83 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

But you're right in that he isn't evil. If Sten's evil for murdering the family and feeling bad about it, then the Warden, Hawke, Anders, Velanna, Loghain, Leliana, Oghren, and other people must be evil for killing people. The act of killing people may be evil, but the person behind it isn't automatically evil.

Sten is evil for other reasons.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

But you're right in that he isn't evil. If Sten's evil for murdering the family and feeling bad about it, then the Warden, Hawke, Anders, Velanna, Loghain, Leliana, Oghren, and other people must be evil for killing people. The act of killing people may be evil, but the person behind it isn't automatically evil.

Sten is evil for other reasons.

For what? Being born into the Qun? How's that any different from being born into the Chantry societies? How's that any different from being born into Catholicism (possibly a bad example, but I'm trying to make a point)?

What you're born into doesn't make a person evil, and however rigid a philosophy or religion may be you can have doubts and think some of it is wrong, especially if you see firsthand how cultures outside of yours live.

Facts about Sten:

1) He feels regret about killing the family.
2) He says he doesn't want to be alive when the Qunari invade (give him his sword and have one of the discussions with him. I forget which one)
3) He says he won't look for the Warden on the battlefield should the Qunari invade during his lifetime.
4) He doesn't understand why the Tal-Vashoth do what they do, but he wants to. And for that matter neither do I since some still cling to the honor they held under the Qun. Most just seem like they would rather be violent bandits who don't give a damn about who they harm than actually be people.
5) He says his views have changed a little.
6) His discussions with the Warden have the Warden trying to teach him how the current Qunari way of life is wrong in certain areas.

How easily should a person be able to toss aside what they've been born and bred with and taught is right? Should he just toss all of what he holds dear to the wayside because you deem it ethically wrong (which it is in certain regards, but that's not my point).

He has doubts about things now and I see him rising to the position of Arishok and doing something to the Qun (reforming it or leading a bunch of Qunari to live a different version of the Qun lifestyle), and that's more than I could say when he first came to Ferelden.

He was once fervently Qunari and now he's just one Qunari among many whose views have changed.

I see him as the Hugh of the Qunari.

For those of you who don't know who I'm talking about, Hugh was a Star Trek: The Next Generation character. He was one of the Borg who was healed by the crew of the Enterprise and through his experiences with them began to have independent thought and didn't want the Borg to assimilate the crew of the Enterprise into the Borg way.

And IIRC, when he was brought back to the Borg (as he inevitably had to be), his views began a rapid spiral within the Borg "society" that caused it to almost destroy itself and eventually led to the Borg banishing those who were experiencing individuality.

I forget what happened afterwards.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 octobre 2011 - 01:11 .

[Quething]

KJandrew wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Ketojan, Tallis, the Arishok, and Taarbas have no qualms with Hawke being a mage for this reason: Mages can be parts of the Ben-Hassrath.

What? Well, is that one Arvaraad just a ******, then?

Could just be the fact that he's the Qunari version of a templar and so maybe a bit more zealous against mages

I think that's basically it, yeah. Remember what Arvaraad says when you ask him his role: "it is the role of another to purge the perversions of your kind" etc etc. And Sten's utter inability to comprehend a female Warden or Leliana. And the Arishok's claim that he's not equipped to convert and his refusal to even attempt to explain the Qun to Hawke, even though he thinks Hawke might be capable of conversion.

Basically Qunari don't act outside their role. So I guess the Arishok is looking at mage!Hawke and going, "fine, Sareebas, whatever, not my job to worry about it. If she goes nuts or is poisoning me with her words, an Arvaraad will handle it."

Not the best justification, but it certainly works for Sten (who unlike the Arishok, never seeks to act outside his role or the demand of the Qun), and it works about as well as anything else related to mage!Hawke's carefree mageliness.

[Xilizhra]

What you're born into doesn't make a person evil, and however rigid a philosophy or religion may be you can have doubts and think some of it is wrong, especially if you see firsthand how cultures outside of yours live.

I didn't say Sten was irredeemable. He's one of the least evil qunari I know.

How easily should a person be able to toss aside what they've been born and bred with and taught is right? Should he just toss all of what he holds dear to the wayside because you deem it ethically wrong (which it is in certain regards, but that's not my point).

Redemption is a slow process, true enough.

He has doubts about things now and I see him rising to the position of Arishok and doing something to the Qun (reforming it or leading a bunch of Qunari to live a different version of the Qun lifestyle), and that's more than I could say when he first came to Ferelden.

