83 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

The first is no different than children being sent to the Circle, threatened with death and tranquillity, and denied a family of their own

True. Both are evil.

or children being given to the Chantry. The second is no different than arranged marriages (such as Anora and Alistair, or City Elf Warden and their wife/husband), or dwarven noble hunters.

Those are certainly suboptimal and I wouldn't want to allow similar systems to spread.

The last is no different from the Exalted March on the Dales, the persecution of the Dalish or the mass killing of Qunari converts by Chantry forces.

Indeed. Also evil.

[ReallyRue]

I thought it was hilarious when Ketojan told my mage Hawke her role would change little if she submitted to the Qun. "Controlled by a 'handler', lips sewn shut/tongue ripped out, with no free will or respect. Where do I sign up?" Wish Hawke would have called Tallis out on that too.

[jlb524]

Wulfram wrote...

For sex only for reproduction, we have dev comments on the forums.

http://social.biowar...75&lf=8#3327161

Note that she says that the Qunari do love.  They just don't associate it with sex

Thanks!

That cleared up some questions I had.

[Xilizhra]

ReallyRue wrote...

I thought it was hilarious when Ketojan told my mage Hawke her role would change little if she submitted to the Qun. "Controlled by a 'handler', lips sewn shut/tongue ripped out, with no free will or respect. Where do I sign up?" Wish Hawke would have called Tallis out on that too.

That was pretty much my thought process too.

[Gabey5]

ReallyRue wrote...

I thought it was hilarious when Ketojan told my mage Hawke her role would change little if she submitted to the Qun. "Controlled by a 'handler', lips sewn shut/tongue ripped out, with no free will or respect. Where do I sign up?" Wish Hawke would have called Tallis out on that too.

yup. But we have to be her "friend" and can't call her out on her extreme naivety or stupidity

[King Minos]

What is the Qun exactly? A political group or a religion?

[Lazy Jer]

GodWood wrote...

They only respect Hawke because (s)he's the protaganist, in reality the respect the qunari show for Hawke is completely undeserved.

jamesp81 wrote...
I think not. In fact, I have to seriously question if Tallis even knows, in detail, what she's supporting and what it would mean.

I know what the qunari do and I completely support their leadership over what the rest of Thedas has.

Don't be so arrogant.

Read the quote above the quote that I'm quoting.  Didn't spot the arrogance, just an opinion based, presumedly, from playing the Mark of the Assassin download, a character analysis if you will.  I think it is arrogant to assume a statement that diverts from your own personal opinion is born from arrogance to be arrogant.

In short...read the last sentence in the above quote. 

[Gervaise]

Don't get started on the religion or philosophy thing - I had a thread on this and got shut down. The games says it is a religion, so we must accept it as such.

[Lazy Jer]

Would Hawke make a good Qunari...that's entirely dependant on the choices the player makes for the character.

[CrimsonZephyr]

King Minos wrote...

What is the Qun exactly? A political group or a religion?

An enemy.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

I thought it was hilarious when Ketojan told my mage Hawke her role would change little if she submitted to the Qun. "Controlled by a 'handler', lips sewn shut/tongue ripped out, with no free will or respect. Where do I sign up?" Wish Hawke would have called Tallis out on that too.

That was pretty much my thought process too.

I wonder why Hawke isn't allowed to counter Ketojan's retort (which he said to Anders when my apostate brought him along) by stating the obvious.

And why would Tallis approach an apostate Hawke if she's Qunari? I wonder why this wasn't even addressed for the Arishok, given the immediate response to Hawke revealing that he's an illegal mage by the Qunari when he is protecting Ketojan. None of the other Qunari seem to even care about Hawke's apostate status even when he's a public apostate in Kirkwall without a handler.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

I thought it was hilarious when Ketojan told my mage Hawke her role would change little if she submitted to the Qun. "Controlled by a 'handler', lips sewn shut/tongue ripped out, with no free will or respect. Where do I sign up?" Wish Hawke would have called Tallis out on that too.

That was pretty much my thought process too.

I wonder why Hawke isn't allowed to counter Ketojan's retort (which he said to Anders when my apostate brought him along) by stating the obvious.

And why would Tallis approach an apostate Hawke if she's Qunari? I wonder why this wasn't even addressed for the Arishok, given the immediate response to Hawke revealing that he's an illegal mage by the Qunari when he is protecting Ketojan. None of the other Qunari seem to even care about Hawke's apostate status even when he's a public apostate in Kirkwall without a handler.

Ketojan, Tallis, the Arishok, and Taarbas have no qualms with Hawke being a mage for this reason: Mages can be parts of the Ben-Hassrath.

