (or anyone else at BioWare) wouldn't be permitted to discuss it prior to an official announcement. This is the way public companies work.

Can you tell us what Flemeth really is?

lol I jest... 

[Uccio]

Nope, still not convinced. Got to wait and see some reviews. I don´t want to reshock myself again like with DA2.

[ReiSilver]

@silentassassin264
There are mages who don't do anything wrong, it's just that since -mage- is so easily pointed out when they attack you it's a lot easier to remember those ones. Not to mention most of the 'well behaved' mages in Kirkwall are locked in The Gallows so of coarse you never see them! They're prisoners, they don't get out for social calls, but you do see the girl escaping in Anders Act 2 quest, the nobles son who just wants to get out and kiss a girl, if Hawke doesn't screw him over along the way Feynriel is saving people from half a continent away with his dreamer powers, there's alchemist in the Gallows, a mage shop keeper on the wounded coast etc.
The Templars are hardly spotless aside from Alrick, Cullen talks about having 'divine right' over people with magic and how they aren't people, Alain talks about Sir Kerras (if you don't kill him in act 1) 'visiting him at night', mages in the Gallows courtyard fear they'll be beaten -just for speaking to you-, if you side with the Templars in act 3 you get access to a quest where one of the lead Templars advocates killing innocent mages and non mages alike and you see the order trying to take over civilian guard command, and with Merridith stopping the election of a new Viscount effectively out-stepping their jurisdiction and taking over the city. And to top it all off there are torture implements (including about -six- iron maidens) in the inner Gallows courtyard where you make your 'last stand' in the mage siding end game.
I had to make a Hawke specifically for a templar run through because I couldn't see siding against the mages unless the Hawke I was playing ALREADY massively biased against them to start with.

I'd also like to point out that plenty of 'mundane' characters attack Hawke and his friends but no one goes on and on about how all of them should be locked up/killed/not trusted ever....

As for becoming Viscount I never saw that as a 'reward' to the player. Much like being Champion the player gets no taste of that power, and as Viscount they can do nothing with their position of authority because it happens after that game ends. Mage-sympathetic Hawke ends up on the run because that's how Thedas works, not because the writers are punishing you, it's a cause and effect of the universe you are playing in.
Personally by act 3 it was so apparent that Kiwkwall was the Thedas equivalent of Silent Hill or Innsmouth; filled with monsters and slowly turning everyone who lives there crazy, I couldn't wait for my Hawke and his buddies to get out of that place.

Modifié par ReiSilver, 22 novembre 2011 - 01:58 .

[Toroi]

I rather enjoyed DA2, despite its many flaws. By the end, the reused areas and wave combat kind of drives you nuts, but I preferred the faster combat. I could never handle playing a 2-handed warrior in origins, but its decently fun in DA2, for example.

I don't know that what I've heard so far makes DA3 a must-buy, however - more like a probably buy. Where all the dragon age games have left me wanting is the ending. I never could force myself to buy Awakenings, for example, because it just doesn't satisfy. DA2 also has that issue. It just leaves things hanging and then you will move on to DA3 with a totally new character and then you have your Warden and Hawke hanging out in the ether somewhere and you never know what happens to them.

I'd like an epic ending for a change, where the story for your character comes to some sort of satisfying conclusion, not some vague vanished mysteriously never to be heard from again. That'll probably be the key point for me in relation to buying any DA3 or even expansions to DA2. Just a bit tired of the cop out ending "couldn't think of anything good, so lets have the hero vanish mysteriously."

[Marvin_Arnold]

Regarding mages vs. templars, I'm very surprised (about people claiming the game has a "pro templar agenda").

With my first playthrough, I felt pushed to side with the mages from the beginning (with both a sister, father, and an "old friend" from Awakening as apostates, then with the Tranquility quest.) By then, I was firmly anti-templar and nothing did convince me otherwise.

I'm currenty trying to play a pro-templar playthrough, and again I feel manipulated the same way against the templars again. ("Oh, but you're from Ferelden! Of COURSE things are different there! The templars over here are butchers! They lobotomize mages for coming late to dinner!!" – "Nah, it's the Gallows for you, young man. You'll love it there. Lots of big templar men with big swords. They also have pretty sun stencils for your forehead.") It really takes effort for me to side with the templars, and I find the game very manipulative in the opposite direction.

Strange how it works.


OK, back to the OP: It shows that, given enough time, the Bioware team can still create good content. When they're rushed, the game becomes frustrating. I'm on my second playthrough and I keep thinking what could have been made of the game with more time, love, and attention to detail.

Detail. That's what makes an RPG. The world must ooze with content and information. DA2 was the barest of bones. (Maybe some day we'll get an "Anniversary Deluxe Edition" with all the content and richness missing from the original. Hey, I'd be happy with a proper PC version...)

I pray to the Maker, Creators, and Ancestors that EA has learnt their lesson and they'll let Bioware take enough time with DA3... I'm ready to wait!

Modifié par Marvin_Arnold, 22 novembre 2011 - 11:19 .

[puppy maclove]

Short answer ...NO. The major issues and concerns that have been beaten to death are still not addressed but to be fair they can't really be dealt with through DLC.

The DLC's while ok on their own are just some more disconnected quests.

I look forward to DA3 because I think (really hope) Bioware will deliver a great game, for the sake of the series & themselves they have to!!!!

So please Bioware, forget button awesome, the marketing BS, multiplayer and anything EA might suggest.... like the post above says just make DA3 a great game.

You don't have to introduce gimmicks and water the game down to attract new audiences, a great game will do that on its OWN!!

[Mark of the Dragon]

I am glad some people realize Bioware is definitly listening. So many people are still trolling around and running their mouths that they arent listening to how Bioware still cares and plans on making things better. Yes DA2 had a lot of problems but it wasnt broken and from the sound of it Bioware is already taking steps to correct these problems in future installments. I mean the DLC already proves what Bioware has learned. It definitly gives the players a better gameplay experience.
As for those saying it doesnt address all the problems, of course it doesnt. I mean it is only DLC. It has to be built on the system they already have. So no not everything is better however Bioware sounds like they already have plans to fix those problems with DA3. I dont mind the action button I prefer it over DAO's combat where i told someone to do something and they had to shuffle into place before attacking. So if they just slow down combat and continue designing levels with it in mind things will definitly go better.
I for one cant wait for DA3. I for one am just happy we get to travel and explore again. I love Bioware games for there characters and deep stories. While I wasnt to fond of DA2's story I dont think Ill have a problem with an awesome epic story in DA3. Bioware will rock it. They are listening and BIOWARE we appreciate it.

P.S. Just wanted to say that a new story DLC announcement would be welcome anytime now