Unlikely. That would be the Ariqun's job, and Sten is no priestess. For that matter, I don't know if even the Ariqun can really change anything.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

I didn't say Sten was irredeemable. He's one of the least evil qunari I know.

I'm curious as to your opinion on Maraas the Tal-Vashoth.

Unlikely. That would be the Ariqun's job, and Sten is no priestess. For that matter, I don't know if even the Ariqun can really change anything.

Well I also see Tallis rising to the position of Ariqun for her accomplishments (even if it was on an unsanctioned Qunari mission in MotA).

Two Qunari in positions of power within the Triumvirate that have doubts about the culture and different views from what they've been taught would bring about a civil war imo.

But that's just how I'd handle it. I'm sure Bioware has another plan for the Qunari (one that deals with invasions). Though perhaps they'll do both. A civil war that leads to many Qunari leaving the Qun during a time when the Qunari invade, thus weakening the fervently Qunari's chances at conquering Thedas?

Optimism surely, but why not.

[Xilizhra]

I'm curious as to your opinion on Maraas the Tal-Vashoth.

He's about the same as any other mercenary, although his aversion to murdering and stealing makes me think he's somewhat better than many.

Well I also see Tallis rising to the position of Ariqun for her accomplishments (even if it was on an unsanctioned Qunari mission in MotA).

That seems like it's really pushing it. Tallis explicitly says that she can't really capture the true bliss of the Qun, though she says she thinks it does exist. She's a good spy and assassin, but really doesn't seem like priestess material. And quite frankly, I think there's a certain amount of unofficial racism that'd damage a non-kossith's chances to make it into the triumvirate.

[Huntress]

jlb524 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...
If your character lived under the Qun, you'd have to stop seeing your love interest because the Qunari dont seem to grasp the concept of love - and only see sex as a means of reproduction. So no Morrigan / Alistair / Leliana / Anders / Isabela / Merrill or whoever for you! =P

Do you know this for sure?

I agree that the qunari lack a concept of 'family' as the collective is greater than individuals.  I'm not sure how you can make the leap to 'sex only for reproduction' or 'no love', unless there's a Codex entry I'm missing.

Do search:

Qunari have no "family units": they do not marry, choose partners, or
even know to whom they are related. A Qunari's "family" consists of his
or her coworkers.
A Qunari's personal name is not what we think of as a name. It is
more like a social security number, information which the Tamassrans
use to keep track of breeding, and is thus not something a Qunari uses
to refer to one another. What a Qunari instead thinks of as their name
is, in fact, their job title, which is differentiated by rank and task.


The Tamassrans raise all the children, give them their general
education, and evaluate them. Qunari are officially assigned their roles
at twelve years of age. The Tamassrans do conduct some tests, however
nothing requiring a pencil. They also have something of a head start on
the process, as they are the ones who control the Qunari selective
breeding program.

The Tamassrans wield a great deal of influence in Qunari society. As it
is primarily a female gender role (as all administrative tasks are),
this might lead an outsider to believe that their society is
female-dominated. Qunari do not, however, look upon government in quite
the same way. The brain could be said to rule the body, but so too does
the heart, the lungs, the stomach. All are part of the greater whole.

Qunari have been bred for specific roles for a very long time. Parentage is no longer the issue, more like pedigree.

More here: http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari

If thats not enough talk to sten he will tell you the samehing lol.

Modifié par Huntress, 21 octobre 2011 - 03:03 .

[GodWood]

jamesp81 wrote...
Pretty much.  I think they talk in riddles and platitudes because their philosophy sucks and they don't brook criticism.  They put on airs worse than any orlesian noble and try to pass themselves off as being so smart they can't be understood by outsiders.

Sten speaks in riddles and deflects things he doesn't understand because english (or whatever it is everyone speaks) is not his first language.

Or at least that's what it says in the toolset.

Xilizhra wrote...
Sten is evil for other reasons.

You're evil.

I think there's a certain amount of unofficial racism that'd damage a non-kossith's chances to make it into the triumvirate.

What makes you think this?
Sten's banter seems to imply otherwise.

Modifié par GodWood, 21 octobre 2011 - 04:11 .

[Quething]

Xilizhra wrote...

That seems like it's really pushing it. Tallis explicitly says that she can't really capture the true bliss of the Qun, though she says she thinks it does exist. She's a good spy and assassin, but really doesn't seem like priestess material. And quite frankly, I think there's a certain amount of unofficial racism that'd damage a non-kossith's chances to make it into the triumvirate.