Mary Kirby said they can anyway and they are watched carefully still, so I guess that's why Ketojan says "Your role would change little". My guess is that to all those Qunari, Hawke is someone who would be Ben-Hassrath but had the misfortune of being born outside the Qun (in their eyes, not mine).

[Xilizhra]

Ketojan, Tallis, the Arishok, and Taarbas have no qualms with Hawke being a mage for this reason: Mages can be parts of the Ben-Hassrath.

What? Well, is that one Arvaraad just a ******, then?
Actually, that's totally plausible. So yay, something new makes sense. And yes, Hawke does seem rather Ben-Hassrath-y.

[Heimdall]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

The first is no different than children being sent to the Circle, threatened with death and tranquillity, and denied a family of their own,

  Well, let's compare like with like.  A mage's situation under the Qun seem more dire than under the Circle system (Which is certainl bad enough).  At least a mage under the Circle system can live a comfortable life amongst their own kind, rather than being chained up and having their mouths sewn shut (or are their tongues cut out? That seem to be what I read in Origins but Ketojan had his mouth partially sewn shut and could speak). 

or children being given to the Chantry.

Hold on there, A child given to the chantry can choose to leave, even if they've taken vows (Sebastian), without being hunted down like animals like Tal-Vashoth.

The second is no different than arranged marriages (such as Anora and Alistair, or City Elf Warden and their wife/husband), or dwarven noble hunters.

  Well, not much dissent here on the first thing you mentioned, but noble hunters are forced into their trade by gangsters or by choice in the hopes of worming their way into a noble house, I don't think comparison with the Qunari arranged copulations works very well.

To me, I'd say the Qunari bare a more extreme version of many of Theds' shortcomings.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 20 octobre 2011 - 09:42 .

[Gervaise]

Hold on, are you saying that an unleashed, uncollared mage can be part of the Ben Hassrath? May be they don't get their mouths sewn shut because they wouldn't be able to spread the word and I dare say a bit of sorcerery always comes in handy for bringing the rebellious under control but the codexes make it quite clear that mages are not simply allowed to walk around unsupervised and someone holding an electrified stick as a threat over me is slavery in my books.

Now so far as the Arishok is concerned, I was never quite clear about what Fenris said to him. May be he pretended to be my leashholder or maybe he suffered from the same blind spot that Elthina, the Templars and most others did during Acts 1 and 2. By Act 3 Meredith does know I am a mage and makes it clear I am only free on sufferance from her, so toe the line or else.

Sten was one lone Qunari, who apparently got re-educated on his return home, so no real change needed to be made to the lore to accommodate his popularity with some players. I do hope we're not to suddenly find out that all the lore we've previously been given is wrong simply because Tallis is popular with some players and they are going to make her a companion in future games.

She works with Hawke because it suits her to do so - the end justifies the means - and in any case she seems to play fast and loose with how she follows the Qun, so my guess is she'll end up a Tal'Vashoth. Also I feel the reason we're not allowed to challenge her over the mage thing is because it would be a rather large problem between a mage Hawke and Tallis, so it is conveniently not mentioned. However, doesn't Anders say something to her about this? I didn't get it on my run through with him. How does she respond?

[KJandrew]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ketojan, Tallis, the Arishok, and Taarbas have no qualms with Hawke being a mage for this reason: Mages can be parts of the Ben-Hassrath.

What? Well, is that one Arvaraad just a ******, then?

Could just be the fact that he's the Qunari version of a templar and so maybe a bit more zealous against mages

[naledgeborn]

I don't understand how people can point and say "the Qun is evil". Lol. It's a school of thought. Just like ours or Thedas' view of them is clouded and misconstrued so would ours be to them (if they weren't a fictional race that is).

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ketojan, Tallis, the Arishok, and Taarbas have no qualms with Hawke being a mage for this reason: Mages can be parts of the Ben-Hassrath.

What? Well, is that one Arvaraad just a ******, then?
Actually, that's totally plausible. So yay, something new makes sense. And yes, Hawke does seem rather Ben-Hassrath-y.

Or, you know, he didn't actually get to know Hawke. Ketojan, Tallis, the Arishok all got to know Hawke and Taarbas knew about Hawke's achievements.

I mean, I wouldn't expect every Qunari to think that every mage is worthy of being Ben-Hassrath.

[TEWR]

SilverMoonDragon wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

Would Hawke make a good Qunari...that's entirely dependant on the choices the player makes for the character.

Although you are right, depending on the type of character and your own view of the Qun. I just don't think my Hawkes would, I respect the Qunari and their honour in their beliefs, but none of my Hawkes would be good Qunari.

