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[Xilizhra]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The series makes it very clear that both religions has serious flaws and have done what can be considered "evil" deeds.

Well, yeah. I don't like either and would love to see them bleed each other to death.

It will be the people of Thedas that bleed to death. Superstitions can only be expelled through education. Which is why I support Empress Celene and the University of Orlais.

Perhaps the PC of DA3 will be the Johannes Gutenberg of Thedas.

I'd rather support Anora. At least she's not in charge of one of Thedas' three evil empires.

[katling73]

Legacy without a doubt. It was more relevant to Hawke and it didn't feature the most annoying character I've come across in the DAverse - Tallis. Even Anders was less annoying than her. Also the stealth in MotA was far too clunky, especially for someone who used to play Thief.

[Foolsfolly]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Assassin was more ambitious, but I believe Legacy was better. Assassin overreached badly with Tallis, and it's even worse that she's the most stark representative of evil to actually be in your party automatically. It's as bad as having to work with a loyalist templar and then being unable to prevent them from indulging in some anti-mage crap at the end.

*looks at Anders*

Oh god that had me laughing. And it's so true.

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The series makes it very clear that both religions has serious flaws and have done what can be considered "evil" deeds.

Well, yeah. I don't like either and would love to see them bleed each other to death.

It
will be the people of Thedas that bleed to death. Superstitions can
only be expelled through education. Which is why I support Empress
Celene and the University of Orlais.

Perhaps the PC of DA3 will be the Johannes Gutenberg of Thedas.

You really think the nobility wants education for the masses? Or in a more Dragon Age-y context, do you think humans want educated elves trying to leave the ghetto?

The best thing about Thedas is that there is no shining example of all that's right with the world. There is no Camelot. There is no Republic. I think they flirt with making things a bit too good (Redcliffe's rather nice... unless it's all dead and destroyed; Alistair's a great king... unless he's not.) . But those are mostly player choices and you can pretty easily keep this crapsack world as a crapsack world.

The setting for these games remains one of its strongest points. And I hope they continue down this path for the next game. I didn't like the finale of DA2 not because it was grimdark or I had to kill both sides but because madness and plot items overrode the more interesting human viewpoints. In the end Meredith isn't a monster because of your viewpoint contrasted by her own, but because a stone drove her mad.

I'd like them to keep with human viewpoints, wants, desires, and always ground motivation for all those involved. That includes the PC since BioWare protagonists apparently have no real motivations if they're not a part of some organization with a grand mission statement that spans a game.

[highcastle]

Filament wrote...

highcastle wrote...
There's also her willingness to work with mage!Hawke when the last Qunari who found out he was a saarebas tried to kill him on sight.

I would guess only the arvaraads are instilled with that level of superstition about mages. It's the only way the Arishok or Sten make any sense.

Not if you watch Redemption, apparently. At one point Tallis holds up a saarebas collar and says (paraphrasing here): "We Qunari know how to treat our animals." So at some point, that same level of fanaticism is present in her. Which is why it's jarring that it never comes up.

[macrocarl]

There was more lore in Legacy but MotA was so damn funny. Seriously, I have never played a funnier RPG. There's some real gold in the dialog/ cinematics. Also if you take Avaline and do her personal quest there's some big WTF stuff I hope they explain more in future DLC. All in all I got to say I like both for different reasons. When they iron out stealth a little more it will be even more awesomer to the max.

[haroldhardluck]

Joy Divison wrote...

The Chantry.  The Chantry didn't "allow" Petrice to murder Saemus.  In fact, the Chantry was going to submit their very own high official who was ostensibly acting in its interests to a non-Chantry court.

Edit: Oops...

Petrice had Saemus killed. By definition, she was allowed to murder him. This was only the latest act by her to forment war between humans and Qunari. So she got away with previous acts of murder.

The Chantry allows humans such as Keldar to kill elves without consequences. The incident that sparks the fighting at the end of Act 2 involves two elves who avenged a wrong done to them that the law ignored. There were elves who fought along side the Qunari.

The Qunari are much stricter in forcing their adherents to behave. That prevents loose canons like Petrice going around killing people. In return the Qunari provide order and equality for their adherents. Elves who join the Qun are treated as equals unlike their treatment under the Chantry.

So both religions have bad aspects and neither is more "evil" than the other. Tallis is doing for the Qun what the Watch and the Templars are doing for the Chantry. The difference is the Qun are more equitable in their enforcement. There are no Qunari Keldars getting away literally with murder due to family influence.

Harold

[naledgeborn]

highcastle wrote...

