83 réponses à ce sujet

[Sifr]

While playing MotA for the second time, it got me thinking about all the times in the game that seem to hint that Hawke actually acts in a similar role to members of the Qunari.

We see this strange comparison as early as Act I, when Hawke hunts the Tal-vashoth and acts in a guardian role towards Ketojan. Afterwards, he calls Hawke bas-Arvaraad, which we know is their equivalent to a Templar. He even states that if Hawke submitted to the Qun, their role would not greatly change.

Later upon become the bas-alitan to the Arishok, we get that conversation where he muses that without the guidance of the Qun to give them principles, the Qunari would probably be similar to Hawke.

Then there is Taarbas, the Qunari who asks you to recover their lost blades. Afterwards, he calls Hawke Ben-Hassrath and bequeaths them a weapon with the instruction to guard it or lose all honour. When we remember what Sten said about Asala being symbolic of one's own soul, this seems to be a rather strange gift for them to give to someone outside of the Qun. That he calls you Ben-Hassrath also seems strange as we know that they are the defenders of the Qunari people and their faith.

Given that in MotA, Hawke does not want the list of Qunari agents in Thedas, they certainly seem to act in the role as a defender of the Qunari.

Lastly, Tallis' comments that the goal Qunari aspire to is to make the world a better place, seems to harken strangely back to Hawke's comments about wanting to make Kirkwall a better place. Especially when you consider her question of whether Hawke has ever had a purpose, we get Hawke's reply; "I protect Kirkwall".

So... what do you think?

Is Hawke someone for whom the Qunari recognise has holding the same values, the same goals and motives? And were Taarbas' comments about Hawke being Ben-Hassrath be an indication that they view Hawke as a member of the Qunari, whether Hawke has yet realised it or not?

[jamesp81]

They think Hawke would make a good Qunari. They're wrong in that. I think they just recognize someone with a level of determination and skill that the Qun strives for, and they're so stagnant and rigid in their thinking that they lack the capacity to consider that someone of such skill would have entirely different motivations than the qun.

But would he make a good qunari? No, he wouldn't. Ketojan's statement that Hawke's role would change little is utter bull****, particularly my Hawke. My character spends his days figuring out ways to break the power of the templars and liberate mages, something the qun would not tolerate well. He spends the rest of his time figuring out ways to protect his sister and mother. The qunari hate magic and don't have a concept of traditional family. They could not possibly understand my Hawke's motivations, because they've been brainwashed too thoroughly.

In MotA, you can demand Tallis hand over the list, which I did on my second playthrough. She obviously doesn't hand it over, but in the entire DLC I took every opportunity to lecture her on how monstrous the qunari are and the things they'd done in Kirkwall.

As for having purpose, one hardly needs to be Qunari to have a purpose.  Hawek's purpose of protecting Kirkwall was one he chose for himself, and did not have forced on him by some ruler, as would've happened in the Qun.  As it turns out, Hawke's purpose isn't just protecting Kirkwall, it's apparently protecting Kirkwall from the qunari.

Tallis believes that the Qun wants to make the world a better place. And you'll do it their way, or they'll kill you. Now, tell me, is exchanging a set of moderately tyrannical rulers for a set of extremely tyrannical rulers improving the world? I think not. In fact, I have to seriously question if Tallis even knows, in detail, what she's supporting and what it would mean.

Modifié par jamesp81, 20 octobre 2011 - 12:11 .

[GodWood]

They only respect Hawke because (s)he's the protaganist, in reality the respect the qunari show for Hawke is completely undeserved.

jamesp81 wrote...
I think not. In fact, I have to seriously question if Tallis even knows, in detail, what she's supporting and what it would mean.

I know what the qunari do and I completely support their leadership over what the rest of Thedas has.

Don't be so arrogant.

[jamesp81]

GodWood wrote...

They only respect Hawke because (s)he's the protaganist, in reality the respect the qunari show for Hawke is completely undeserved.

jamesp81 wrote...
I think not. In fact, I have to seriously question if Tallis even knows, in detail, what she's supporting and what it would mean.

I know what the qunari do and I completely support their leadership over what the rest of Thedas has.

Don't be so arrogant.

So you think it's perfectly acceptable for all children to be taken at a young age from their families for indoctrination into the Qun?  You also think it's acceptable for the Qunari to determine who your wife will be mated to produce children for the qun which will, again, be taken not long after they are born?  You also believe that it's acceptable to kill people who refuse to sign up to your political / religious philosophy?

