67 réponses à ce sujet

[DA_GamerGal]

I posted the following topic http://social.biowar...5/index/8529757 and it led to some interesting opinions and comments about 'gender neutral" protagonists and/or dialogue options. So I decided to post this particular topic here, so I could get opinions and feedback from both male and female gamers.

In a RPG (or any genre of game) do you feel that if the player is offered the choice to choose the gender of the PC that the protagonist should remain as "gender neutral" as possible when it comes to:

1) Dialogue choices
2) Animation/movement
3) Clothing
4) Reaction to given quest/situation
5) Romantic interests
6)  Promotion/Marketing

Or do you want some type of differences between the two genders- subtle or otherwise?

Answers? Opinions? Comments?

Modifié par krissyjf, 20 octobre 2011 - 03:19 .

[Dominus]

Whoops. Modified my post. How about that.

Modifié par DominusVita, 20 octobre 2011 - 03:03 .

[snfonseka]

Are you serious? the answer is no. With all due respect, the idea is somewhat stupid because it will negate the purpose of letting the player choose the gender in the first place. At least, please explain your idea of gender neutrality.

Because introducing an idea with two words and give a list and then ask others opinions is not a good way to start a discussion. Give some example/ description first what do you mean. For example what do you mean by "Animation/movement"? Do you want to see female Shepard to walk like a male (or vice versa)? So please give your idea to others other than posting a list, then I am sure others also can add something constructive.<_<

Modifié par snfonseka, 20 octobre 2011 - 03:01 .

[RamirezWolfen]

Well I think the covers of games that allow players to pick either gender should be gender neutral, like the Fallout games or Elder Scrolls. Mass Effect should never have had default Shepard on the cover.

[ReallyRue]

1) I think the dialogue should refer to gender when appropriate. DAO seemed pretty good at that, along with refering to the background of your character. However, there were some occasions that were annoying, like when talking to Alistair about drinking, a male PC can reply "I bet I could out-drink him", whereas the equivalent for the female was "just one of the boys, I see". I know it's not exactly the same thing, but it's along those lines. If there are gender assumptions in the dialogue, it should be on the behalf of other characters, not your own.

2) Not to bothered either way. I liked LadyHawke and MaleHawke's different walks in DA2, but I also liked femShep and maleShep's shared walk in ME1.

3) Variety.

4) Don't really understand the question. If you mean straight/gay options instead of bi, that's kind of a different issue to gender neutrality.

5) Yeah. Like in the promotion of ME, people tend to refer to Shepard as "he" all the time, instead of "he or she". Sometimes it's never mentioned/shown that you can be female. Though having defaults for both sexes is a good start.

Edit: Cleaned up the mess.

Modifié par ReallyRue, 20 octobre 2011 - 03:07 .

[Siansonea]

I think that many things that we characterize as gender differences are really just personality differences. A good game will allow you to customize your character's personality traits regardless of gender. After all, there are very few personality traits that are unique to a specific gender, I certainly can't think of one.

As far as clothing goes, I think that there should be lots of options, lots of ability to customize the colors and whatnot, and call it a day. Sure there will be gender differences, it comes with the territory of clothing male and female bodies.

Romance options should be well-written, and there should be lots of options. I don't mind the "all bisxual" scenario, after all, if you're only playing one of the options, you may not necessarily be aware of all the paths not taken—just like in real life.

As for promotion and marketing, a customizable protagonist is a feature that should be advertised.

I also think that a really good game would have several voice-acting options for the protagonist for each gender, and the ability to adjust the pitch of the voice up and down a bit.

[DA_GamerGal]

snfonseka wrote...

Are you serious? the answer is no. With all due respect, the idea is somewhat stupid because it will negate the purpose of letting the player choose the gender in the first place. At least, please explain your idea of gender neutrality.

Because introducing an idea with two words and give a list and then ask others opinions is not a good way to start a discussion. Give some example/ description first what do you mean. For example what do you mean by "Animation/movement"? Do you want to see female Shepard to walk like a male (or vice versa)? So please give your idea to others other than posting a list, then I am sure others also can add something constructive.

