56 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

ending the curse is better for everyone ... OK almost everyone. My only point is that Zathrian and to a greater degree Caladrius, are proof that magic needs some kind of check and balance, if only so that those mages who are capable of controlling themselves arent forever tainted by the actions of a dangerous minority.

I wasn't saying go around and give mages the right to practice Blood Magic, but more like the Tevinter System where mages have freedom as long as they don't turn towards the forbidden arts.

The Tevinter just say that they don't allow blood magic to avoid starting something with everyone else's Chantry but we really didn't see any evidence that they followed through on that and Caladrius was pretty ope about his blood magic, wasn't he? 

[Herr Uhl]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

ending the curse is better for everyone ... OK almost everyone. My only point is that Zathrian and to a greater degree Caladrius, are proof that magic needs some kind of check and balance, if only so that those mages who are capable of controlling themselves arent forever tainted by the actions of a dangerous minority.

I wasn't saying go around and give mages the right to practice Blood Magic, but more like the Tevinter System where mages have freedom as long as they don't turn towards the forbidden arts.

The Tevinter just say that they don't allow blood magic to avoid starting something with everyone else's Chantry but we really didn't see any evidence that they followed through on that and Caladrius was pretty ope about his blood magic, wasn't he? 

The Fereldan blood mages were pretty open about it too. At least once you had them cornered.

He doesn't prove that much.

[Costin_Razvan]

Caladrius was a Slaver, and even though such things are allowed in Tevinter, he doesn't strike as someone you want to base your opinion on regarding the whole country.

[Sarah1281]

And he's buying the slaves partly to use in blood magic rituals. Not to mention that everyone already suspects they do blood magic anyway.

[Costin_Razvan]

That's just suspicion fueled by the Chantry so they can have a reason to start exalted marches against them.

He isn't selling slaves for Blood Magic rituals, he only gives that option of using them to increase your health when you almost kill him.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 22 mai 2010 - 05:42 .

[BHRamsay]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Caladrius was a Slaver, and even though such things are allowed in Tevinter, he doesn't strike as someone you want to base your opinion on regarding the whole country.

Thats the argument of a calm rational person...from what little we hear of her, the Grand Cleric doesn not strike me as either calm or rational.

if you help either Dagna or Burkle then the game ends with talk of an Exalted March against Orzamarr, i don't need DLC to tell me that would be all kinds of bad.

[Costin_Razvan]

I thought the Grand Cleric was present at the Landsmeet? Just a thought.

[Herr Uhl]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I thought the Grand Cleric was present at the Landsmeet? Just a thought.

The Grand Cleric resides in Val Rouyeaux (probably misspelled).

Edit: Or at least whomever it is that sends Exhalted Marches.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 22 mai 2010 - 05:52 .

[Sarah1281]

She was but all she said was 'Do not think that the Chantry will not overlook interference in a Templar's sacred duty, Teyrn Loghain' or something like that.

[RogueWriter3201]

BHRamsay wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Caladrius was a Slaver, and even though such things are allowed in Tevinter, he doesn't strike as someone you want to base your opinion on regarding the whole country.

Thats the argument of a calm rational person...from what little we hear of her, the Grand Cleric doesn not strike me as either calm or rational.

if you help either Dagna or Burkle then the game ends with talk of an Exalted March against Orzamarr, i don't need DLC to tell me that would be all kinds of bad.

If you read the Epilogue card closely, it speaks of Burkle being brutally beaten to Death by a mob in Orzammar; for this very public Murder, the Grand Cleric "Contemplaits" an Exalted March; she never actually calls for one. Also, you have to factor in advisors who may have suggested the plan to Her, and so on. The fact that the GC doesn't act on the March speaks well for Her mindset. Also, the head of Fereldan/Orlesian Chantry and the Male Head of the Tevinter Chantry are in two different worlds, so comparing one to the other might not be the best thing.

[Costin_Razvan]

Ahm... the DIVINE in Orlais contemplates, not the Grand Cleric of Fereldan.