Not if you watch Redemption, apparently. At one point Tallis holds up a saarebas collar and says (paraphrasing here): "We Qunari know how to treat our animals." So at some point, that same level of fanaticism is present in her. Which is why it's jarring that it never comes up.

90° turn for me. I can now safely say that I hate her.

[Macropodmum]

I enjoyed Mota but I think that I liked Legacy better. Mota felt like a diversion compared to Legacy but on the same token I enjoyed the scenery of Mota much more...

[PantheraOnca]

If i can get deus ex stealth/non-lethal gameplay in my DA lore, i will be a HAPPY HAPPY camper.

(i enjoyed legacy more mainly because it felt like there was more game to it, but that could totally be a perception thing)

[Nimrodell]

Personally I find Legacy much more interesting and better - what can I say, I'm not into 'Orlesians' and I am in fact more interested in darkspawn, their origin and first violation. I didn't find Tallis a compelling character. MotA is really good and fun DLC, but for me, Legacy was something that I'm actually interested in. Though, I must admit, my opinion is really not objective one - I do have problem with finding Orlesians fun and I'm annoyed by their accent and decadency - just not my cup of tea I guess.

[haroldhardluck]

katling73 wrote...
Also the stealth in MotA was far too clunky, especially for someone who used to play Thief.

The problem with sneaking through the castle is a thief has no more ability than a warrior or mage. There should be multiple ways to get pass the guards. A thief can go into stealth mode and walk pass the guards. A mage can cast an appropriate spell to distract the guards. The warrior can use stone throwing to knock out all the guards and not just a few special ones. The one size fits all method does not work well. Each class should have its special way through the castle.

Plus the idea that a mage can sneak like a thief is not plausible. Although it is plausible that a warrior has some sneak skills from scouting and night attacks experience.

Harold

[highcastle]

haroldhardluck wrote...

Plus the idea that a mage can sneak like a thief is not plausible. Although it is plausible that a warrior has some sneak skills from scouting and night attacks experience.

Just to play devil's advocate, I'd argue it's more plausible for a mage to have sneaking skills than a warrior, especially an apostate. You have to figure they're used to sneaking around the templars already, they tend to wear lighter armor (I can't see any warriors in full plate being hired as scouts), and there's no reason they can't be involved in night attacks.

Though I agree with you that class specific stealth paths would have been interesting. 

[Sir Edric]

Legacy was interesting as a whole. The connection to Hawke, his/her sibling and Malcolm. Plus it contained Wardens which I like very much (obviously).

MotA I enjoyed more. Mostly b/c of the puzzles, enviroment, much more dialog heavy, but mostly it was the humour. I cried out of laugher during this part.

[Cutlass Jack]

Filament wrote...

Shale mentioned Wilhelm having spells to keep hidden... the mad mage in the forest could make illusionary misdirections... it's certainly in the realm of possibility for things like invisibility for mages to be stealthy. That's why I want an Arcane Trickster spec.

Also the mage 'teleporting' in DA2 was supposed to be really an illusionary misdirection rather than a true teleport. (invisibility/distraction + speed burst)

So certainly within the realm of possibility.

[haroldhardluck]

highcastle wrote...
You have to figure they're used to sneaking around the templars already, they tend to wear lighter armor (I can't see any warriors in full plate being hired as scouts), and there's no reason they can't be involved in night attacks.

There is sneaking and there is sneaking. As mage Hawke tells Fenris, "What is one more mage in the Goal?" when the two first enter the Goal together. For a mage, hiding from the Templars would be more like hiding in plain sight than sneaking around like a thief.

It is not unusual for a warrior to scout out an attack route beforehand. So a warrior does not have to be a full time scout to have scouting experience. Any warrior will wear padding under their armor to prevent getting their skin rubbed raw. So they always have something that can be used as light armor.

Harold

[Jedi Master of Orion]

haroldhardluck wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

The Chantry.  The Chantry didn't "allow" Petrice to murder Saemus.  In fact, the Chantry was going to submit their very own high official who was ostensibly acting in its interests to a non-Chantry court.

Edit: Oops...

Petrice had Saemus killed. By definition, she was allowed to murder him. This was only the latest act by her to forment war between humans and Qunari. So she got away with previous acts of murder.

The Chantry allows humans such as Keldar to kill elves without consequences. The incident that sparks the fighting at the end of Act 2 involves two elves who avenged a wrong done to them that the law ignored. There were elves who fought along side the Qunari.

The Qunari are much stricter in forcing their adherents to behave. That prevents loose canons like Petrice going around killing people. In return the Qunari provide order and equality for their adherents. Elves who join the Qun are treated as equals unlike their treatment under the Chantry.

