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[jamesp81]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

So you think it's perfectly acceptable for all children to be taken at a young age from their families for indoctrination into the Qun?  You also think it's acceptable for the Qunari to determine who your wife will be mated to produce children for the qun which will, again, be taken not long after they are born?  You also believe that it's acceptable to kill people who refuse to sign up to your political / religious philosophy?

The first is no different than children being sent to the Circle, threatened with death and tranquillity, and denied a family of their own, or children being given to the Chantry. The second is no different than arranged marriages (such as Anora and Alistair, or City Elf Warden and their wife/husband), or dwarven noble hunters. The last is no different from the Exalted March on the Dales, the persecution of the Dalish or the mass killing of Qunari converts by Chantry forces.


The qunari have a lot of problems, and one of their biggest is that they're a lot closer to the rest of Thedas than they like to think.


EDIT: Re Sten, letting him out to seek redemption has to be better than leaving him to darkspawn. If you really can't get beyond what he did and are looking for a way to justify letting him out, just remember that the Wardens do whatever it takes to combat the Blight; "carta thugs, blood mages and raiders" are all accepted into the Wardens.

You're not entirely wrong.  Thedas has problems.  Where the rest of Thedas and the Qunari differ is in thinking.  Not everyone in Thedas supports the tyranny of the circle.  Some people speak against it and resist it, violently at times.  Same for the rest of it.   These insitutions do not operate unopposed, and there are significant forces standing against their practices even now.

Not so with the qunari.  They go in for a level of brainwashing and indoctrination unprecedented in Thedas.  The Chantry isn't even close to their level of authoritarianism and indoctrination.  There is NO  ONE among the qunari trying to reform them.

I will throw my lot in with the people who are trying to change things in a land where things might conceivably be changed.   The qunari are rabid, dangerous animals with a  lot of intelligence and determination and no possibility of being reasoned with. Only one thing to do with that.

[jamesp81]

King Minos wrote...

What is the Qun exactly? A political group or a religion?

They will tell you it's merely a philosophy or a way of life.

In truth, it's a bit of all three: philosophy, religion, and political ideology.  The three are thoroughly intertwined to the point that one element can't be separated from the others.

[jamesp81]

Lord Aesir wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

The first is no different than children being sent to the Circle, threatened with death and tranquillity, and denied a family of their own,

  Well, let's compare like with like.  A mage's situation under the Qun seem more dire than under the Circle system (Which is certainl bad enough).  At least a mage under the Circle system can live a comfortable life amongst their own kind, rather than being chained up and having their mouths sewn shut (or are their tongues cut out? That seem to be what I read in Origins but Ketojan had his mouth partially sewn shut and could speak). 

or children being given to the Chantry.

Hold on there, A child given to the chantry can choose to leave, even if they've taken vows (Sebastian), without being hunted down like animals like Tal-Vashoth.

The second is no different than arranged marriages (such as Anora and Alistair, or City Elf Warden and their wife/husband), or dwarven noble hunters.

  Well, not much dissent here on the first thing you mentioned, but noble hunters are forced into their trade by gangsters or by choice in the hopes of worming their way into a noble house, I don't think comparison with the Qunari arranged copulations works very well.

To me, I'd say the Qunari bare a more extreme version of many of Theds' shortcomings.

I think that's a pretty astute observation. The Qunari embody everything about Thedas that is bad, and amplify it a hundred fold.

[jamesp81]

Urzon wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Yes.  He was born into the qun and never knew any other way and it's not his fault he was brainwashed from a young age.  Everyone, however, ought to know some basic right from wrong whereve they're from, and he clearly doesn't.  He murdered an entire family over a sword.  So yeah, he's pretty damned evil.

So you think he is evil, but you also so it isn't his fault because he was brainwashed? Ok......

Sten isn't an evil person. Did he do a bad thing by killing that family? Yes, he even admits he shouldn't have killed them, but afterwords; he lets himself get captured so he can be put to death.

Is that an act an evil man, who doesn't know right from wrong? No. If anything, that was the best possibly thing from Sten to do. Did he feel remorse for the crimes? No he didn't. In the Qun they are taught what is past is past, and there is no changing it.

While he didn't feel remorse for killing them, Sten still excepted punishment for his deeds, and he was sentenced to death.

He was prepared to die in that cage. Evil people would never do that.

It's NOT his fault he was brainwashed.  He does, however, believe in and support a system of belief that promotes and tolerates evil.  That's why he's got at least some evil in him.

Modifié par jamesp81, 22 octobre 2011 - 02:54 .