[RogueWriter3201]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Ahm... the DIVINE in Orlais contemplates, not the Grand Cleric of Fereldan.

Ah! Thank you. Still, my point remains vastly the same, no?

[Herr Uhl]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Ahm... the DIVINE in Orlais contemplates, not the Grand Cleric of Fereldan.

OKAY, WRITING IN CAPITAL LETTERS IS NECESSARY. I know how it works but I don't know what they are named.

Every country has one high priest or whatever you call it, their version of a bishop. Then we have the higher guys in Orlais, the ones who resides in the Vatican in the real world. They would be the ones to decide, that was my point.

[old book]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

ending the curse is better for everyone ... OK almost everyone. My only point is that Zathrian and to a greater degree Caladrius, are proof that magic needs some kind of check and balance, if only so that those mages who are capable of controlling themselves arent forever tainted by the actions of a dangerous minority.

I wasn't saying go around and give mages the right to practice Blood Magic, but more like the Tevinter System where mages have freedom as long as they don't turn towards the forbidden arts.

It's an interesting problem.

There has to be a balance. In the Circle Tower system Mages are taken from their families as children; bullied and abused; watched constantly; have their children taken from them; are imprisoned save when on officially santioned business; and can be hunted down, tortured and killed if they dare to stand up for themselves. It's also implied that female mages are subjected to sexual harasment and possible abuse from the templars. They're treated like slaves.

You can't say that's the only way to stop Mages from becoming abominations. The Dalish and Tevinter mages seem to do fine without that kind of systematic abuse, and even the crazy bloodmage hermit in the forest hasn't become an abomination. The Tevinter empire didn't fall because of a huge mass of abominations turning up.

Morrigan was kind of right. The only abomination wave we see is in the Circle Tower.

Even the whole "Bloodmages became Darkspawn" thing is subject to question; it's what the Chantry claims, but the Dwarves seem to disagree.

Letting Mages summon demons and suck down the blood of the populace isn't a better deal, but it's not the only alternative.

Something like "Mages are allowed to police themselves" would be nice. I like to think it's what happens if the PC asks Alistair to allow the Mages more freedom.

[BHRamsay]

The travinter mages are fine? Yeah except for guys like Caladrius who if he isn't operating with sanction from his government, if he wasn't going to ship the elves back to Imperium then his action and plans for the slaves are even more suspect.



The Dalish? Zathrian is responsible for a curse that while it was active effected many, many lives. those people not infected with the curse were killed while those who were infected went on to kill and infect others in their beastial rage. Even if you assume some conservative estimate of how many people would have been infected versus how many people might have been killed over the course of hundreds of years the numbers start getting scary



The plight of the mages is sad, especially with guys like Cullen creeping around, But can we at least acknowledge there is good solid reason to be afraid of what happens when a mage goes off the rails

[Costin_Razvan]

The fact he is a sanctioned slaver does not make him a sanctioned Blood Mage, remember that.

Seriously, you are generalizing based on the actions of two men. I for one believe in what the Collective of Mages does, who hunts down Blood Mages but is free from the Chantry.

The circle does not stop apostates from existing, as evidenced by the maleficar in the Brecillian Forest.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 22 mai 2010 - 08:24 .

[BHRamsay]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Seriously, you are generalizing based on the actions of two men. I for one believe in what the Collective of Mages does, who hunts down Blood Mages but is free from the Chantry.

No i'm generalizing based on the action of about a half a dozen people who it could be argued are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of innocents across a span of years stretching back centuries ... I only choose to mention two of them.

You on the other hand are investing a huge amount of faith in a shadowy organization whose motives and method you are never allowed to test or investigate like you are the chantry--- but hey that works for you so hakuna matata

I still think a little oversight is needed, maybe not the near paranoia that exists as of the start of the game but a healthy understanding that people with power inevitably want more and will sometimes do questionable things to get it. 

