222 réponses à ce sujet

[KainrycKarr]

In Exile wrote...

Bostur wrote...
I think the fourth use of the dialogue wheel is silly. When the player has no impact on what is going on, it's a cheap trick to make it seem like it's an important choice. The other ways to use the dialogue wheel is fine though.

Illusion of choice makes a significant effect on enjoyment. It's like saying that video-games are silly, because you're just sitting down/lying prone for hours on end moving a plastic clump while looking at a screen. If it improves the experience, then it's worthwhile. 

Exactly. For me, the little things mean a great deal.

[Jaron Oberyn]

So because I don't agree with you, I must be trolling? Come on man. Shepard being able to swing both ways doesn't mean he's not predefined. It means that now he's bi, simple as that.


-Polite

[burr beer]

The reason there were only 2 dialogue options in the demo is simply...because it is a demo.  If you're showing a game on stage or at a trade show where there is a limited time for the player, what better way to illustrate that you can make choices than a simple choice between a good and bad response?

I know there are tons of people that say wait for the final game before judging on any complaint from the demoes, but as someone who, like you, is concerned about quite a bit of ME3's content, I'm pretty confident that this isn't representative of the final version's dialogue wheel options.  There will likely be options to talk to the princess/get more details from Mordin and they chose not to include them in the stage demo.

Modifié par burr beer, 23 octobre 2011 - 04:43 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

So it's confirmed, we get "suddenly bisexual Shepard' in ME3?

Nice retcon. Whatever.

[didymos1120]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

So it's confirmed, we get "suddenly bisexual Shepard' in ME3?

Nice retcon. Whatever.

Nice misuse of the term "retcon".  

[Killjoy Cutter]

didymos1120 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

So it's confirmed, we get "suddenly bisexual Shepard' in ME3?

Nice retcon. Whatever.

Nice misuse of the term "retcon".  

Well, the alternative to "Shep was bi all along" is "Shep suddenly realizes he can't deny blah blah blah."

[Jaron Oberyn]

I wouldn't hold my breath on that burr beer. No matter your stance on the krogans or genophage, Shepard will still tell the princess he'd like to get to know her.


-Polite

[Gatt9]

burr beer wrote...

The reason there were only 2 dialogue options in the demo is simply...because it is a demo.  If you're showing a game on stage or at a trade show where there is a limited time for the player, what better way to illustrate that you can make choices than a simple choice between a good and bad response?

I know there are tons of people that say wait for the final game before judging on any complaint from the demoes, but as someone who, like you, is concerned about quite a bit of ME3's content, I'm pretty confident that this isn't representative of the final version's dialogue wheel options.  There will likely be options to talk to the princess/get more details from Mordin and they chose not to include them in the stage demo.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there.  First,  because Bioware's reputation is one where they only offer you Good or Evil choices,  with no gray areas.  Second,  if you're trying to show off a game where the player interacts with the game and can affect the direction of the game,  what you really want to show is more choices.

I'm also not in agreement on the topic of waiting for the demo to find out,  that's what people insisted everyone should do with DA2,  and when the demo proved to be exactly as expected,  they insisted everyone wait for the final game,  and when that turned out to be identical to the demo and the previews,  well,  it went downhill very rapidly.

Which,  TBH,  is what I expect to happen here at this point.

@OP

Did you know that Gaider's response to DA2 criticism was to start talking about adding even more icons so that the player wouldn't have to deal with that nasty reading stuff?  Another Bioware person was wishing for a "Skip combat" button.

Which IMO,  really says alot about the quality of development at Bioware today.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

So it's confirmed, we get "suddenly bisexual Shepard' in ME3?

Nice retcon. Whatever.

Nice misuse of the term "retcon".

He used it right.  Retroactive Continuity.  The main character suddenly becoming bisexual after 2 games of being straight is a pretty major example of a retcon.  Since we're also talking about the studio that developed DA2,  it's pretty likely that formerly straight NPC's are now suddenly bisexual as well,  and there's pretty good odds that suddenly everyone is considering their recent game.

[ReshyShira]

burr beer wrote...

