26 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I'd be interested in knowing, in a concise format all in one place, what people think are things that Hawke does badly or wrong, to see if I can explain them in my own canon. I don't expect or need to convince any of you, but I'm still curious. 

Modifié par Xilizhra, 19 octobre 2011 - 07:57 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

I don't think it's fair or realistic to criticise a fictional character for his shortcomings, instead of the people responsible for said character and the game he appears in.

[Gervaise]

Hawke doesn't do anything wrong - the plot lines are just contrived against them. All the things that I would like my Hawke to have done are simply not options even though it beggars belief that they would not take action in certain situations. It's strange really that the Chantry say the Maker doesn't involve himself with the world because somewhere there is a deity in Thedas controlling events that has a very warped sense of humour - may be its Fen'Harel.

I think Hawke should at least have been able to warn Mother about a killer on the loose.
Most of the other "failures" relate to Act 3, Meredith and Anders and the fact that when I took him to meet her in the hope that Justice might resolve the situation, he did nothing but insult her and the Circle mages, she did nothing but threaten mages in the Circle, when the majority of the dangerous ones were outside it and just let Anders walk out of there.
I shall always be angry at the writers for introducing a bomb into proceedings, Hawke being able to do nothing to prevent it and actually being made a party to the fact out of friendship, blowing up the wrong person and no one (apart from Sebastian) acknowledging where the real blame lay.

I also think that Hawke should have been able to challenge Meredith on the spot, the moment she declared the Rite of Anulment and if she called on the other Templars to protect her, to have been able to challenge them over their actions in supporting her, pointing out that during the previous years, the only person seemingly keeping down the number of blood mages on the streets was Hawke and companions, that Hawke had been responsible for saving the lives of certain Templars (Cullen and Keran) and regretted not being able to save others (Emerich and to a lesser extent Thrask). That there was clear evidence of abuse by Templars within the Gallows when severe emotional distress is known to put mages at risk of possession and that Templars are meant to be there to protect mages as well as the general population.
But since the writers didn't allow this, I don't know how Hawke could have done anything differently and been more "successful".

[KJandrew]

Letting Talis brush Hawke off when he asks for the Scroll.

[naledgeborn]

He's not proactive. A shortsighted character that has the inability to look forward and anticipate the consequences of his actions. Sure he's a survivor - that's cool. But he can hardly take credit for being "the person who changed Thedas". Like Aveline said, "you stumbled into being Champion."

[TEWR]

not being proactive enough. The ending of MotA was horrendous, but it's now.... easier to swallow now that I know he tried to inform people about the Qunari spies (Codex entry: Thoughts on Tallis).

[ReallyRue]

The problem is probably that all these bad things happen to Hawke, yet s/he has no control over it. Which probably comes down to the "not having meaningful choices" issue in the game, rather than problems with Hawke him/herself.

[AlexXIV]

That would be a very long list, which I am not going to post. Starts with watching your sibling being mauled by an Ogre and ends with being forced to choose a side in a battle that is decided from start without Hawke really being able to tip the scales. The players are basically made audience.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 19 octobre 2011 - 10:40 .

[maxernst]

There are far too many places where he watches without doing anything while, for example, Grace kills Thrask or Anders kills Ella (yes, you have a dialogue option if your friendship/rivalry is high enough but there's not way to take more forceful action). He's too lazy to try and continue Emeric's investigation after his death, or to track down the lyrium idol after Bartrand's death (surely Varric or Isabela's contacts can find out something?) He seems to forget he has a sister after she's taken off by Cullen to the Circle. He undertakes quests for reasons that were (for my Hawke at least) obscure, like those of Sister Petrice.

And as others have said, in general, even when he has a variety of actions to take, they don't seem to make any difference to the outcome.

[TheCreeper]

Stuff like Grace killing Thrask happens plenty of times in DA:O and Mass Effect.

