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We Only Have 3-5 Party Members. At Least One Will Die


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#126
CptData

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cacharadon wrote...
why does it have to be humans vs aliens? I love all of em equally. I thought mass effect was doing a good job teaching people what a bad egg xenophobia is but it sems to be having an opposite effect on some people...


So true. My canon!Shep's LI is Ashley, his best friend is Wrex, he wouldn't ever want to lose Garrus or Tali and didn't took it well he had to sacrifice his friend and comrade Kaidan on Virmire.

Sure, I like some characters more than others and Jack is being the last on the list, but I still like her enough that I did her LM and simply doesn't want her to get killed at any point in the game if I can prevent ist. They all have their good and bad parts. And just because humans are "normal" and aliens are not, I don't see it as a flaw.

By the way - the aliens I like most are either Salarians or Wrex errr ... Krogan (Wrex is so awesome, he's his own race) . The aliens I like least are Asari. Why? I dunno. Maybe because of that "omni-sex" stuff. I can live with a mono-gender race, but I dislike the idea they can "do it" with every sentient being. Can they do it with ANY non-sentient being too?! Image IPB

Modifié par CptData, 19 octobre 2011 - 10:39 .


#127
AdmiralCheez

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ADLegend21 wrote...

*snip*

You know, of all the people you listed, it seems that the only two people who have serious trouble getting over sh*t are Jack and Garrus.  And yet humans are "complex individuals," while aliens just "have more issues/trouble getting over them."  You handwave any problems the humans might have as a minor trait or praise them for their "humanity," but when an alien approaches you with a similar problem or character flaw, they're "whiny."  The difference in language is most telling.

Everybody thanks you for your help after their LM and receives enough closure to focus completely on the mission.  You are creating a false dichotomy between those who are human and those who are not.

So yeah, you racist.

(Not saying the people who say Kaidan is whiny and Ash is a xenophonic zealot aren't also batsh*t.)

EDIT: TYPO, YOU CANNOT HIDE FROM ME.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 19 octobre 2011 - 01:09 .


#128
Dominus

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Maybe because of that "omni-sex" stuff.

So that's what they meant by "Omni-Tool". How am I supposed to upgrade it, again? This old model isn't cutting it...

I agree with Admiral, no need to create an illusionary line between them.

#129
Kaiser Arian XVII

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What? where are my favorite ME2 characters?

#130
lost.long.ago

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AdmiralCheez wrote...

You know, of all the people you listed, it seems that the only two people who have serious trouble getting over sh*t are Jack and Garrus.  And yet humans are "complex individuals," while aliens just "have more issues/trouble getting over them."  You handwave any problems the humans might have as a minor trait or praise them for their "humanity," but when an alien approaches you with a similar problem or character flaw, they're "whiny."  The difference in langage is most telling.

Everybody thanks you for your help after their LM and receives enough closure to focus completely on the mission.  You are creating a false dichotomy between those who are human and those who are not.


Seconded.  None of the humans just "get over" their problems; they just learn to shut-up about them.  Ash I'm sure still has her issues, but she had to accept that things weren't gonna change.  If Kaidan was really over brain camp, well, why'd he get all emotional about it and randomly bring it up during one of our conversations where I didn't really ask?  I'm pretty sure he was 32 then as well.  And if you think someone who was as f*ed up as Jack is suddenly all better, you're crazy.  She just had her life shaken by the fact that things weren't what she always made them out to be when she was a kid too.

The aliens are exactly the same.  They is all equals^_^.

#131
JeffZero

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thatguy212 wrote...

can't find the video, it might have been an interview with casey hudson or it could have been one of the q&a's all i remember it was a quick mention about how your team may not always agree with your actions and it can cause disagreements between you and them that could end up with them leaving, either way i'll keep looking for it in the morning


Alright, cool. I'll dig around too.