The reason there were only 2 dialogue options in the demo is simply...because it is a demo.  If you're showing a game on stage or at a trade show where there is a limited time for the player, what better way to illustrate that you can make choices than a simple choice between a good and bad response?

I know there are tons of people that say wait for the final game before judging on any complaint from the demoes, but as someone who, like you, is concerned about quite a bit of ME3's content, I'm pretty confident that this isn't representative of the final version's dialogue wheel options.  There will likely be options to talk to the princess/get more details from Mordin and they chose not to include them in the stage demo.

After DA2's abysmal quality for bioware we have the right to be a bit worried about the responses we're given.  It seems that the more recent bioware games have been more and more linar and combat focused and less and less about the whole role playing aspect.

[alex90c]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

So it's confirmed, we get "suddenly bisexual Shepard' in ME3?

Nice retcon. Whatever.

femshep & kelly or liara isn't shep being gay then? hell, I'm pretty sure it was possible for both sheps to be gay right from the first game, just the s/s romances didn't end up getting implemented (a bit how tali was meant to be an LI too but Bioware thought nobody would be all that interested in her)

After DA2's abysmal quality for bioware we have the right to be a bit
worried about the responses we're given.  It seems that the more recent
bioware games have been more and more linar and combat focused and less
and less about the whole role playing aspect.

how is DA2 more linear than DA:O? how is ME2 more linear than ME1? how does ME2 have a smaller roleplaying aspect than ME1?

why does nobody ever answer me when I raise these questions?

Modifié par alex90c, 23 octobre 2011 - 08:18 .

[KainrycKarr]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

So because I don't agree with you, I must be trolling? Come on man. Shepard being able to swing both ways doesn't mean he's not predefined. It means that now he's bi, simple as that.


-Polite

I'm done with this. You're not going to get it, no matter how many different ways it's spelled out for you. 

I'm going to enjoy making PLAYER-CHOICES about who MY shepard is in ME3, and you just have fun yelling that there is no choice to anyone who'll listen.

[Get Magna Carter]

Gatt9 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

So it's confirmed, we get "suddenly bisexual Shepard' in ME3?

Nice retcon. Whatever.

Nice misuse of the term "retcon".

He used it right.  Retroactive Continuity.  The main character suddenly becoming bisexual after 2 games of being straight is a pretty major example of a retcon.  Since we're also talking about the studio that developed DA2,  it's pretty likely that formerly straight NPC's are now suddenly bisexual as well,  and there's pretty good odds that suddenly everyone is considering their recent game.

despite what some people at Bioware may have said Shepard has never been a rigidly defined company created character but is a loosely defined character (i.e. togh space marine saving the peoples of the galaxy from the reapers) customised by the player.
The change for ME3 is to extend this customisation to allow a player to CHOOSE to depict a male Shepard as homosexual or bisexual if they wish (previously male Shepard could have been homosexual or bisexual but had no dialogue options in the game to express it).  Players can contine to keep their male Shepard heterosexual if they wish.

In short, Shepard is too loosely define by Bioware and too much defined by the player for this to count as a ret-con 

[Nizzemancer]

ok, agreed. No dialogue-wheel in ME4

[Nizzemancer]

Gatt9 wrote...

burr beer wrote...

The reason there were only 2 dialogue options in the demo is simply...because it is a demo.  If you're showing a game on stage or at a trade show where there is a limited time for the player, what better way to illustrate that you can make choices than a simple choice between a good and bad response?

I know there are tons of people that say wait for the final game before judging on any complaint from the demoes, but as someone who, like you, is concerned about quite a bit of ME3's content, I'm pretty confident that this isn't representative of the final version's dialogue wheel options.  There will likely be options to talk to the princess/get more details from Mordin and they chose not to include them in the stage demo.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there.  First,  because Bioware's reputation is one where they only offer you Good or Evil choices,  with no gray areas.  Second,  if you're trying to show off a game where the player interacts with the game and can affect the direction of the game,  what you really want to show is more choices.

I'm also not in agreement on the topic of waiting for the demo to find out,  that's what people insisted everyone should do with DA2,  and when the demo proved to be exactly as expected,  they insisted everyone wait for the final game,  and when that turned out to be identical to the demo and the previews,  well,  it went downhill very rapidly.

