107 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Selej wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I was talking about the City Elves because I think they are the topic at hand. City Elves aren't discriminated against because of the Dalish Elves. The Dalish are a separate entity. The elves in the cities are treated differently but still facing prejudice because they are elves even though they overwhelmingly have the same religion as the humans who rule the cities. Also City Elves are only converting to the Qun if they are regularly exposed to Qunari, outside of Tevinter that is very rare.

It is rare because they don't know about it. Those that do, are converting to the Qun. You can't fault those city elves who do not know of it, but the ones that do, seem to perfer the Qun to the Chantry.

Both systems has their flaws but overall, the Qun seems to look out for their own more so than the Chantry. Well unless you're a mage...then everyone hates you

I don't think two elves seeking to flee injustice with no other choice constitutes a mass elven tendency to convert to the qun.

[haroldhardluck]

Lord Aesir wrote...
I don't think two elves seeking to flee injustice with no other choice constitutes a mass elven tendency to convert to the qun.

It was far more than just two elves. In the actual fighting, the Qunari had elven allies fighting along side them.  So those two elves were only the latest elves to convert.

Harold

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That's because there was a Qunari uprising there. I don't even know if the implication was that those were elves who genuinely converted to the Qun or elves that wanted to be free of human oppression. It was said that some elves preferred Qunari rule because they briefly became equal citizens but the Qun isn't necessarily a perfect fit for elves. The Alienages have a rich culture which they would have to abandon in order to become Qunari. That isn't something I expect would appeal to the majority of City Elves.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Auroras wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Not if you watch Redemption, apparently. At one point Tallis holds up a saarebas collar and says (paraphrasing here): "We Qunari know how to treat our animals." So at some point, that same level of fanaticism is present in her. Which is why it's jarring that it never comes up.

90° turn for me. I can now safely say that I hate her.

I don't hate her... but after watching that part, I dislike her a lot more.

She is talking about the Saarebas (character) which, with his use of blood thralls and the like, is only a little better than an animal in my eyes, so she is still cool.

[Morroian]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Auroras wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Not if you watch Redemption, apparently. At one point Tallis holds up a saarebas collar and says (paraphrasing here): "We Qunari know how to treat our animals." So at some point, that same level of fanaticism is present in her. Which is why it's jarring that it never comes up.

90° turn for me. I can now safely say that I hate her.

I don't hate her... but after watching that part, I dislike her a lot more.

She is talking about the Saarebas (character) which, with his use of blood thralls and the like, is only a little better than an animal in my eyes, so she is still cool.

My interpretation of that scene was that she was deliberately exaggerrating for effect. Although obviously she agrees with the Qun on magic.

[themonty72]

Legacy vs Mota. I like Legacy because it deals with Hawke.. Face it Mota was Talis DLC co-starring Hawke

[jaybee93]

I preferred Legacy because it made sense on one playthrough, and then I could go ahead and appreciate further playthroughs. With MOTA, I've played it once and there are weirdo plotholes, like the statues that apparently connect to Isabella, & Tallis knowing Leliana. Of course I like to get more out of a story on multiple playthroughs and I love playing through more than once, but I shouldn't feel confused and unsatisfied after just one game. Something about the balance was a bit off in MOTA.

I still enjoyed it, though--for the record.

[haroldhardluck]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

That's because there was a Qunari uprising there. I don't even know if the implication was that those were elves who genuinely converted to the Qun or elves that wanted to be free of human oppression. It was said that some elves preferred Qunari rule because they briefly became equal citizens but the Qun isn't necessarily a perfect fit for elves. The Alienages have a rich culture which they would have to abandon in order to become Qunari. That isn't something I expect would appeal to the majority of City Elves.

The fallacy of this argument is obvious when applied to American blacks in their pre-Civil Rights ghettos. Yes they had a rich culture but it was one born of repression and discrimination. For many American blacks, when an opportunity came to convert to Islam, they took it and became Black Muslims rejecting the Christianity of their oppressors. So it is very plausible that city elves, given the choice of converting to the Qun, would do so in large numbers and reject the religion of their oppressors.