#132
JeffZero

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lost.long.ago wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

You know, of all the people you listed, it seems that the only two people who have serious trouble getting over sh*t are Jack and Garrus.  And yet humans are "complex individuals," while aliens just "have more issues/trouble getting over them."  You handwave any problems the humans might have as a minor trait or praise them for their "humanity," but when an alien approaches you with a similar problem or character flaw, they're "whiny."  The difference in langage is most telling.

Everybody thanks you for your help after their LM and receives enough closure to focus completely on the mission.  You are creating a false dichotomy between those who are human and those who are not.


Seconded.  None of the humans just "get over" their problems; they just learn to shut-up about them.  Ash I'm sure still has her issues, but she had to accept that things weren't gonna change.  If Kaidan was really over brain camp, well, why'd he get all emotional about it and randomly bring it up during one of our conversations where I didn't really ask?  I'm pretty sure he was 32 then as well.  And if you think someone who was as f*ed up as Jack is suddenly all better, you're crazy.  She just had her life shaken by the fact that things weren't what she always made them out to be when she was a kid too.

The aliens are exactly the same.  They is all equals^_^.



Indeed.

#133
swordmalice

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Having Liara, a character I like and a main LI shoved in my face? And as a "permanent" squaddie in ME3?

I'mokwiththis.jpg

#134
ADLegend21

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AdmiralCheez wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

*snip*

You know, of all the people you listed, it seems that the only two people who have serious trouble getting over sh*t are Jack and Garrus.  And yet humans are "complex individuals," while aliens just "have more issues/trouble getting over them."  You handwave any problems the humans might have as a minor trait or praise them for their "humanity," but when an alien approaches you with a similar problem or character flaw, they're "whiny."  The difference in language is most telling.

Everybody thanks you for your help after their LM and receives enough closure to focus completely on the mission.  You are creating a false dichotomy between those who are human and those who are not.

So yeah, you racist.

(Not saying the people who say Kaidan is whiny and Ash is a xenophonic zealot aren't also batsh*t.)

EDIT: TYPO, YOU CANNOT HIDE FROM ME.

Oh not every non human is whiny, no, and despite what you're trying to say I'm not racist toward the Aliens, but in contrast to the supremely high standard everyone sets them at on this forum, they're not all that and a bag of chips (yes I'm old...GET OFF MY LAWN) Garrus is touted as space batman when he's nowhere near the idealist, strategist, or as tough as bruce wayne, in fact he whines through the whole series. You meet him, he's whining about his c-sec investigation when he's trying to investigate a spectre. It's classified by the council get over it and find another way to do your job. AFter you recruit him he goes on with his "rules only prevent me from doing my job" funny shepard does his/her job and follows the rules, go figure. Skip  2 years into the future you find him on laless Omega pinned down my Mercenary gang he and his team pissed off. He doesn't shut up about it. Every one of hi conversations comes back to his omega team, even during the romance scene it's "I just want something to go right, not like my team on Omega, they were all good men" Shepard didn't shower and freshen up to hear you whine Garrus. *headbutt*

Tali is a naive girl who also doesn't grow much in the two years between Games. sure she's leading stike ops and recovering a distressed Quarian on pilgrimmage but she is way over her head as a commanding officer and on freedoms progress her team completely disregards her authority and tries to screw Shepard over and end up dead. That can be forgiven as lack of experience but then when you get back to knowing her she's questioning Shepard's decision to work with cebrerus (understandable) offering support Understandable and then 'oh snap my dads a war criminal let's not tell anyone or I'll hate you ok? um...WUT!? Not to mention that she still doesn't even consider that her stance on the geth and the mourning war are the least bit wrong even when there's a talking geth to prove her wrong and even explain the Geth's side and their actions over the passed 300 years. People call Ashley a racist but Tali gets off scott free for 'The Geth are villians we are victims" when it's the other way around. I honestly wanted to trade her for qwib qwib after her LM.