[jamesp81]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I didn't say Sten was irredeemable. He's one of the least evil qunari I know.

I'm curious as to your opinion on Maraas the Tal-Vashoth.

Unlikely. That would be the Ariqun's job, and Sten is no priestess. For that matter, I don't know if even the Ariqun can really change anything.

Well I also see Tallis rising to the position of Ariqun for her accomplishments (even if it was on an unsanctioned Qunari mission in MotA).

Two Qunari in positions of power within the Triumvirate that have doubts about the culture and different views from what they've been taught would bring about a civil war imo.

But that's just how I'd handle it. I'm sure Bioware has another plan for the Qunari (one that deals with invasions). Though perhaps they'll do both. A civil war that leads to many Qunari leaving the Qun during a time when the Qunari invade, thus weakening the fervently Qunari's chances at conquering Thedas?

Optimism surely, but why not.

Actually, that wouldn't surprise me.  There's plenty of historical precedent for it, too.  WW1 comes to mind.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Even if Sten and Tallis were somehow important enough to be made Arishok and Ariqun respectively, I would think the very fact that they may have unorthodox beliefs about the Qun would prevent them from ever being leaders of the qunari, especially when your job is to protect the soul and integrity of the Qun.

Besides, I would prefer they leave Sten dead if you killed him. I don't make a habit of letting mass murderers walk free just because they are physically strong. I didn't need his help, there was no reason to deny his victims justice. Heck, he was even written with the idea that mots people should leave him in the cage anyway.

[blothulfur]

No. The Qunari do not respect the thieving murderer Hawke or his support for the evil slavery of feudalism that binds the masses into miserable servitude to the fat, corrupt nobility. Nor did they ever state that his role would change little under the Qun, these are the lies of the corpulent dwarven braggart Varric whose non sensical and illogical ravings are like a cancer in the body of truth. Why anyone of basic intelligence would judge them as ought but perversions utterly escapes me.

The rearing of Qunari children free of the taint of bias, expectation and prejudice that family bring is a good thing, tribalism places ones peoples above all others and therefore undermines the society and the unified will of the masses. And better our way than the Thedas way of blood deciding your station in life rather than ability, that is if the child even lives to adulthood as the infant mortality rate in the dirty and stinking hovels of the oppressed lower born bas takes more than half of the children born before maturity. Yet this commitment to neither protect or improve the lot of the most vulnerable is said to be freedom, then where is the choice for the babes cold corpse.

As for the Sten who returned from Thedas and his crimes, though they are mitigated by his aiding in the saviour of an entire country and maybe more they are not forgiven. Even though he thought himself doomed to become Vashoth in a land far from a home that he could never return to, he gave in to the native roaring passions of the Kossith due to his culture shock and injuries. This is a sign of weakness that must be struck from his body, mind and soul by the Ben hassrath lest in future service he submit to it again.

But in the end the corrupt, repressive and regressive nations of Thedas shall fall to what must be, for in their illogical and ugly feudalism they are a true bane to all peoples and the greatest evil ever borne by this world. The ever victorious armies of the greater good shall sweep them from the skein of history and grant the opressed of Thedas true freedom and set their feet on the path to enlightenment.

Victory is in the Qun.

[NedPepper]

The one part you guys seem to be overlooking is that even the Arishok slips from his Qun teachings. I imagine a lot of them do. What I found interesting about Tallis is that she is smart enough to know that not everything the Qun teaches is right. Just like a character like Sebastian or Anders, they struggle with their own religious philosophical identities.

It's not a question of if the Qun is good or evil, but how do the followers who practice it use the teachings. Like most people in Thedas, and particularly Kirkwall, we saw extremes. Tallis and Sten seem to be the chinks in the armor. Sten is not as callous and driven by his philosophy as he'd have you think. That's the beauty of the character.

The Qun, like the Chantry, is flawed and made up of individuals (which is why there ARE Tal-Vashoth). It's never a question of good and evil. It's a grey area. Anders doesn't speak for all mages. Meridith doesn't speak for all Templars. Varric certainly doesn't speak for all dwarves. Fenris sure as heck doesn't speak for all elves, and even Merrill has issues with her Dalish upbringing and teachings, which is why she has to come to Kirkwall to begin with.

[NedPepper]

I'll even go out on a limb and say that if we ever see Sten again, he won't be the same guy you found in that cage. The events of his time in Ferelden changed him, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's leading some kind of offshoot Qunari philosophy. If we know anything about Thedas, it's that, like the real world, the stringent religious entities are prone to infighting.

I daresay the Qunari need this or they end up becoming irrelevant.