Gender Neutral: meaning that there is absolutely no differences between a male PC or a female PC other than appearance and voice (This term is not something that I came up with, but something that has been used by many other players, both male and female, on the various boards that I have read and posted on).

[DA_GamerGal]

RamirezWolfen wrote...

Well I think the covers of games that allow players to pick either gender should be gender neutral, like the Fallout games or Elder Scrolls. Mass Effect should never have had default Shepard on the cover.

What do you think about putting both male and female protagonists on the cover or featuring them both in all promotions of the game? I tend to like this idea the best, but I get what you are saying about covers such as Fallout.

A few people on the other thread suggested showing all the characters... not sure about that option myself.

[DA_GamerGal]

ReallyRue wrote...

1) I think the dialogue should refer to gender when appropriate. DAO seemed pretty good at that, along with refering to the background of your character. However, there were some occasions that were annoying, like when talking to Alistair about drinking, a male PC can reply "I bet I could out-drink him", whereas the equivalent for the female was "just one of the boys, I see". I know it's not exactly the same thing, but it's along those lines. If there are gender assumptions in the dialogue, it should be on the behalf of other characters, not your own.

I liked how the genders were treated in DA:O. It added to the re-playability factor more having some of those differences between the genders. I think DA2 had less of these differences. I actually don't mind if the PC had gender-specifc  dialogue options... but I am not as bothered by possible cliched or stereotypical dialogue as some folks.

2) Not to bothered either way. I liked LadyHawke and MaleHawke's different walks in DA2, but I also liked femShep and maleShep's shared walk in ME1.

I didn't mind FemHawke's walk, but it seems a lot of players thought it was too exaggerated.

3) Variety.

4) Don't really understand the question. If you mean straight/gay options instead of bi, that's kind of a different issue to gender neutrality.

Well, in DA:O one of the major differences in playing as a female Warden, was the fact that only a female could romance Alistair. In DA2, both sexes could romance all the party members (No... I am not forgetting about Sebastian, but his so-called "romance" was a joke- even as a female you really can't romance him so he doesn't count).

5) Yeah. Like in the promotion of ME, people tend to refer to Shepard as "he" all the time, instead of "he or she". Sometimes it's never mentioned/shown that you can be female. Though having defaults for both sexes is a good start.

Which is why I am so glad about the whole FemShep promotion they have been doing... but I am sure that if this wasn't going to be the last game in the series, they would have continued on with the male Shep icon.

[RPGamer13]

This idea of so-called "gender neutrality" doesn't exist. Actions are cut and dry, they're either considered masculine or feminine. And if there's a choice between male and female then I expect there to be differences in the body language and animation department.

As for advertisement, I feel the female character aspect should be featured over the male counterpart simply because it's implied right now that you can play either a male or female in a game with character customization if you can play a female, I've hardly seen a female PC in such games without there being an option to be male.

Modifié par RPGamer13, 20 octobre 2011 - 04:13 .

[DA_GamerGal]

Siansonea II wrote...

Romance options should be well-written, and there should be lots of options. I don't mind the "all bisxual" scenario, after all, if you're only playing one of the options, you may not necessarily be aware of all the paths not taken—just like in real life.

That is a good point... I never thought about it in that way.. that unless you play as both genders you probably wouldn't be aware that the LI are bisexual.

As for promotion and marketing, a customizable protagonist is a feature that should be advertised.

This. When I first picked up DA:O I had never played any of BioWare's games before and since it didn't specify on the box that the PC could be played as either male or female, I decided not to buy it because I was looking for a game that wasn't just centered around a male protagonist as I already had so many of those types. It was months before I finally bought it. Of course I am SO happy that I did, because it has become one of my favorite games to play.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Absolute bad idea. I play games to guide a character through the story of their life. Gender is a key component of who people are and is required to make a life's story satisfying.