Wrex is also put up on a pedestal that he doesn't deserve. He's sort of boring in ME1 and is sort of a Krogan wikipedia, though he does have that one story about Saren to switch things up. He then throws a tantrum on Virmire which is understandable because it's a genophage cure, but of course it's in the wrongest hands it could be in and he does relent and go on to lead the Krogans to the right path without the Genophage. He should get credit for being important until the two characters mentioned above him

In contrast to the 9 Alien squadmates who are "cool yo" the 7 "boring ass" humans in my opinion do have the best writing and it's not jsut because their human, it's that they represent all the different faces of humanity in Mass Effect. Kaidan represents the first generation of human biotics since he had to endure brain camp. Ashley represents the dedication soldiers of the Alliance have even though the Williams family is blacklisted (until ME3 it seems as she's now a Spectre) Jacob represents the part of humanity that wants to take the fight to the Reapers since he switches from the Alliance to Cerberus to help the colonies being attacked by Reaper agents. Miranda represents the Cerberus point of view as she's been a part of them her entire adult life. Jack represents part of the under belly of humanity and cerberus. She was raised a s a test subject and after she escaped that she was a criminal. Zaeed was a Mercenary for the last 20 years of his life after founding one of the merc groups you just obliterate throughout the course of ME2 and has stories that no one else besides maybe Samara could match.

I do love the characters and backstories of Mordin and Samara. They both have interesting views on the Galaxy and have done some pretty important things for the Galaxy and it shows in their characters. But this whole "Aliens are awesome humans suck" is the wthing I'm trying to fight since hte Aleiens do tend to be overrated and the humans are vastly underrated by the BSN and various "journalists." (yeah I'm looking at you writer that called Ashley and kaidan 'lesser humans')Image IPB

#135
Xilizhra

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People call Ashley a racist but Tali gets off scott free for 'The Geth are villians we are victims" when it's the other way around. I honestly wanted to trade her for qwib qwib after her LM.

The turians only banged humanity up a bit and the other species other than batarians haven't really done anything. The quarians were nearly wiped out by the geth. And Tali's speciesism is very specific, while Ashley's is more generalized. They aren't that comparable.

n contrast to the 9 Alien squadmates who are "cool yo" the 7 "boring ass" humans in my opinion do have the best writing and it's not jsut because their human, it's that they represent all the different faces of humanity in Mass Effect.

It's not that they're bad, but there's too many and we only get to see multiple perspectives from humans, not any other species except asari to a limited extent. The balance is off.

But this whole "Aliens are awesome humans suck" is the wthing I'm trying to fight since hte Aleiens do tend to be overrated and the humans are vastly underrated by the BSN and various "journalists."

An attitude that only exists inside your head. Also, Ashley and Kaidan really are just Shepard, but less so.

#136
jeweledleah

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lost.long.ago wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

You know, of all the people you listed, it seems that the only two people who have serious trouble getting over sh*t are Jack and Garrus.  And yet humans are "complex individuals," while aliens just "have more issues/trouble getting over them."  You handwave any problems the humans might have as a minor trait or praise them for their "humanity," but when an alien approaches you with a similar problem or character flaw, they're "whiny."  The difference in langage is most telling.

Everybody thanks you for your help after their LM and receives enough closure to focus completely on the mission.  You are creating a false dichotomy between those who are human and those who are not.


Seconded.  None of the humans just "get over" their problems; they just learn to shut-up about them.  Ash I'm sure still has her issues, but she had to accept that things weren't gonna change.  If Kaidan was really over brain camp, well, why'd he get all emotional about it and randomly bring it up during one of our conversations where I didn't really ask?  I'm pretty sure he was 32 then as well.  And if you think someone who was as f*ed up as Jack is suddenly all better, you're crazy.  She just had her life shaken by the fact that things weren't what she always made them out to be when she was a kid too.

The aliens are exactly the same.  They is all equals^_^.