"The Qun from an elf? The madness of this place."

[Xilizhra]

You're evil.

A compliment from you.

[GodWood]

I have my moments.

[Sifr]

Some great responses, didn't expect so many...

My interpretation of Sten is that he had a temporary psychotic break upon realising he'd lost Asala, his mind unable to comprehend or deal with sheer ramifications over what the loss of his soul truly meant. I'd argue that while that does not make his crime inexcusable, it explains why he is willing to stay in that cage until his death, as well as join the Warden, simply because he believed it to be a suicide mission. He even downright says something to that effect when the Warden opens his cage. Sten shows that he is guilt-ridden over the events in his response to the Guardian of Andraste's Ashes, when he questions whether Sten believes his actions failed the Qunari.

"I have never denied that I failed."

Modifié par Sifr1449, 21 octobre 2011 - 05:49 .

[Beerfish]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

you see firsthand how cultures outside of yours live.

Facts about Sten:

1) He feels regret about killing the family.

Oh laddie da!  Someone saves your life, takes you in and cares for you so you slaughter the whole family.  Feeling bad after the fact means very litte.  If he wasn't in a cage being questioned would he have gone back to his Arishok and said.  Gee I feel bad for killing a family, would it have meant anything?

2) He says he doesn't want to be alive when the Qunari invade (give him his sword and have one of the discussions with him. I forget which one)

Then he should do something about it like jumping off the nearest cliff.  Sten it seems was a chicken who had 1/100th of the guts of a lowly mage like Ketojan.

3) He says he won't look for the Warden on the battlefield should the Qunari invade during his lifetime.

Good move on his part since he knows the warden can kick his ass with one hand tied behind his or her back.

4) He doesn't understand why the Tal-Vashoth do what they do, but he wants to. And for that matter neither do I since some still cling to the honor they held under the Qun. Most just seem like they would rather be violent bandits who don't give a damn about who they harm than actually be people.

And yet the Qunari make no attempt at all it seems to want to understand why humans do waht they do, especially in kirkwall.  The Arishok makes pretty well sero attempt to actually find out why Kirkwall is a nasty place, instead he preaches, gets frustrated and tries to take over the city.

5) He says his views have changed a little.

The he is one step away from being a Tal Vasoth that should be shunned if not killed.

6) His discussions with the Warden have the Warden trying to teach him how the current Qunari way of life is wrong in certain areas.

And in most cases the Warden is met with a 'No' or ****** humans do not understand.

How easily should a person be able to toss aside what they've been born and bred with and taught is right? Should he just toss all of what he holds dear to the wayside because you deem it ethically wrong (which it is in certain regards, but that's not my point).

When in rome do what the romans do.  There is nothing wrong with the qunari holding on to their beleifs, nor is it wrong for them to try to convert others to their way of thinking such as the one that talked to the viscounts son.  In most cases however they totally reject anything other than their way of thinking as being purely stupid and are totally unwilling to ever admit they are wrong on a point.

He has doubts about things now and I see him rising to the position of Arishok and doing something to the Qun (reforming it or leading a bunch of Qunari to live a different version of the Qun lifestyle), and that's more than I could say when he first came to Ferelden.

I'd say he is more likely to be run thorugh with a few qunari blades if he rose to be Arishok and tried to reform the Qun.

I got the impression that Sten respected the Warden by the end of the game but that is about the only human he did respect and he didn't show much in the way of respecting non Qun society.

[TEWR]

Oh laddie da! Someone saves your life, takes you in and cares for you so you slaughter the whole family. Feeling bad after the fact means very litte. If he wasn't in a cage being questioned would he have gone back to his Arishok and said. Gee I feel bad for killing a family, would it have meant anything?

He's the one who put himself in the cage. Immediately after he killed them he was distraught by it and thought that he had forfeited all honor.

Back in Par Vollen, it was his duty to protect the farmers of the Qunari from the monsters in the Tal-Vashoth (something I recall Mary Kirby saying). Becoming the very monster he had fought for so long had to have traumatized him, so he waited until the Templars came and willingly went with them.

That speaks volumes about his true character. The act was evil. The man behind it wasn't because of what his heart was telling him.

Then he should do something about it like jumping off the nearest cliff. Sten it seems was a chicken who had 1/100th of the guts of a lowly mage like Ketojan.

The Qunari don't just commit suicide because they want to. They do it when either the Qun demands a death (Ketojan) or when they are no longer able to perform a task (when they go to a Qunari old folks' home).