Harold

[haroldhardluck]

themonty72 wrote...

Legacy vs Mota. I like Legacy because it deals with Hawke.. Face it Mota was Talis DLC co-starring Hawke

Very true but MotA had the more interesting game play. Legacy was bascically a simple dungeon crawl while MotA had the more complex story. Besides the Orlais countryside is so much more beautiful than the waste land of Legacy. ;-)

Harold

[Jedi Master of Orion]

haroldhardluck wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

That's because there was a Qunari uprising there. I don't even know if the implication was that those were elves who genuinely converted to the Qun or elves that wanted to be free of human oppression. It was said that some elves preferred Qunari rule because they briefly became equal citizens but the Qun isn't necessarily a perfect fit for elves. The Alienages have a rich culture which they would have to abandon in order to become Qunari. That isn't something I expect would appeal to the majority of City Elves.

The fallacy of this argument is obvious when applied to American blacks in their pre-Civil Rights ghettos. Yes they had a rich culture but it was one born of repression and discrimination. For many American blacks, when an opportunity came to convert to Islam, they took it and became Black Muslims rejecting the Christianity of their oppressors. So it is very plausible that city elves, given the choice of converting to the Qun, would do so in large numbers and reject the religion of their oppressors.

Harold

Black Muslims didn't have to abandon their family units to convert. The game gives us a clear example of some elves hating the Qunari because the converts abandoned their old culture. But this is all besides the point anyway, the main point is that elves convert to the Qun because they are oppressed by humans, not the other way around.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 octobre 2011 - 10:48 .

[dragonflight288]

Mark of the Assassin is superior in my humble opinion for one simple reason.

[Heimdall]

haroldhardluck wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
I don't think two elves seeking to flee injustice with no other choice constitutes a mass elven tendency to convert to the qun.

It was far more than just two elves. In the actual fighting, the Qunari had elven allies fighting along side them.  So those two elves were only the latest elves to convert.

Harold

Really?  I'd forgotten...  Still, I don't think there is great tendency for elves to abandon what little of their ancient culture remains and all family ties.

[Heimdall]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

haroldhardluck wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

That's because there was a Qunari uprising there. I don't even know if the implication was that those were elves who genuinely converted to the Qun or elves that wanted to be free of human oppression. It was said that some elves preferred Qunari rule because they briefly became equal citizens but the Qun isn't necessarily a perfect fit for elves. The Alienages have a rich culture which they would have to abandon in order to become Qunari. That isn't something I expect would appeal to the majority of City Elves.

The fallacy of this argument is obvious when applied to American blacks in their pre-Civil Rights ghettos. Yes they had a rich culture but it was one born of repression and discrimination. For many American blacks, when an opportunity came to convert to Islam, they took it and became Black Muslims rejecting the Christianity of their oppressors. So it is very plausible that city elves, given the choice of converting to the Qun, would do so in large numbers and reject the religion of their oppressors.

Harold

Black Muslims didn't have to abandon their family units to convert. The game gives us a clear example of some elves hating the Qunari because the converts abandoned their old culture. But this is all besides the point anyway, the main point is that elves convert to the Qun because they are oppressed by humans, not the other way around.

They also don't even have to abandon the entirety of their culture.  The Qun however demands all it's converts come in as a blank slate.  That just isn't something people will do lightly, elves or not.

[KotorEffect3]

I liked MoTA's gameplay and humor and I liked Legacy's story and antagonist. In the end I will have to go with Legacy it had the personal family story with Hawke and it involved the sibling nicely and then had an antagonist where it was revealed he was one of the magisters that tainted the golden city and brought about the darkspawn and blights. Hard to beat that for epicness.