Kaidan originaly brings up the brain camp, becasue he gets a little informal and apologizes for bad habits aquired in said brain camp.  after which shepard specificaly has to ask him to tell more.

when Kaidan brings it up again though... its not to whine and moan about it.  its to tell Shepard a cautionary tail of what happens when you cut corners and don't concider all the options.  Alliance cut corners by hring a Turian mercenary instead of going through official channels and getting a better trainer?  lots of kinds got hurt.  Kaidan stood up to defend a girl he liked, without thinking or planning... not only he got hurt himself, but he ended up killing aforementioned instructor in self defence.  hence his "always leave a way out" philosophy.  he tells Shepard about mistakes from the pastso that Shepard could learn from them instead of making those same mistakes allover again.

but yeah.  everyone has their issues.  no one comes out completely unscathed.  but even humans who actualy worked through their issues gets judged harsher then Aliens who are still nowhere near getting anywhere when it comes to dealing with their issues.

as for balance? this game involves around a human commander, serving i na humanmilitary, on a human ship.  having more alien squadmates then human, or even the same amount just seems...  out of place, IMO  this is not Star trek next generation, where federation existed for a while and consists of humans and aliens alike.  humanity has only been on the galactic scene for a few decades, systems alliance is a human organization.  this is comparable to original serience, where most aliens are guest starts rather then a permanent part of ensemble cast.  we have too many random aliens serving on the Normandy as it is.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 19 octobre 2011 - 06:51 .


#137
Xilizhra

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as for balance? this game involves around a human commander, serving i na humanmilitary, on a human ship. having more alien squadmates then human, or even the same amount just seems... out of place, IMO this is not Star trek next generation, where federation existed for a while and consists of humans and aliens alike. humanity has only been on the galactic scene for a few decades, systems alliance is a human organization. this is comparable to original serience, where most aliens are guest starts rather then a permanent part of ensemble cast. we have too many random aliens serving on the Normandy as it is.

Perception bias. You're not seeing the rather large and entirely human crew. The Normandy only has a few alien specialists.

#138
Guest_cacharadon_*

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can't we all just love each other, and get along?

someone hold my hand

#139
AngelicMachinery

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cacharadon wrote...

can't we all just love each other, and get along?

someone hold my hand


Kumbaya my lawd kumbaya?

#140
ADLegend21

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Xilizhra wrote...


The turians only banged humanity up a bit and the other species other than batarians haven't really done anything. The quarians were nearly wiped out by the geth. And Tali's speciesism is very specific, while Ashley's is more generalized. They aren't that comparable.

It's not that they're bad, but there's too many and we only get to see multiple perspectives from humans, not any other species except asari to a limited extent. The balance is off.


An attitude that only exists inside your head. Also, Ashley and Kaidan really are just Shepard, but less so.

That was a formal war. Batarians attack defenseless colonies and try to ram asteroids into others. They also didn't exclusively attack humans, they annexed an asari colony and attack the Salarian colony Mannovai.

From posts in this thread it seems there aren't enough aliens. MOAR ALIENS

and there's a post in this exat thread that says "boring as humans cool ass aliens" and a post that agrees by SilentNukee. so no it's not in my heads it's all over the BSN.

Modifié par ADLegend21, 19 octobre 2011 - 06:55 .


#141
jeweledleah

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Xilizhra wrote...

as for balance? this game involves around a human commander, serving i na humanmilitary, on a human ship. having more alien squadmates then human, or even the same amount just seems... out of place, IMO this is not Star trek next generation, where federation existed for a while and consists of humans and aliens alike. humanity has only been on the galactic scene for a few decades, systems alliance is a human organization. this is comparable to original serience, where most aliens are guest starts rather then a permanent part of ensemble cast. we have too many random aliens serving on the Normandy as it is.

Perception bias. You're not seeing the rather large and entirely human crew. The Normandy only has a few alien specialists.


not relaly.  I'm seeing a large human crewjust fine.  on original enterprise, there was one alien. ONE.

more then half of the Normandy's specialist crew - is alien.  its not as badin ME2,since Normandyis not part of alliance at that time.  but in ME1?  it was a bit much.  and in ME3?  seems like Shepard is going back to alliance again.  serving on alliance ship, rather then an independant one.

alien allies?  yes please.  allian crewmates?  nyah.