[happy_daiz]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Absolute bad idea. I play games to guide a character through the story of their life. Gender is a key component of who people are and is required to make a life's story satisfying.

Well said.

In addition, there is nothing more irritating to me than playing a female pc, and being referred to as "he". <_< Or not being given the option, but alas, I digress.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

No, this is bull****.

[Jakedee010v2]

What a load of crap.

[Carfax]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Absolute bad idea. I play games to guide a character through the story of their life. Gender is a key component of who people are and is required to make a life's story satisfying.

This pretty much.  Gender neutrality may sound appealing in a feminist lecture, but in reality, it contradicts human nature so most people will find it distasteful and contrived.

[Gabey5]

that defeats the whole purpose of having the different genders in game. If nothing changes, subtle or major then there is no point

[xxSylphxx]

I think that NPCs in a game world should respond to your PC based upon their gender (amongst other things) and whatever opinion they have of your gender (amongst other things). Sten in DAO both amused and annoyed me and by extension my female characters in that game because of his preconceived notions about what role(s) women should play. The fact that my female characters were not abiding his idea of those roles and were able to sway his opinion, about the PC if not the subject as a whole, was the obvious but still somewhat rewarding payoff.

While I did find the never-ending stream of prejudices amongst NPCs in DAO, both toward my PC and each other, to be tiresome at times and too oft without any reward it did add a degree of realism for me. Would I prefer to impact those prejudices either positively or negatively? Definitely! Allowing the PC to either condone or redress any NPC held belief or prejudice I think opens the game world to all and closes it on no one.

I don’t think gender neutrality in a game truly addresses any of the problems people often have with gender roles in video games. I’d see it as the developer burying their heads in the sand to avoid tackling the tough subject of how to handle gender in a way that doesn’t end up offending someone. I think allowing the player the option to flesh out what role they want the PC to play and respond to NPCs regardless of their gender is a better answer. In other words, define the world and those within it but let the player define the PC.

Modifié par xxSylphxx, 20 octobre 2011 - 08:40 .

[Volus Warlord]

"Gender neutral?" lol!

It's.. retarded.

"Oh, my, here comes big tough gender neutral Shep! Be afraid of its political correctness!"

[HoonDing]

This is a joke, right?

Oh wait, it's BSN. Carry on.

Modifié par virumor, 20 octobre 2011 - 09:50 .

[DRUNK_CANADIAN]

Gender bias is fine.

Focus on target audience...and either a generic male protagonist or sex object female protagonist apparently appeals to both sexes.

[Centauri2002]

RamirezWolfen wrote...

Well I think the covers of games that allow players to pick either gender should be gender neutral, like the Fallout games or Elder Scrolls. Mass Effect should never have had default Shepard on the cover.

Wow, I actually agree with you on something.

To the OP, I think I'd prefer subtle differences over no differences. Otherwise, it does somewhat negate the whole point of having a choice. I want my choices in a game to make a difference, even the selection of gender. Whether that is shaped in pronouns in dialogue or the clothing my character wears. I'd still like to see a difference. Although, stereotypes are to be avoided.

[jlb524]

Yes *agrees with Nyoka*.

Most attempts at adding in 'gender difference' boil down to male/female stereotypes.
Or, to differentiate the female playthrough, they add in a few sleazebags hitting on the female PC.  

Gabey5 wrote...

that defeats the whole purpose of having the different genders in game. If nothing changes, subtle or major then there is no point

Yet some people would still gravitate towards playing a female while others a male.  It's similar to how some people tend to create blonde PCs while others tend to create redheads.  

I like raven haired female PCs for some reason.

Modifié par jlb524, 20 octobre 2011 - 11:22 .

[HoonDing]

jlb524 wrote...

Yes *agrees with Nyoka*.

Most attempts at adding in 'gender difference' boil down to male/female stereotypes.
Or, to differentiate the female playthrough, they add in a few sleazebags hitting on the female PC.  

But a good game lets you turn the tables on the sleazebag.