Which,  TBH,  is what I expect to happen here at this point.

@OP

Did you know that Gaider's response to DA2 criticism was to start talking about adding even more icons so that the player wouldn't have to deal with that nasty reading stuff?  Another Bioware person was wishing for a "Skip combat" button.

Which IMO,  really says alot about the quality of development at Bioware today.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

So it's confirmed, we get "suddenly bisexual Shepard' in ME3?

Nice retcon. Whatever.

Nice misuse of the term "retcon".

He used it right.  Retroactive Continuity.  The main character suddenly becoming bisexual after 2 games of being straight is a pretty major example of a retcon.  Since we're also talking about the studio that developed DA2,  it's pretty likely that formerly straight NPC's are now suddenly bisexual as well,  and there's pretty good odds that suddenly everyone is considering their recent game.

Just because you suddenly have the option to have your character do the nasty with someone of the same sex doesn't mean they suddenly change to bisexual or gay, it just means that now they can act on it.

If I ignore a girl for years, then suddenly pay interest to her, that doesn't mean I was gay all those years and then became straight now does it?

Modifié par Nizzemancer, 23 octobre 2011 - 11:05 .

[streamlock]

From a technical prospective, yes it works well-especially for making dialogue choices using a joypad. It is less needed, but still serviceable on a keyboard mouse setup as well.

As far as the choices and consequences you are offered? I think that question stands independently of the 'wheel'.

Beyond that it hamstrings the writers on how many choices can be available for a particular conversation point. But then again, current game development theory seems to be of the thought that giving a player a large array of choices equates to bad gameplay. Or at least limiting choice makes a game, ahem-mainstream audience friendly. So maybe the dialogue choice limitation is a feature as much as a contraint from that prospective.

[Il Divo]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

So it's confirmed, we get "suddenly bisexual Shepard' in ME3?

Nice retcon. Whatever.

Gatt wrote...

He used it right. Retroactive Continuity. The main character suddenly becoming bisexual after 2 games of being straight is a pretty major example of a retcon. Since we're also talking about the studio that developed DA2, it's pretty likely that formerly straight NPC's are now suddenly bisexual as well, and there's pretty good odds that suddenly everyone is considering their recent game.

Right, so I'm going to take a brief second and explain to the two of you how retcons work, since you both seem prone to tossing it around like a Caesar Salad.

A retcon involves the creator of the universe purposely altering how there universe works and expects the audience to assume that's how it always functioned. If Shepard is human in Mass Effect 1, and an Asari in Mass Effect 2 (with no explanation), then that is a retcon.

If Shepard never actually comments on his sexuality in ME1/2 and chooses not to romance a character of the opposite sex, then that is not a retcon. You are free to imagine any number of reasons why your character was not attracted to a particular character: duty, no sexual tension, fear, etc. Pointing that out as a retcon would be like pointing to the option to romance Garrus or Tali as a retcon of Mass Effect. In other words, it has no backing. If you don't want Shepard to have a same-sex romance, then don't do it. It's that simple. See? No ret-con involved.

Modifié par Il Divo, 23 octobre 2011 - 01:41 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Il Divo wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

So it's confirmed, we get "suddenly bisexual Shepard' in ME3?

Nice retcon. Whatever.

Gatt wrote...

He used it right. Retroactive Continuity. The main character suddenly becoming bisexual after 2 games of being straight is a pretty major example of a retcon. Since we're also talking about the studio that developed DA2, it's pretty likely that formerly straight NPC's are now suddenly bisexual as well, and there's pretty good odds that suddenly everyone is considering their recent game.

Right, so I'm going to take a brief second and explain to the two of you how retcons work, since you both seem prone to tossing it around like a Caesar Salad.

A retcon involves the creator of the universe purposely altering how there universe works and expects the audience to assume that's how it always functioned. If Shepard is human in Mass Effect 1, and an Asari in Mass Effect 2 (with no explanation), then that is a retcon.