[Fauxnormal]

Congratulations, you've opened the door for the whirlwind of thick-headed, meta-gaming complainers.

Have fun with that.

[Bestyj669]

Am I the only one seeing James from Silent Hill 2 in Hawke? No matter what he does, he's screwed. All the "choices" are wrong ...

[Sharn01]

TheCreeper wrote...

Stuff like Grace killing Thrask happens plenty of times in DA:O and Mass Effect.

I am not sure I agree with this, things have happened in cutscenes that you could not influence, but I cant recall a time that someone threatened to kill someone you where suppose to care about and then continue to have dialogue for another two or three minutes while you stand around doing nothing. 

There is a big difference between a surprise action in a cutscene and someone spending a few minutes telling you exactly what they are going to do and then doing it, at least in a scenereo where you are in a position to take action.  Granted, she killed Thrask instead of the sibling/companion, but that is still a lot of time with Hawke doing nothing.

Modifié par Sharn01, 19 octobre 2011 - 11:28 .

[AlexXIV]

It disturbs me just the same. If I come there and it is too late and everyone is dead it is one thing. But if I rush in breaking the door down just to stand and watch someone kill people then it's weird. I'd at least expect the protagonist to make an effort, even if it fails. But just standing there making a silly face is not enough.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 19 octobre 2011 - 11:50 .

[maxernst]

AlexXIV wrote...

It disturbs me just the same. If I come there and it is too late and everyone is dead it is one thing. But if I rush in breaking the door down just to stand and watch someone kill people then it's weird. I'd at least expect the protagonist to make an effort, even if it fails. But just standing there making a silly face is not enough.

Well, that's one of the reasons I prefer scripted sequences within the game engine for those kinds of situations rather than cut scenes: they preserve the illusion of player choice.  But I do think DA2 does it in more significant situations and ones that are more difficult to believe, because you're right next to the perpetrator talking to them, not seeing them from a distance.  Although the Matriarch Benezia cut scenes just drive me wild in ME.  I am really not a fan of this push to make games more cinematic.  Unlike movies, games are meant to be played not watched.

[RagingCyclone]

naledgeborn wrote...

He's not proactive. A shortsighted character that has the inability to look forward and anticipate the consequences of his actions. Sure he's a survivor - that's cool. But he can hardly take credit for being "the person who changed Thedas". Like Aveline said, "you stumbled into being Champion."

This! Couldn't say it any better.

[Big I]

Gervaise wrote...
Hawke doesn't do anything wrong - the plot lines are just contrived against them. All the things that I would like my Hawke to have done are simply not options even though it beggars belief that they would not take action in certain situations.

This. Confining criticisms to things that are never explained as to why they couldn't be done:

- still going on the Deep Roads expedition after becoming a partner in a mine
- not using the coin collected to get in on the expedition to get out of Kirkwall (aka templar central).
- not ignoring Flemeth's amulet.
- not killing Petrice in Act 1
- not killing Petrice in Act 2
- not killing Meredith in Act 2
- not killing Meredith in Act 3
- letting Bethany be taken to the Circle
- not busting Bethany out of the Circle
- not hunting down Quentin in Act 1 after finding the location of his hideout
- not hunting down Quentin in Act 2 after Emeric is killed.
- not having Anders arrested (for being an abomination/killing an innocent girl/plotting to attack the Chantry).
- letting Grace kill Thrask
- agreeing to help Tallis on a heist for almost no reason.
- not killing Tallis after threatening to kill her.
- letting Tallis get away with the spy list without conflict.
- acting as though blood magic is horrific and unthinkable while being a blood mage or reaver.

[Beerfish]

Just whose business is it what my Hawkes shortcomings are!       (Runs to the Black Emporium to see if any viagra is in stock.)

[Gabey5]

-Helping a Talis for no apparent reason. No story reasons, fine i will just drop my entire life and travel to Orlais
- Letting the suspected serial killer walk out the door.


things like that. It is the just standing there that annoys me the most

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'd be interested in knowing, in a concise format all in one place, what people think are things that Hawke does badly or wrong, to see if I can explain them in my own canon. I don't expect or need to convince any of you, but I'm still curious. 