[R-F]

I liked them both pretty equally. Wasn't looking forward to it at all but it turned out to be a pretty fun romp in the wilderness. I also really enjoyed Merrill saying she was glad to be out of the city and how Kirkwall really all felt the same. I snorted at that line.

[haroldhardluck]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
Black Muslims didn't have to abandon their family units to convert.

Care to cite a reference for this statement as it is contrary to what I know about how the religion operated. A key feature of the Black Muslim movement was isolationism from mainstream society and that included their family units that did not convert.

But this is all besides the point anyway, the main point is that elves convert to the Qun because they are oppressed by humans, not the other way around.

Which is the point I was making from the very beginning. I do not of anyone on any side of this discussion who thought that humans were oppressed by elves. The only point of disagreement was how many elves converted. My position was it was far more than the two that started the war at the end of Act 2.

Harold

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Muslims have parents and spouses and children. Qunari do not.

What I meant by "the other way around" was that humans are not oppressing elves because they convert to the Qun. Elves that do convert do so because of existing oppression. My point was that human oppression of elves is not based on their religion.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 28 octobre 2011 - 11:15 .

[haroldhardluck]

Lord Aesir wrote...
They also don't even have to abandon the entirety of their culture.  The Qun however demands all it's converts come in as a blank slate.  That just isn't something people will do lightly, elves or not.

Black Muslims pretty much had to renounce the entirety of their old culture. Muslims live by a different code of laws known as Sharia law. It was a code where women were subservient totally to men. Halal laws applied.  The whole point of the Black Muslim movement was to totally renounce the "white man's" culture that had been imposed on the black slaves.

Harold

[kheldorin]

haroldhardluck wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
They also don't even have to abandon the entirety of their culture.  The Qun however demands all it's converts come in as a blank slate.  That just isn't something people will do lightly, elves or not.

Black Muslims pretty much had to renounce the entirety of their old culture. Muslims live by a different code of laws known as Sharia law. It was a code where women were subservient totally to men. Halal laws applied.  The whole point of the Black Muslim movement was to totally renounce the "white man's" culture that had been imposed on the black slaves.

Harold

Not true in practise though. People pick and choose what they want from religion or they interprete it differently or certain apects are less emphasized. Part of it is being influenced by their culture. Muslims in China live their lives differently than Muslims in Britain. Even in the Middle East, some of the states are more progressive than others. Visually, I think Muslim weddings are the most obvious example. The way they celebrate, the clothes they wear are so different. It's just so heavily influenced by their race and culture.

Modifié par kheldorin, 30 octobre 2011 - 10:16 .

[BBK4114]

themonty72 wrote...

Legacy vs Mota. I like Legacy because it deals with Hawke.. Face it Mota was Talis DLC co-starring Hawke

This...

and the fact I felt as though I was playing through the cartoon TMNT.  Seriously the humor was juvenile - or at least unsophisticated. There was no threat just cartoon-y monsters like the ghasts (wtf were they thinking here?) The over-the-top animations and voices of the Orlesians did NOT make me think of Monty Python (dream on Gaider.) Felicia Day's VO was lukewarm.  The puzzles were too easy-color matching really?  Lack of choice sucked.  I've had enough of the forced on us Leliana, thanks. (Why does she look 15 years younger than in DA:O, btw?)

To me it was like they took one step forward in Legacy and two steps back in MotA.  Yet even so, I enjoyed playing it. However DA has become just a game, not an immersing RPG.

Modifié par BBK4114, 30 octobre 2011 - 04:30 .

[haroldhardluck]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
Muslims have parents and spouses and children. Qunari do not.

So very wrong. MotA makes it clear that all the Quanris seen in the games are warriors and that the non-warriors Quanris are just like the non-warrior people in other religions. They have parents, spouses, children and work as farmers, tradesmen, etc.

What I meant by "the other way around" was that humans are not oppressing elves because they convert to the Qun. Elves that do convert do so because of existing oppression. My point was that human oppression of elves is not based on their religion.