Tallis didn't seem the sort to go in for this level of, well, evil so I do seriously question if she knows the full extent of what she's into.  Then again, some of the worst monsters are nice people most of the time, so maybe she really does know, and really is that callous.

Modifié par jamesp81, 20 octobre 2011 - 12:23 .

[AlexXIV]

GodWood wrote...

They only respect Hawke because (s)he's the protaganist, in reality the respect the qunari show for Hawke is completely undeserved.

jamesp81 wrote...
I think not. In fact, I have to seriously question if Tallis even knows, in detail, what she's supporting and what it would mean.

I know what the qunari do and I completely support their leadership over what the rest of Thedas has.

Don't be so arrogant.

But our arrogance is all we humans have. It's what brought us where we are now. We are too arrogant to bow to anyone, even gods, nature, magic. That's why everyone fears us.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 20 octobre 2011 - 12:26 .

[GodWood]

jamesp81 wrote...
So you think it's perfectly acceptable for all children to be taken at a young age from their families for indoctrination into the Qun?

Qunari don't have families in the sense you're implying. 

You also think it's acceptable for the Qunari to determine who your wife will be mated to produce children for the qun which will, again, be taken not long after they are born?

The qunari don't have wives, nor husbands. 

You also believe that it's acceptable to kill people who refuse to sign up to your political / religious philosophy?

It's not a religious philosophy.

[GodWood]

jamesp81 wrote...
Tallis didn't seem the sort to go in for this level of, well, evil so I do seriously question if she knows the full extent of what she's into.

Did you think Sten was evil?

[Augustei]

GodWood wrote...

They only respect Hawke because (s)he's the protaganist, in reality the respect the qunari show for Hawke is completely undeserved.

jamesp81 wrote...
I think not. In fact, I have to seriously question if Tallis even knows, in detail, what she's supporting and what it would mean.

I know what the qunari do and I completely support their leadership over what the rest of Thedas has.

Don't be so arrogant.

If your character lived under the Qun, you'd have to stop seeing your love interest because the Qunari dont seem to grasp the concept of love - and only see sex as a means of reproduction. So no Morrigan / Alistair / Leliana / Anders / Isabela / Merrill or whoever for you! =P

[GodWood]

XxDeonxX wrote...
If your character lived under the Qun, you'd have to stop seeing your love interest because the Qunari dont seem to grasp the concept of love

Qunari can love. 

and only see sex as a means of reproduction. So no Morrigan / Alistair / Leliana / Anders / Isabela / Merrill or whoever for you! =P

Morrigan ran off so no loss there.
As for my Hawke, well I don't share his opinions so I couldn't really give a damn.

[jamesp81]

GodWood wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
So you think it's perfectly acceptable for all children to be taken at a young age from their families for indoctrination into the Qun?

Qunari don't have families in the sense you're implying. 

You also think it's acceptable for the Qunari to determine who your wife will be mated to produce children for the qun which will, again, be taken not long after they are born?

The qunari don't have wives, nor husbands. 

You also believe that it's acceptable to kill people who refuse to sign up to your political / religious philosophy?

It's not a religious philosophy.

No, the qunari don't have families, husbands, or wives.  AND NEITHER WOULD ANYONE ELSE AFTER THE QUN DESTROYED THEM TO SERVE ITS IDEOLOGY.

[jamesp81]

GodWood wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
Tallis didn't seem the sort to go in for this level of, well, evil so I do seriously question if she knows the full extent of what she's into.

Did you think Sten was evil?

Yes.  He was born into the qun and never knew any other way and it's not his fault he was brainwashed from a young age.  Everyone, however, ought to know some basic right from wrong whereve they're from, and he clearly doesn't.  He murdered an entire family over a sword.  So yeah, he's pretty damned evil.

Modifié par jamesp81, 20 octobre 2011 - 02:16 .

[Beerfish]

GodWood wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
Tallis didn't seem the sort to go in for this level of, well, evil so I do seriously question if she knows the full extent of what she's into.

Did you think Sten was evil?

Of course he was evil, he was rescued by a family with good intentions and he killed them all including children becasue he suspected them of ferreting away his sword or some such thing.  Sten was much like the Arishok and most other qunari my Hawke met in the game.  A being with two sets of rules, one for himself and the Qunari he liked and a totally different set for all others.

He like the Arishok also loved to talk in riddles, not committ to anything and change the context of the subject if questionde about something.  The Qunari are the epitome of 'if they talk down to me they must have higher knowledge or know more than i do.'