Remember, they don't waste resources.

Good move on his part since he knows the warden can kick his ass with one hand tied behind his or her back.

Well the Warden's either dead or missing, so Sten wouldn't be able to find him if he wanted to.

And yet the Qunari make no attempt at all it seems to want to understand why humans do waht they do, especially in kirkwall. The Arishok makes pretty well sero attempt to actually find out why Kirkwall is a nasty place, instead he preaches, gets frustrated and tries to take over the city.

They wouldn't be Qunari otherwise

The he is one step away from being a Tal Vasoth that should be shunned if not killed.

shunned by whom? The Qunari or us? If he became "Tal-Vashoth" in the eyes of the Qunari but actually led an offshoot Qunari belief with changed views on mages, Tal-Vashoth that just leave the Qun, and invasions for enlightenment; I'd say he's worthy of some attention by us.

And in most cases the Warden is met with a 'No' or ****** humans do not understand.

Not really. many of his discussions with the Warden have them talking about philosophy and trying to understand one another, and he approves of these types of things.

When in rome do what the romans do. There is nothing wrong with the qunari holding on to their beleifs, nor is it wrong for them to try to convert others to their way of thinking such as the one that talked to the viscounts son. In most cases however they totally reject anything other than their way of thinking as being purely stupid and are totally unwilling to ever admit they are wrong on a point.

I don't like the invasions for enlightenment or how they view societies outside of theirs myself. It's my belief that Sten will be Arishok and Tallis will be Ariqun and they'll reform the Qun to be better, either at home or by leading a mass exodus of Qunari who agree things need to change.

I'd say he is more likely to be run thorugh with a few qunari blades if he rose to be Arishok and tried to reform the Qun.

I got the impression that Sten respected the Warden by the end of the game but that is about the only human he did respect and he didn't show much in the way of respecting non Qun society.

An Arishok is the most powerful commander of the Qunari forces, and Sten has proven himself to be a capable fighter.

I'm sure that there would be no way in hell he'd be killed. Not when the developers have given very clear hints that Sten will be important in the future.

Yay for plot armor!

[Carmen_Willow]

What gives me hope for the Qunari is the fact that so many run away to become Tal-Vashoth even after all the generations of selective breeding. It seems that you can't quite breed individuality out of everyone, even with a healthy dose of indoctrination from the moment of birth.

The peoples of Thedas are not insects; they do not deserve to be shoved into a hive their entire lives.

[Joy Divison]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't like the invasions for enlightenment or how they view societies outside of theirs myself. It's my belief that Sten will be Arishok and Tallis will be Ariqun and they'll reform the Qun to be better, either at home or by leading a mass exodus of Qunari who agree things need to change.

"The Qun from an elf?  The madness..."

[TEWR]

Joy Divison wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't like the invasions for enlightenment or how they view societies outside of theirs myself. It's my belief that Sten will be Arishok and Tallis will be Ariqun and they'll reform the Qun to be better, either at home or by leading a mass exodus of Qunari who agree things need to change.

"The Qun from an elf?  The madness..."

"Madness?"

*looks back at Merrill*

"THIS! IS! KIRKWALL!"

[Xilizhra]

So, what happens if Sten is left in his cage and gets killed by darkspawn?

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

So, what happens if Sten is left in his cage and gets killed by darkspawn?

considering the player can never actually confirm he was killed by the Darkspawn, he can still be made Arishok.

[Xilizhra]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So, what happens if Sten is left in his cage and gets killed by darkspawn?

considering the player can never actually confirm he was killed by the Darkspawn, he can still be made Arishok.

I still find this scenario highly unlikely, especially since the Arishok has no say whatsoever in Qun policy, and Tallis has been more or less thrown out of the Ben-Hassrath.

[Gervaise]

Sten could be made Arishok on the basis that apparently the Devs said he was re-educated on his return to Par Vollen. If this is the case, then it is perfectly possible that the re-educated Sten would demonstrate sufficient battle prowess and tactical nohow that eventually he might be made Arishok.

As for Tallis, there is no way that the elf we met in MoA could be made Ariqun. The only way this could happen is for her either to be successfully "re-educated" or simply willingly accept those aspects of the Qun that she currently finds difficult. The Ariqun is responsible for the spiritual wellbeing of the Qun and therefore "success" in such an area would be measured in terms of the strength of their faith, ability to convert/maintain that faith in others and obedience to the demands of the Qun. Against this measure Tallis would be a failure - regardless of her recovery of the scroll - since she did this on her own initiative, not at the request of her superiors.