So both religions have bad aspects and neither is more "evil" than the other. Tallis is doing for the Qun what the Watch and the Templars are doing for the Chantry. The difference is the Qun are more equitable in their enforcement. There are no Qunari Keldars getting away literally with murder due to family influence.

Harold

The Chantry isn't in charge of the civil laws of each nation. They aren't in charge of the alienages. Petrice and Kelder weren't "allowed" to murder people by the Chantry. If you want to blame the authority for failing to stop murder then blame the city guard. And since they offically answer to secular authority that must mean that all human society itself allows murder. Therefore humans must be evil.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 21 octobre 2011 - 10:57 .

[Macropodmum]

Vrex_12 wrote...

Legacy was interesting as a whole. The connection to Hawke, his/her sibling and Malcolm. Plus it contained Wardens which I like very much (obviously).

MotA I enjoyed more. Mostly b/c of the puzzles, enviroment, much more dialog heavy, but mostly it was the humour. I cried out of laugher during this part.

Thanks for sharing it gave me a good laugh 

[haroldhardluck]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Chantry isn't in charge of the civil laws of each nation. They aren't in charge of the alienages. Petrice and Kelder weren't "allowed" to murder people by the Chantry. If you want to blame the authority for failing to stop murder then blame the city guard. And since they offically answer to secular authority that must mean that all human society itself allows murder. Therefore humans must be evil.

Therein lies a major difference between the Qun and the Chantry. The Qun controls all aspects of Qunari life. The Chantry does not. However Petrice as a member of the Chantry is totally bound by the rules of the Chantry as much as any Qunari is bound by the Qun. So her activities are in direct violation of Chantry rules and due to lax Chantry enforcements of its own rules. As for Keldar, the Chantry is responsible for the moral conduct of its followers and therefore indirectly the actions of the secular authorities.  The widespread bigotry against the elves is a direct result of past Chantry Exalted Marches against the elves and is directly responsible for the current state of human discrimination against elves. So all responsibilities can be traced back to the teachings of the Chantry even though it does not have the same direct control over humans as the Qun.

Harold

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The elves worship the Maker now. There is no doctrine in the Chantry that is racist against elves. Humans are bigoted against Elves for non religious reasons. Elves were treated as slaves before there ever was a Chantry, so the roots of the discrimination against elves predates the Chantry by a very long time. The existence of a corrupt magistrate doesn't cast blame on the whole Chantry or the whole of Kirkwall. To suggest so is absurd. There are morally dubious individuals everywhere and in every society. You could find similar examples everywhere in Thedas. You can only be responsible for yourself as Justice put it. It is not the Chantry's fault he exists.

[haroldhardluck]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The elves worship the Maker now. There is no doctrine in the Chantry that is racist against elves.

Only city elves worship the maker. Dalish elves continue to worship their old gods and are still regarded by the Chantry as heretics. And as Act 2 shows, many city elves are converting to the Qun.

Harold

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I was talking about the City Elves because I think they are the topic at hand. City Elves aren't discriminated against because of the Dalish Elves. The Dalish are a separate entity. The elves in the cities are treated differently but still facing prejudice because they are elves even though they overwhelmingly have the same religion as the humans who rule the cities. Also City Elves are only converting to the Qun if they are regularly exposed to Qunari, outside of Tevinter that is very rare.

[Selej]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I was talking about the City Elves because I think they are the topic at hand. City Elves aren't discriminated against because of the Dalish Elves. The Dalish are a separate entity. The elves in the cities are treated differently but still facing prejudice because they are elves even though they overwhelmingly have the same religion as the humans who rule the cities. Also City Elves are only converting to the Qun if they are regularly exposed to Qunari, outside of Tevinter that is very rare.

It is rare because they don't know about it. Those that do, are converting to the Qun. You can't fault those city elves who do not know of it, but the ones that do, seem to perfer the Qun to the Chantry.

Both systems has their flaws but overall, the Qun seems to look out for their own more so than the Chantry. Well unless you're a mage...then everyone hates you

[DRTJR]

I would have preferred MoA if it was a strait up heist DLC. but with Legacy I thought it kicked major ass.

[Auroras]

naledgeborn wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Not if you watch Redemption, apparently. At one point Tallis holds up a saarebas collar and says (paraphrasing here): "We Qunari know how to treat our animals." So at some point, that same level of fanaticism is present in her. Which is why it's jarring that it never comes up.

90° turn for me. I can now safely say that I hate her.

I don't hate her... but after watching that part, I dislike her a lot more.