17 réponses à ce sujet

[BubbleDncr]

I recently took it upon myself to catach up on Dragon Age Lore, mainly with reading the timeline of the world (http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Ages), but also reading other entires on the wiki. Here's where I'm confused, so could anyone let me know if I just have a wrong understanding, or if people are just supposed to be confused about this?




So the first human in Thedas, who ended up becoming the Tevinter Imperium, worshipped the old gods, who lured the magisters to go to the Golden City to free them, thus starting the first blight.

Were the old gods always underground, or were they free at one point when the human were worshiping them?

I'm under the belief that the Maker is something that people true believers swear exists, but non-believers can have legitimate arguments against (much like with religions in the real world). But it seems that we know the old gods definatly exist, because they still get corrupted and turn into archdemons. So wouldn't that confirm that the Maker does, in fact, also exist, because the old gods sent the tevinters into the fade to free them from the Maker's imprisionment?

If the old gods were free at some point during human recollection, then that would proove the Maker existed, as people would know they were truly imprisoned. But if they were always underground....well, then no one can truly say what imprisoned them. But then the only way I can think of that this would make with the whole "sending the mages to the golden city to free them" thing,  is if the Old Gods are just "evil" by nature, and purposefully sent humans into the fade to taint them and create dark spawn - that they wanted to become archdemons.

Thoughts?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If the Old Gods were free at one point, then that wouldn't necessarily prove the esistence of the Maker, just that they were imprisoned by someone, somehow at some point.

Anyway, as far as recorded history goes I think the First Blight was the first time there is a record of an Old God being encountered first hand. But the Codex entry on the Old God says "Most scholars believe the Old Gods must have been real at some point."

Personally, my take on the subject is that the Old Gods were free at one point in the ancient past before recorded human history and imprisoned underground somehow by the time they contacted the first Tevinter Archon. Although that is just a guess on my part.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 octobre 2011 - 08:52 .

[whykikyouwhy]

The Maker is a piñata, stuffed with sugary sweet Old Gods. He is a single entity made up of many - just a catch-all name and title in order to repackage an older faith and panetheon.

The key thing is that he's filled with candy.

[TEWR]

not rotten twinkies?

[Gervaise]

There is no definitive proof the Maker exists. However, there does now seem to be definitive proof that the story given in the Chant of Light is largely true based on what Corypheus says in Legacy. So if Andraste got that bit right, may be she was telling the truth about hearing the Maker as well. Then again she was much closer in time to when the Magisters did the deed and so may have seen/heard other evidence that they left of what they did, that was later destroyed.

There seem to be a number of old cults among the humans. Whether they all related to the same set of gods is unclear. There are also the elven gods and the forgotten ones. There are a set of demons known as the forbidden ones associated with blood magic.

My own theory (partly based I will admit on the Chant of Light) is that various powerful demons crossed over from the Fade and possessed various life forms including dragons. Early humans worshipped these various "gods" and made offerings to them. At some point the dragon gods were either imprisoned or simply went underground (some suggest they went into a form of hibernation) and somehow got trapped there. I suspect that elves may have had something to do with this.

As humans developed, they seemed to acquire the ability to do magic. During their time in the Fade in their dreams these mages made contact with the mind of the dragon gods. Chief of these was Dumat who encouraged the mages to learn blood magic. This gave them the power to defeat the elves (possibly in revenge). Then the Magisters were further encouraged to enter the Fade - they seem to have been doing this partly to try and free the old gods, partly to try and achieve immortality (hence the accusation of aiming at godhood and usurping heaven). It all went horribly wrong - because physical beings are not meant to cross bodily into the spiritual realm. Did Dumat know this would happen? Was it an action of the Maker? Was it the action of some other spiritual being? Was the Archdemon that first appeared really Dumat? What is the connection with Flemeth to all this? Hopefully more will be revealled in the upcoming book and DA3.

[whykikyouwhy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

not rotten twinkies?

That's the City! The Maker is candy!

(or cheese)

[Drasanil]

I think the best proof of the Maker's existence (or at least something Maker like) we see would be Gaxkang's lines in DAO. Gaxkang is quite an old entity and gets rather agree when you discover him, stating that eyes are on you from very high and that he will not be a foot note and I very much doubt that something like Gaxkang would consider the likes of Loghain all that far up the 'on high' category.

[AlexXIV]

There is no proof for the Maker and neither for the Old Gods. Scholars claim that Archdemons are Old Gods, but that could as well be propaganda or simply wrong. Alistair is the best source of knowledge about the Old Gods, since he openly admits that not even the Wardens know. And if the Wardens don't know, then chances are nobody else does either.