I'll provide you with my opinion about what Hawke does wrong - and I understand the argument that this is because of The Plot Dictates, rather than Hawke persay:

I'd say letting Sister Petrice and Ser Varnell walk away, despite the fact that she wants to start a religious war against the Qunari and tried to get Hawke killed. Also, Hawke does nothing with his newfound wealth and status besides purchase a mansion. Why doesn't an apostate Hawke do more besides wear silk robes and wait for his friends to ask him to aid their efforts? Why doesn't Hawke try to use the incriminating, hand-written letter he found in Quentin's lair to uncover who his accomplice was? Hawke spends three years after becoming Champion of Kirkwall, apparently doing nothing about Meredith's dictatorship (since no one - including Meredith and Orsino - were aware of what his opinion was about Meredith's rule over Kirkwall). Hawke stands idly by while Grace murders Ser Thrask.

Hawke doing nothing seems to continue with the conclusions to Legacy and MoTA. I'm guessing future DLC of Dragon Age 2 will continue to have Hawke do nothing.

[LobselVith8]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

All of these could be easily explained. I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Hawke is an angel of chaos and subversion. She/he let all these things happen, and even helped them happen, because deep down Hawke is a psychopath who just wants to watch Thedas being burnt to the ground. By the Mages, by the Templars, by the Qunari, by Demons, in any and every way possible.

THAT is how I play MY Hawke.

I think the issue is that it goes against how some people would play their respective Hawke, which is why "Varric is drunk when he is telling the story" and fan fiction are alternatives to what was actually provided in the narrative. I wanted to get a pro-active and cunning Hawke, and I don't feel that I was provided with such a character in the actual game - I think it's a failing of the writers and the developers, which is why more than a few brought up such criticism against Dragon Age 2 that it lead to interviews where this was addressed, and even Mike Laidlaw making a thread where he acknowledged the criticism and the problems with the game.

Besides, Xilizhra can re-write and re-configure these problems and flaws in her own story about Hawke.

[maxernst]

LobselVith8 wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

All of these could be easily explained. I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Hawke is an angel of chaos and subversion. She/he let all these things happen, and even helped them happen, because deep down Hawke is a psychopath who just wants to watch Thedas being burnt to the ground. By the Mages, by the Templars, by the Qunari, by Demons, in any and every way possible.

THAT is how I play MY Hawke.

I think the issue is that it goes against how some people would play their respective Hawke, which is why "Varric is drunk when he is telling the story" and fan fiction are alternatives to what was actually provided in the narrative. I wanted to get a pro-active and cunning Hawke, and I don't feel that I was provided with such a character in the actual game - I think it's a failing of the writers and the developers, which is why more than a few brought up such criticism against Dragon Age 2 that it lead to interviews where this was addressed, and even Mike Laidlaw making a thread where he acknowledged the criticism and the problems with the game.

Besides, Xilizhra can re-write and re-configure these problems and flaws in her own story about Hawke.

My personal take is that Hawke is simply self-centered and lazy.  Which is why I've said DA2 might work better as a novel:  I can absolutely see how a novel about someone who fails to act until it's too late because he's enjoying life on his estate might work.  But it's not a character I particularly care to play.

[Foolsfolly]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

not being proactive enough. The ending of MotA was horrendous, but it's now.... easier to swallow now that I know he tried to inform people about the Qunari spies (Codex entry: Thoughts on Tallis).

Ugh, more story telling in the Codex entries? Reminds me of Anders' entries which tell you that he's being Hulking out more and more and he's losing his grip.... while the core game Friendship path is full of "Things are great. Anders is preachy but he's only Hulked out twice in 7 years!"

They tell too much in text instead of in actions and dialogue on screen.