If Shepard never actually comments on his sexuality in ME1/2 and chooses not to romance a character of the opposite sex, then that is not a retcon. You are free to imagine any number of reasons why your character was not attracted to a particular character: duty, no sexual tension, fear, etc. Pointing that out as a retcon would be like pointing to the option to romance Garrus or Tali as a retcon of Mass Effect. In other words, it has no backing. If you don't want Shepard to have a same-sex romance, then don't do it. It's that simple. See? No ret-con involved.

The pattern was there throughout ME1 and ME2, of who Shep would pursue a relationship with, and who Shep would not persue a relationship with.  Now, the established pattern is being ignored in favor of... something else.  To me, that's a clearcut example of retroactive continuity. 

[didymos1120]

Gatt9 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

So it's confirmed, we get "suddenly bisexual Shepard' in ME3?

Nice retcon. Whatever.

Nice misuse of the term "retcon".

He used it right.  Retroactive Continuity.  The main character suddenly becoming bisexual after 2 games of being straight is a pretty major example of a retcon. 

Oh, really?  Well then, it should be no problem at all to point out exactly where, in either game, a single line of non-selectable dialogue exists that definitively establishes Shepard's sexuality.  Oh, wait, it is a problem: no such dialogue exists.  Nor does any text, for that matter.  And don't give me the "available LI's define Shep's sexuality implicitly" nonsense either.  Because here's the thing: the only line in either game where Shepard's sexuality is explicitly defined is in ME1, and it's one you have to choose. It's a Femshep line: you can tell Liara you're only into men. 

So, if Liara counts as a same-sex LI, she cannot implicitly define Femshep's sexuality as Shep can reject her on the grounds that she doesn't swing that way.  If you instead try to claim she doesn't count as a same-sex LI, you still have to explain why Femshep would see it that way. And you've now put MShep in an odd place:  someone potentially into sexless aliens.  It gets worse for him if you also insist that available LIs do implicitly define a sexuality:  what sexuality would encompass the totally-not-really-a-girl-so-it's-not-lesbian-with-Femshep Liara?  It certainly wouldn't be "straight". 

The position that Shep has any sort of established, pre-defined sexuality is just plain incoherent.  It can't be supported by in-game evidence: no unavoidable dialogue, using available LI's leads to absurdities, and romances are entirely optional.  So yeah: nice misuse of the term "retcon".

Modifié par didymos1120, 23 octobre 2011 - 02:26 .

[Il Divo]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The pattern was there throughout ME1 and ME2, of who Shep would pursue a relationship with, and who Shep would not persue a relationship with.  Now, the established pattern is being ignored in favor of... something else.  To me, that's a clearcut example of retroactive continuity. 

Again, what pattern? How does this work? Characters hit on Shepard and he's given options in how to react. Where does the game establish that Shepard is definitively heterosexual, assuming you do not romance a party member? Unless you can provide that, you have not demonstrated anything close to how it's an example of a retcon.

That's how it works in real life as well. Your sexual preferences are not defined by how other people view you. Ex: If a man hits on you, it does not make homosexual. It sounds like you're just trying to take a swing at ME3, and doing it from the wrong position.

Modifié par Il Divo, 23 octobre 2011 - 02:28 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Il Divo wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The pattern was there throughout ME1 and ME2, of who Shep would pursue a relationship with, and who Shep would not persue a relationship with.  Now, the established pattern is being ignored in favor of... something else.  To me, that's a clearcut example of retroactive continuity. 

Again, what pattern? How does this work? Characters hit on Shepard and he's given options in how to react. Where does the game establish that Shepard is definitively heterosexual, assuming you do not romance a party member? Unless you can provide that, you have not demonstrated anything close to how it's an example of a retcon.

That's how it works in real life as well. Your sexual preferences are not defined by how other people view you. Ex: If a man hits on you, it does not make homosexual. It sounds like you're just trying to take a swing at ME3, and doing it from the wrong position.

I already detailed which pattern I'm talking about -- who Shep will romance, and who Shep will not. 

Two games worth, nine possible LIs, and the only one that's not strictly heterosexual is a monosexual alien whose mating is more mental than physical. 

If anyone wants to make a new game with a bisexual or homosexual protagonist and NPCs, no skin off my nose.  Hell, my femHawkes have all romanced Merrill or Izzy.  Just don't change things 2/3 of the way through in the name of fanservice. 