The Maker could never have existed or in a completly different form and way as the Chantry preaches. And the Old Gods could just be dragons. All we really know is that Archdemons look like Dragons and that they are probably tainted, like all Darkspawn. You can of course discuss this on a philosophical level with alot of opinions, but we have nothing that can count as evidence as far as I know anyway. Also not for the Golden City and what happened. Chantry preaches the Magisters usurped Heaven. But all we know is that they went there and the **** hit the fan. We are not even exactly sure how the Blights are connected to the Black (formerly Golden) City. We know that Darkspawn 'spirits' don't go there. But neither do other spirits or demons. Obviously it's not a nice place. Nobody is really old enough to confirm that the city has ever been 'golden' or the seat of the Maker. Though it makes sense to assume that it wasn't always a bad place, and that something happened when the Magisters went there. Something evil.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 19 octobre 2011 - 09:55 .

[Vlad_Dracul]

Fen'Harel is a Maker, and after last Blight, he shall return and enslave the world for worship him

Creators are locked in Black City, Forgotten Ones are Old Gods, and they could communicate with mortals, so Dread Wolf must stop them by their puppets, magisters.

As Dalish said to you, Dread Wolf tricked both fractions. Creators imprisoned in heavens, Forgotten Ones in underground

- This is probably what is in Bioware heads

Modifié par Vlad_Dracul, 19 octobre 2011 - 09:54 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think the Architect's research is fairly good evidence in favor of the existence of the Old Gods and that they are the Archdemons. He even identified him as Urthemiel so presumably there is some way to identify one Old God from another if both The Architect and the surfacers both seemed to recognize him.

[Wulfram]

The Architect is our best source for the Archdemons being Old Gods, I think.

Of course, whether you consider the Old Gods truly divine is always going to be questionable. There's not really a clear dividing line between powerful magical beings and gods.

[BubbleDncr]

I suppose it's also possible that the Old Gods are the elven Forgotten Ones, and that the one who imprisoned them was Fen'Harel. And thus the one the Chantry calls the Maker is actually Fen'Harel. Tho it looks like other people have already talked about this: http://social.biowar...45119/1#8149907

[AlexXIV]

Wulfram wrote...

The Architect is our best source for the Archdemons being Old Gods, I think.

Of course, whether you consider the Old Gods truly divine is always going to be questionable. There's not really a clear dividing line between powerful magical beings and gods.

Yep, what I think too. I guess in DA it would be possible for one being to be or become so much more powerful than any other, that everyone would regard them as god. With magic alone little seems to be impossible already.

My most favorite theory is that the Maker has been a very powerful mage or magic user who died or got imprisoned or banned. And Flemeth is trying to inherit the throne now. Very cliche, very classic, very Bioware.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 19 octobre 2011 - 10:05 .

[BubbleDncr]

AlexXIV wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The Architect is our best source for the Archdemons being Old Gods, I think.

Of course, whether you consider the Old Gods truly divine is always going to be questionable. There's not really a clear dividing line between powerful magical beings and gods.

Yep, what I think too. I guess in DA it would be possible for one being to be or become so much more powerful than any other, that everyone would regard them as god. With magic alone little seems to be impossible already.

My most favorite theory is that the Maker has been a very powerful mage or magic user who died or got imprisoned or banned. And Flemeth is trying to inherit the throne now. Very cliche, very classic, very Bioware.

I've heard the theory that Flemth actually is Fen'Harel, so if every theory is correct, then Flemth is the Maker. Which I think is a little much, I like yours better.

[TEWR]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

not rotten twinkies?

That's the City! The Maker is candy!

(or cheese)

But what if the City is the inside of the Maker? What if the Maker is actually the Fade?

....nah that would just be weird for the Fade to be its own living thing. Besides, I like thinking that the Maker is cheese.

[AlexXIV]

BubbleDncr wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The Architect is our best source for the Archdemons being Old Gods, I think.

Of course, whether you consider the Old Gods truly divine is always going to be questionable. There's not really a clear dividing line between powerful magical beings and gods.

Yep, what I think too. I guess in DA it would be possible for one being to be or become so much more powerful than any other, that everyone would regard them as god. With magic alone little seems to be impossible already.

My most favorite theory is that the Maker has been a very powerful mage or magic user who died or got imprisoned or banned. And Flemeth is trying to inherit the throne now. Very cliche, very classic, very Bioware.

I've heard the theory that Flemth actually is Fen'Harel, so if every theory is correct, then Flemth is the Maker. Which I think is a little much, I like yours better.

Witch and wizard I tell you, here some pics as a proof.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 19 octobre 2011 - 10:21 .

[Blacklash93]

Wulfram wrote...
Of course, whether you consider the Old Gods truly divine is always going to be questionable. There's not really a clear dividing line between powerful magical beings and gods.

Gaider said the theme of what a god could/should/would be considered as is something he would like to explore.

[AlexXIV]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Of course, whether you consider the Old Gods truly divine is always going to be questionable. There's not really a clear dividing line between powerful magical beings and gods.

Gaider said the theme of what a god could/should/would be considered as is something he would like to explore.

Probably same as a high king or caesar, or pharao. If people accept you as such, you are it. After all history mostly happens in books for the next generation(s). So whatever is written in books is what it is.