Modifié par Beerfish, 20 octobre 2011 - 01:55 .

[Herr Uhl]

Sifr1449 wrote...

Is Hawke someone for whom the Qunari recognise has holding the same values, the same goals and motives? And were Taarbas' comments about Hawke being Ben-Hassrath be an indication that they view Hawke as a member of the Qunari, whether Hawke has yet realised it or not?

I haven't played MotA, but Bas-Avaraad is templar. As in, templar. There is a big difference between Avaraad and Bas-Avaraad.

Otherwise, no. Not by a longshot. Since Hawke is a PC you'd probably be part of the Ben-Hassrath if you were a Qunari, as PC-powah though.

[jamesp81]

Beerfish wrote...

GodWood wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
Tallis didn't seem the sort to go in for this level of, well, evil so I do seriously question if she knows the full extent of what she's into.

Did you think Sten was evil?

Of course he was evil, he was rescued by a family with good intentions and he killed them all including children becasue he suspected them of ferreting away his sword or some such thing.  Sten was much like the Arishok and most other qunari my Hawke met in the game.  A being with two sets of rules, one for himself and the Qunari he liked and a totally different set for all others.

He like the Arishok also loved to talk in riddles, not committ to anything and change the context of the subject if questionde about something.  The Qunari are the epitome of 'if they talk down to me they must have higher knowledge or know more than i do.'

Pretty much.  I think they talk in riddles and platitudes because their philosophy sucks and they don't brook criticism.  They put on airs worse than any orlesian noble and try to pass themselves off as being so smart they can't be understood by outsiders.

The Chantry isn't even close to being as sanctimonius and closed minded as they are.  Knight Captain Cullen, for example, will at least consider the idea of reaching a compromise with mages, for example.  The Qun wouldn't even consider such a thing, much less work toward it.

Modifié par jamesp81, 20 octobre 2011 - 02:17 .

[Herr Uhl]

Beerfish wrote...

Of course he was evil, he was rescued by a family with good intentions and he killed them all including children becasue he suspected them of ferreting away his sword or some such thing.

PTSD most likely.

[jamesp81]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Of course he was evil, he was rescued by a family with good intentions and he killed them all including children becasue he suspected them of ferreting away his sword or some such thing.

PTSD most likely.

Can Qunari even suffer from that?

Maybe they can and they just hide it well.  Doesn't excuse what he did, though.

[Herr Uhl]

jamesp81 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

PTSD most likely.

Can Qunari even suffer from that?

Maybe they can and they just hide it well.  Doesn't excuse what he did, though.

He says that it was "a weak mind" that caused it. He lost everything he had (and in his head all he was) and the people he commanded, which effectively was his family. He accepts his punishment and needs to be coaxed to leave the cage. He never makes an excuse for himself.

As his writer said.

Mary Kirby wrote...
That Sten's crime is unforgivable is pretty much the entire point. It's supposed to be unforgivable.

Which is why you don't have to do it. Redemption is a long-shot at best, and certainly not the most logical outcome. Leave him to die. It's the most sensible approach. It's what he wants, and perfectly valid choice.

[jamesp81]

Herr Uhl wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

PTSD most likely.

Can Qunari even suffer from that?

Maybe they can and they just hide it well.  Doesn't excuse what he did, though.

He says that it was "a weak mind" that caused it. He lost everything he had (and in his head all he was) and the people he commanded, which effectively was his family. He accepts his punishment and needs to be coaxed to leave the cage. He never makes an excuse for himself.

As his writer said.

Mary Kirby wrote...
That Sten's crime is unforgivable is pretty much the entire point. It's supposed to be unforgivable.

Which is why you don't have to do it. Redemption is a long-shot at best, and certainly not the most logical outcome. Leave him to die. It's the most sensible approach. It's what he wants, and perfectly valid choice.

I still usually let him out.  First of all, it wastes his content to leave him in the cage.  The non-metagame reason is that it is sometimes appropriate and necessary to tolerate a lesser evil to fight against a greater one.

[Beerfish]

Herr Uhl wrote...


He says that it was "a weak mind" that caused it. He lost everything he had (and in his head all he was) and the people he commanded, which effectively was his family. He accepts his punishment and needs to be coaxed to leave the cage. He never makes an excuse for himself.

But he immediately after using the 'weak mind' defense once again acts as if the moronic humans, elves, dwarves don't know jack and blasts their way of thinking at every turn.