[Emerald Melios]

I imagine the "abomination" threat is largely propagated by the Chantry as a scare tactic so they can keep magi oppressed. If they're going to keep templars drug addled to control them, it seems likely that they would also ensure some mages turn into abominations so they can justify totalitarian control.



Considering their prophetess Andraste herself was a mage, the hypocrisy is astounding.

[Costin_Razvan]

I still think a little oversight is needed

I didn't say there shouldn't be. It is my belief that mages should police themselves, not have the templars watch their every move. As Leliana puts it: I would not have even an animal live like this. Obviously it's hypocrisy coming from her, but still her point is good.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 23 mai 2010 - 01:41 .

[asaiasai]

I usually do the nice way and lift the curse but in my Dalish origin i sided with Zathrian and killed the lady of the forest. Finishing that play through was for the most part a relief, i really hated doing that. I think that siding with either side instead of lifting the curse is considered the evil way to play as both sides are guilty in some way or another. The humans are guilty for killing his children, Zathrian is guilty for using blood magic to form his curse, lying to his people about the truth behind his longevity, and failure in his duty as keeper to safeguard his people from harm, neither side's hands are clean.



Asai

[old book]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I still think a little oversight is needed

I didn't say there shouldn't be. It is my belief that mages should police themselves, not have the templars watch their every move. As Leliana puts it: I would not have even an animal live like this. Obviously it's hypocrisy coming from her, but still her point is good.

Yup. It's a false dichotomy to say that the only choices are "Things as they are" or "Let mages use blood magic to abuse mundanes". I haven't seen anyone in thread advocating either option.

I can understand the POV of mundanes in the DA setting. (Blood) Mages can control minds. That is way more frightening than being able to burn your face off. Anyone can kill you given a weapon (or just enough training), and it's easy to organize and pass laws to minimize the risks. Mind control? You might never know. Add in the fact that the non-Mages in the setting know historically (the chantry makes sure) how the populace was abused when Mages ruled. Fear and hate are natural reactions.

And so we get the the Circle Mages, taken from their families, imprisoned, verbally and sometimes physically abused, under constant observation, under constant threat of execution, told from childhood that they are monsters. Those that turn to Blood Magic to strike back against the Chantry aren't the weak ones; they're the ones that somehow haven't completely broken.

Far better the modern Tevinter or Dalish paths. Yes, you'll get criminal mages, but you always get criminals in every group. That has to be dealt with, but the ways the Chantry or Qunari deal with it are totalitarian garbage. They also set up a situation where rebellion is almost inevitable.

[Emerald Melios]

Indeed, people like that spiteful Revered Mother at Ostagar are responsible for Uldred going off the deep end. Too bad you never get any dialogue options to suggest the Chantry pushed Uldred into a corner and turned him into a pride demon.

[BHRamsay]

Emerald Melios wrote...

Indeed, people like that spiteful Revered Mother at Ostagar are responsible for Uldred going off the deep end. Too bad you never get any dialogue options to suggest the Chantry pushed Uldred into a corner and turned him into a pride demon.

You can always have that conversation with one of the first bloodmages you encounter...

You might recall her as the one who tries to KILL you, before groveling for her life while blaming everyone else for FORCING her to kill templars and leaving her fellow apprentices (the ones she claims she is trying to free) to be consumed by demons.

She even manages to compare her actions to those of Andraste. 

[Emerald Melios]

BHRamsay wrote...

Emerald Melios wrote...

Indeed, people like that spiteful Revered Mother at Ostagar are responsible for Uldred going off the deep end. Too bad you never get any dialogue options to suggest the Chantry pushed Uldred into a corner and turned him into a pride demon.

You can always have that conversation with one of the first bloodmages you encounter...

You might recall her as the one who tries to KILL you, before groveling for her life while blaming everyone else for FORCING her to kill templars and leaving her fellow apprentices (the ones she claims she is trying to free) to be consumed by demons.

She even manages to compare her actions to those of Andraste. 

I wish she could've been recruited as a mage companion instead of Wynne.