My Hawkes disagree with 3 major things about the Qunari:

1) The invasions for "enlightenment"
2) How they treat their mages.
3) Hunting down all Tal-Vashoth simply for being Tal-Vashoth.

If they didn't invade a country for enlightenment and instead only invaded if someone went to war with them (say like Orlais declared war), my Hawkes would be fine with that.

If they treated their mages better (no collaring, no chaining, a better understanding of magic and by extension nature itself so they don't say it draws its power from chaos and demons, etc), my Hawkes would be fine with that.
If they only hunted Tal-Vashoth like Salit who were actual traitors and not simply people who changed their beliefs, my Hawkes would be fine with that.

Those are the 3 main things that keep my Hawkes from joining the Qunari.

[AlexXIV]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Ketojan, Tallis, the Arishok, and Taarbas have no qualms with Hawke being a mage for this reason: Mages can be parts of the Ben-Hassrath.

What? Well, is that one Arvaraad just a ******, then?
Actually, that's totally plausible. So yay, something new makes sense. And yes, Hawke does seem rather Ben-Hassrath-y.

Or, you know, he didn't actually get to know Hawke. Ketojan, Tallis, the Arishok all got to know Hawke and Taarbas knew about Hawke's achievements.

I mean, I wouldn't expect every Qunari to think that every mage is worthy of being Ben-Hassrath.

Well DG once mentioned Sten regards the Warden like we would regard a unicorn. I mean it's like a legend come to life. So that would be an exception, even if he/she is a mage. Obviously such cases are possible in the Qun even though it is probably not something that happens regularly.

[Herr Uhl]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well DG once mentioned Sten regards the Warden like we would regard a unicorn. I mean it's like a legend come to life. So that would be an exception, even if he/she is a mage. Obviously such cases are possible in the Qun even though it is probably not something that happens regularly.

You mean this? We know little of the Ben Hassrath, so we'll see in the future.

[AlexXIV]

Herr Uhl wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well DG once mentioned Sten regards the Warden like we would regard a unicorn. I mean it's like a legend come to life. So that would be an exception, even if he/she is a mage. Obviously such cases are possible in the Qun even though it is probably not something that happens regularly.

You mean this? We know little of the Ben Hassrath, so we'll see in the future.

Lol, almost forgot the picture.

[Urzon]

jamesp81 wrote...

Yes.  He was born into the qun and never knew any other way and it's not his fault he was brainwashed from a young age.  Everyone, however, ought to know some basic right from wrong whereve they're from, and he clearly doesn't.  He murdered an entire family over a sword.  So yeah, he's pretty damned evil.

So you think he is evil, but you also so it isn't his fault because he was brainwashed? Ok......

Sten isn't an evil person. Did he do a bad thing by killing that family? Yes, he even admits he shouldn't have killed them, but afterwords; he lets himself get captured so he can be put to death.

Is that an act an evil man, who doesn't know right from wrong? No. If anything, that was the best possibly thing from Sten to do. Did he feel remorse for the crimes? No he didn't. In the Qun they are taught what is past is past, and there is no changing it.

While he didn't feel remorse for killing them, Sten still excepted punishment for his deeds, and he was sentenced to death.

He was prepared to die in that cage. Evil people would never do that.

[TEWR]

Urzon wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Yes.  He was born into the qun and never knew any other way and it's not his fault he was brainwashed from a young age.  Everyone, however, ought to know some basic right from wrong whereve they're from, and he clearly doesn't.  He murdered an entire family over a sword.  So yeah, he's pretty damned evil.

So you think he is evil, but you also so it isn't his fault because he was brainwashed? Ok......

Sten isn't an evil person. Did he do a bad thing by killing that family? Yes, he even admits he shouldn't have killed them, but afterwords; he lets himself get captured so he can be put to death.

Is that an act an evil man, who doesn't know right from wrong? No. If anything, that was the best possibly thing from Sten to do. Did he feel remorse for the crimes? No he didn't. In the Qun they are taught what is past is past, and there is no changing it.

While he didn't feel remorse for killing them, Sten still excepted punishment for his deeds, and he was sentenced to death.

He was prepared to die in that cage. Evil people would never do that.

Sten does feel regret actually, and thinks that he failed his people by allowing them to be seen in that light (cold-hearted murderous zealots).

He knows he can't change it, but that doesn't mean he won't feel bad about it. Mary Kirby IIRC said he'll never forgive himself for that incident.

But you're right in that he isn't evil. If Sten's evil for murdering the family and feeling bad about it, then the Warden, Hawke, Anders, Velanna, Loghain, Leliana, Oghren, and other people must be evil for killing people (and some of them didn't even feel bad about it!). The act of killing people may be evil, but the person behind it isn't automatically evil.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 octobre 2011 - 12:53 .