There may have been reasons why they took no action against Salit, not the least of which is that any enemy had only Salit's word for the fact that the names were genuine - unless the Qun chose to interfere which would then confirm its value. Spies can always be replaced if the allies chose to act on the information but they would not know for certain that they had not simply killed a bunch of innocent people - thus making their reputation even worse with the survivors and thus even easier to recruit converts in the future. It may sound callous but perhaps that is regarded as part of the "role" of a sleeper - to be willing to be sacrificed for the greater good of the people.

Tallis does not feel like that but if that was the view of her leadership then she would be in even bigger trouble on her return. Her actions confirmed the value of the scroll and even without the scroll a wise person would take action to counter the effects the Qun had had in the alienages, etc. This does not have to mean senseless slaughter, which would be counterproductive, but giving people a good positive reason why they should remain faithful to their current leaders.

The journal at the end confirms that Hawke did seek to do so and it is not Hawke's fault that apparently people in a position to do anything are too stupid to do so and prefer to "stick their heads in the sand" rather than admit the Qun could have anything as sophisticated as a system of sleeper cells/spies in place.

[ydaraishy]

Sifr1449 wrote...

While playing MotA for the second time, it got me thinking about all the times in the game that seem to hint that Hawke actually acts in a similar role to members of the Qunari.

The way that Hawke is said to seem to be following multiple qunari roles serves to demonstrate the fallibility of the Qun, not reinforce it, as there seems to be a strong indication that only one person may have only one role in the course of that person's lifetime.
 
The qunari and everyone else certainly have the same goals: to worship, to defend, to inquire, etc. What make the qunari different is how they go about this -- Hawke and others have a choice as to what roles to enact, the qunari do not. Moreover the qunari view their role synoymously with their identity; this is all Qunari 101 stuff expounded from DA:O.

[Herr Uhl]

ydaraishy wrote...

Sifr1449 wrote...

While playing MotA for the second time, it got me thinking about all the times in the game that seem to hint that Hawke actually acts in a similar role to members of the Qunari.

The way that Hawke is said to seem to be following multiple qunari roles serves to demonstrate the fallibility of the Qun, not reinforce it, as there seems to be a strong indication that only one person may have only one role in the course of that person's lifetime.

The lesson that the Qunari might have about that is that Hawke ultimately fails with most of the roles s/he has.

[ydaraishy]

Herr Uhl wrote...

ydaraishy wrote...

Sifr1449 wrote...

While playing MotA for the second time, it got me thinking about all the times in the game that seem to hint that Hawke actually acts in a similar role to members of the Qunari.

The way that Hawke is said to seem to be following multiple qunari roles serves to demonstrate the fallibility of the Qun, not reinforce it, as there seems to be a strong indication that only one person may have only one role in the course of that person's lifetime.

The lesson that the Qunari might have about that is that Hawke ultimately fails with most of the roles s/he has.

This meme that Hawke's a "failure" of some kind is a bit incomprehensible in some respects. A Ferelden refugee toils for so long to reclaim her birthright and become a Hightown noble, bests the _Arishok_ -- one of the qunari _triumvirate_ of all people -- in combat and repels a potential qunari forced conversion, accomplishes something out of the mess that Anders leaves behind, and somehow this makes her a failure?

The qunari philosophy is to enshrine order over all in its followers: arguably, the events of DA2 need not have happened if everyone had just stuck to their assigned roles and obeyed the Qun. One could argue under the Qun Hawke would never have gotten enmeshed in Kirkwall's affairs or even needed to have "succeeded" in them if she was: had Anders been "caged" like other saarebas, the ending of DA2 need not have happened, the mage/templar conflict would be redundant -- but obviously with the drawback of a great lot of personal freedoms. Fundamentally this is the tension that's being contrasted with the qunari: what is the price of an ordered society under the Qun? what is the cost of a "disordered" society?

Modifié par ydaraishy, 22 octobre 2011 - 12:27 .

[Joy Divison]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't like the invasions for enlightenment or how they view societies outside of theirs myself. It's my belief that Sten will be Arishok and Tallis will be Ariqun and they'll reform the Qun to be better, either at home or by leading a mass exodus of Qunari who agree things need to change.

"The Qun from an elf?  The madness..."

"Madness?"

*looks back at Merrill*

"THIS! IS! KIRKWALL!"

Look up how many non-Italian popes there were.  Just sayin'...

Renegade priest-spies from foreign lands tend not to rise very far in conservative hierarchies.