Mary's assertion was totally correct but in a game like this you put the player in a real bind to actually leave him in the cage on every single play through.  My big beef in that part of the game was not really Sten but my companions, some of who were talking about how cruel it was to leave himin a cage to starve or get eaten by the darkspawn.  My response in most games would have been 'You're right' and I would have promptly run him through.

[jlb524]

XxDeonxX wrote...
If your character lived under the Qun, you'd have to stop seeing your love interest because the Qunari dont seem to grasp the concept of love - and only see sex as a means of reproduction. So no Morrigan / Alistair / Leliana / Anders / Isabela / Merrill or whoever for you! =P

Do you know this for sure?

I agree that the qunari lack a concept of 'family' as the collective is greater than individuals.  I'm not sure how you can make the leap to 'sex only for reproduction' or 'no love', unless there's a Codex entry I'm missing.

[Wulfram]

jlb524 wrote...

Do you know this for sure?

I agree that the qunari lack a concept of 'family' as the collective is greater than individuals.  I'm not sure how you can make the leap to 'sex only for reproduction' or 'no love', unless there's a Codex entry I'm missing.

For sex only for reproduction, we have dev comments on the forums.

http://social.biowar...75&lf=8#3327161

Note that she says that the Qunari do love.  They just don't associate it with sex

[Joy Divison]

Beerfish wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...


He says that it was "a weak mind" that caused it. He lost everything he had (and in his head all he was) and the people he commanded, which effectively was his family. He accepts his punishment and needs to be coaxed to leave the cage. He never makes an excuse for himself.

But he immediately after using the 'weak mind' defense once again acts as if the moronic humans, elves, dwarves don't know jack and blasts their way of thinking at every turn.

Mary's assertion was totally correct but in a game like this you put the player in a real bind to actually leave him in the cage on every single play through.  My big beef in that part of the game was not really Sten but my companions, some of who were talking about how cruel it was to leave himin a cage to starve or get eaten by the darkspawn.  My response in most games would have been 'You're right' and I would have promptly run him through.

Yep.

Few things are as strong as the force of gravity.  Qunari conceit is one of them.

[Gervaise]

Just a small point, but a qunari who has been indoctrinated from birth cannot really be called evil because their actions have been programmed into them. You have to know what the alternatives are a choose a particular action for your actions to be judged as moral or not. The Arishok can be described as such because he has had plenty of time to see that not all non-Qun are the same and he does operate double standards when it comes to enforcing laws. Tallis could be described as evil if she is fully aware of the full extent of Qunari laws and prohibitions and still chooses to follow them. I rather suspect that either she doesn't or she thinks she is able to pick and choose which to follow (just as she thinks she can decided to do something which she has not been instructed to do). I think the Rivanni Qun are probably the same - they have adopted some but not all of the Qunari practices. The story in the codex about someone travelling in their lands says he was told information in a Qunari village by a Seer (the word for Rivanni wise women), who the regular Qun would not tolerate. So long as they are cut off from the main Qun they are able to maintain this stance. I think many of their "spies" have not been fully informed of what their adherance to the Qun would really mean in terms of their family life, role they choose, etc, and would probably react like many posters do - are you sure you've got that right?

[Xilizhra]

GodWood wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
Tallis didn't seem the sort to go in for this level of, well, evil so I do seriously question if she knows the full extent of what she's into.

Did you think Sten was evil?

Yes. This might have been changing by the end, though.

[Big I]

jamesp81 wrote...

So you think it's perfectly acceptable for all children to be taken at a young age from their families for indoctrination into the Qun?  You also think it's acceptable for the Qunari to determine who your wife will be mated to produce children for the qun which will, again, be taken not long after they are born?  You also believe that it's acceptable to kill people who refuse to sign up to your political / religious philosophy?

The first is no different than children being sent to the Circle, threatened with death and tranquillity, and denied a family of their own, or children being given to the Chantry. The second is no different than arranged marriages (such as Anora and Alistair, or City Elf Warden and their wife/husband), or dwarven noble hunters. The last is no different from the Exalted March on the Dales, the persecution of the Dalish or the mass killing of Qunari converts by Chantry forces.


The qunari have a lot of problems, and one of their biggest is that they're a lot closer to the rest of Thedas than they like to think.


EDIT: Re Sten, letting him out to seek redemption has to be better than leaving him to darkspawn. If you really can't get beyond what he did and are looking for a way to justify letting him out, just remember that the Wardens do whatever it takes to combat the Blight; "carta thugs, blood mages and raiders" are all accepted into the Wardens.

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 20 octobre 2011 - 06:52 .