#142
CptData

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*sigh* It's useless. Some ppl hate human crewmates because they're not "cool" enough or simply "racist" (Ashley), "boring" (Kaidan), "priiize" (Jacob), "insane" (Jack), "oversexed" (Miranda) ... and others seem to hate aliens.

Why can't those ppl accept the fact they're basically just - don't kill me - fictional characters with different skins? That's what they are. You can go that far just replacing any alien race by a human or vice versa. Does that make Miranda less interesting if she becomes an Asari? Or Wrex less interesting if he turns out to be Sergeant Willard Rex (Space Marine)?

Meh. Useless discussion. Sorry for rant. I'm out.

#143
Xilizhra

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not relaly. I'm seeing a large human crewjust fine. on original enterprise, there was one alien. ONE.

From a less progressive time.

more then half of the Normandy's specialist crew - is alien. its not as badin ME2,since Normandyis not part of alliance at that time. but in ME1? it was a bit much. and in ME3? seems like Shepard is going back to alliance again. serving on alliance ship, rather then an independant one.

The SR1 squad was largely formed out of happenstance, and the SR2 just grabbed whomever was the best at their jobs regardless of species. For ME3, things are so bad with the Reapers that I really doubt anyone will care much about species.

#144
jeweledleah

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Xilizhra wrote...

not relaly. I'm seeing a large human crewjust fine. on original enterprise, there was one alien. ONE.

From a less progressive time.

more then half of the Normandy's specialist crew - is alien. its not as badin ME2,since Normandyis not part of alliance at that time. but in ME1? it was a bit much. and in ME3? seems like Shepard is going back to alliance again. serving on alliance ship, rather then an independant one.

The SR1 squad was largely formed out of happenstance, and the SR2 just grabbed whomever was the best at their jobs regardless of species. For ME3, things are so bad with the Reapers that I really doubt anyone will care much about species.


so if there is no care for the species, what exactly is wrong with human squadmates, that are sent by the alliance along with the ship?

I don't mind alien squadmates. I just don't see why they are automaticaly more interesting then human, and why humans squadmates are boring based on them being, well, human.

#145
Xilizhra

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I don't mind alien squadmates. I just don't see why they are automaticaly more interesting then human, and why humans squadmates are boring based on them being, well, human.

They aren't. But they're all from the same culture. Imagine what people would say with seven asari squadmates.

#146
jeweledleah

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Xilizhra wrote...

I don't mind alien squadmates. I just don't see why they are automaticaly more interesting then human, and why humans squadmates are boring based on them being, well, human.

They aren't. But they're all from the same culture. Imagine what people would say with seven asari squadmates.


to quote Wrex..  so human have all these diverse behaviors, but Krogan all act the same?

it applies to any species in Mass Effect.  humans are from the same species.  they are not necessarily from the same culture.  7 asari squadmates would make a perfect sence...if we were playing an asari character, serving on an asari vessel.

#147
Xilizhra

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jeweledleah wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't mind alien squadmates. I just don't see why they are automaticaly more interesting then human, and why humans squadmates are boring based on them being, well, human.

They aren't. But they're all from the same culture. Imagine what people would say with seven asari squadmates.


to quote Wrex..  so human have all these diverse behaviors, but Krogan all act the same?

it applies to any species in Mass Effect.  humans are from the same species.  they are not necessarily from the same culture.  7 asari squadmates would make a perfect sence...if we were playing an asari character, serving on an asari vessel.

All the humans are from the Alliance, pretty much, and the variations are minor. And no, not all krogan act the same, but we only have two krogan to base it on (still better than any other species but asari), and they're fairly cookie-cutter. Your quote only emphasizes my problem.

#148
ADLegend21

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we have way more than two Krogan. There's Okeer, UVenk, charr (poet Krogan), teh agent for Mr. Thax, Urdnot scout, Fortack, the mechanic, the Shaman, even the ambassador of clan Nakmor.

#149
Xilizhra

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Not on the squad or the ship. That was my point.

#150
jeweledleah

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but why do they have to be?