Again you are making a point that no disputes and no has brought up except you. You are arguing with yourself here.

Harold

[Jedi Master of Orion]

1 - I was responding to this:

haroldhardluck wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The elves worship the Maker now. There is no doctrine in the Chantry that is racist against elves.

Only city elves worship the maker. Dalish elves continue to worship their old gods and are still regarded by the Chantry as heretics. And as Act 2 shows, many city elves are converting to the Qun.

Harold

Since I was saying that the Chantry isn't specifically biased against elves and you replied with this, I figured you were trying to contest that claim.

2 - No you are wrong. The Devs have made it clear that Qunari do not have family units the same way that the rest of Thedas does. Did you listen to anything Sten said in the first game? He didn't even know what the word "parents" was. He also said that children are raised by the Tammassans.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 30 octobre 2011 - 05:51 .

[haroldhardluck]

kheldorin wrote...
Not true in practise though. People pick and choose what they want from religion or they interprete it differently or certain apects are less emphasized. Part of it is being influenced by their culture. Muslims in China live their lives differently than Muslims in Britain. Even in the Middle East, some of the states are more progressive than others. Visually, I think Muslim weddings are the most obvious example. The way they celebrate, the clothes they wear are so different. It's just so heavily influenced by their race and culture.

You do not seem to know much about how Muslims live. Certain aspect of Muslim life such as the halal rules are universal. Chinese muslims have to abide by halal rules as much as Black Muslims as Egyptian Muslims etc.. Fasting during Ramadan is universal and the when Ramadan comes around is based on the lunar calendar used by Mohammend regardless of the legal calender of the Muslim's country. While the burka is culture specific, all Muslim women are expected to cover their head with large scarfs. While many Muslim women do not wear such scarfs, it is a deliberate decision that they know is in defiance of their religious tenets. And depending on where they are, they also know that can be punished for it. Countries such as Saudi Arabia and Iran have "morality" police who look for such women and punish them for being too "western".

These are just the obvious rules that Muslims live by. One of the main sources of income for Muslim clerics is interpreting the rules set forth in the Koran. The Koran has specific rules as to what property women can own and whenever something comes along that is not mention, such as stocks and bonds, a cleric has to rules whether it is covered by the Koran. (In general the rulings are if it is not specifically mentioned, women cannot own it.)

Going back to the subject of this forum, this means the large set of rules governing the Qunaris is not that unusual. The Koran has many such rules. The 10 Commandments are only the first 10 of several hundred commandments in the Old Testament. So there is nothing unusual or evil about the Qun and all its rules.


Harold

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I grew up in a Muslim country. They aren't some unified collective of opinions. The culture in one country will always be different than one in another.

[haroldhardluck]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
2 - No you are wrong. The Devs have made it clear that Qunari do not have family units the same way that the rest of Thedas does. Did you listen to anything Sten said in the first game? He didn't even know what the word "parents" was. He also said that children are raised by the Tammassans.

This differs from what Tallis says in MotA. There are several possibilities for the differences. The Quanris mentioned by Tallis are sleeper agents and could be abiding by local customs to blend in. However if they do this, how true can they be to the Qun? The other possibility is what only warriors are raised in the manner described.  Or the Devs have changed their minds as they realized that their original idea does not allow for farmers, artisans and other professions that are needed to support a warrior "race". Or the practice only applies to kossiths.

The Qunari life style looks remarkably like the old Spartan life style and that life style is based on the slave labor of the helots who do everything. Once the helots were able to successfully revolt with the help of the Thebans, Sparta died because they did not know how farm or even maintain their weapons and armor on their own. The Qunaris that we see in the games cannot exist in their own homeland for the same reasons that Spartans could not exist once their helots successfully rebelled.

Personally I think the Devs got caught up with a Clever Idea and did not think out the consequences in DAO and are only now coming to see that the Quanri society  is not viable as originally presented, especially if they accept converts who are not kossiths.


Harold