[Il Divo]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...


I already detailed which pattern I'm talking about -- who Shep will romance, and who Shep will not. 

Two games worth, nine possible LIs, and the only one that's not strictly heterosexual is a monosexual alien whose mating is more mental than physical. 

If anyone wants to make a new game with a bisexual or homosexual protagonist and NPCs, no skin off my nose.  Hell, my femHawkes have all romanced Merrill or Izzy.  Just don't change things 2/3 of the way through in the name of fanservice. 

All of that, absolutely irrelevant to establishing Shepard as a definitive hetero-sexual character, which is necessary for what you are saying to be true. They changed nothing which you don't allow to change. Allowing same-sex relationships does not, on its face, make Shepard bi-sexual. The only thing the underlined tells us is that you cannot role-play a bisexual Shepard who is interested in any of his ME1/ME2 companions.

Your argument does not explain how this is a retcon or what is wrong with Bioware adding different romance options in the final act of this trilogy, for players who so choose. This is not multiplayer we're discussing here. 

Modifié par Il Divo, 23 octobre 2011 - 03:19 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Il Divo wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I already detailed which pattern I'm talking about -- who Shep will romance, and who Shep will not. 

Two games worth, nine possible LIs, and the only one that's not strictly heterosexual is a monosexual alien whose mating is more mental than physical. 

If anyone wants to make a new game with a bisexual or homosexual protagonist and NPCs, no skin off my nose.  Hell, my femHawkes have all romanced Merrill or Izzy.  Just don't change things 2/3 of the way through in the name of fanservice. 

All of that, absolutely irrelevant to establishing Shepard as a definitive hetero-sexual character, which is necessary for what you are saying to be true. They changed nothing which you don't allow to change. Allowing same-sex relationships does not, on its face, make Shepard bi-sexual. The only thing the underlined tells us is that you cannot role-play a bisexual Shepard who is interested in any of his ME1/ME2 companions.

Your argument does not explain how this is a retcon or what is wrong with Bioware adding different romance options in the final act of this trilogy, for players who so choose. This is not multiplayer we're discussing here. 

Yeah, because it would make so much sense for a character to visibly not eat broccoli and avoid broccoli for the first two installments of a trilogy, and then suddenly, in the third, start munching broccoli and say "Oh, I always liked broccoli."  That's exactly what they're doing with "Suddenly Bi Shep"

Shep's behavior in ME1 and ME2 is ABSOLUTELY and ENTIRELY relevent. 

http://en.wikipedia....tive_continuity

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 23 octobre 2011 - 03:35 .

[Il Divo]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...


Yeah, because it would make so much sense for a character to visibly not eat broccoli and avoid broccoli for the first two installments of a trilogy, and then suddenly, in the third, start munching broccoli and say "Oh, I always liked broccoli."  That's exactly what they're doing with "Suddenly Bi Shep" 

Then don't have him romance a same sex character. It's that easy. All your argument tells us is that Shepard didn't find any appeal in the same sex characters offered to him, or (for whatever reason) chose to forego the opportunity. A more accurate example of your logic would be to say that because we never see Shepard eat broccoli, then he must hate broccoli.

The basic premise of your argument is illogical. The narrative never established him as heterosexual. You established him as heterosexual by having him romance Ashely. But that would be like arguing that Bioware established that I'm a renegade merely because I have the potential for renegade actions. Basically, your conclusion does not follow.

Shep's behavior in ME1 and ME2 is ABSOLUTELY and ENTIRELY relevent. 

http://en.wikipedia....tive_continuity

You chose Shepard's behavior. If you have him romance Ashley, he's hetero-sexual. If you have him romance no-one? And if the game doesn't force you to identify your character as hetero-sexual? Then he's whatever you want him to be. Your 9+ potential love interests are irrelevant. Potentiality does not equal actuality.

Modifié par Il Divo, 23 octobre 2011 - 03:51 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

This "it didn't happen in all playthroughs" thing reminds me of the nonsense about the contrived binary nature of Zaeed's LM being just fine because both events never happen in the same playthrough.