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[naledgeborn]

One thing that often gets overlooked by a lot of posters is that not all mages are equal.

In rare cases mages can conjure entire lightning storms and can bend the elements to their will as if they were in the Fade (the Warden, Morrigan, Hawke, Merrill, ect).

But the most common "mage" is the poor bastard that can barely light a candle wick on fire. These are the people who should have their "freedom". But since their isn't a TMAT (Thedas magical aptitude test) Templars lock them all up for their own safety. More often than not these are the people who fail their Harrowings or opt for Tranquility. Because those are their only choices.

Either you're a prodigy like Bethany Hawke and pwn every demon during your Harrowing or you're just some kid that accidently lights peoples' hair on fire when you're nervous but you don't really command anything at all..

The magi that can cast firestorms are 1 in 100.  

It sucks that this is never highlighted in game except for codex entries. The Chantry sure does it's best to hype the Magi threat to the rest of world.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 21 octobre 2011 - 12:35 .

[whykikyouwhy]

I'm not well-versed in matters of the Circle (hello...Witch of the Wilds, maleficar, etc), but I lean towards Bethany's viewpoint of its presence, I suppose. What was interesting to me was her conversation with Hawke about realizing that magic comes from the Maker. Essentially, it's not something to be repulsed by - it is a natural thing. It's a gift, and it is a part of the mage's identity.

While the institution of the Circle is not ideal by any means, Bethany was able to find clarity there. She emerges from its halls in Act 3 as a strong woman of conviction and confidence, someone who has accepted *who* she is. Much of that outlook may be a direct result of upbringing - Malcolm's patient tutelage, Leandra's compassion, etc. Anders did not have that experience, that guidance. Perhaps that is part of the difference in their individual outlooks on who they are and what magic means to them.

[Xilizhra]

If anyone has anything else to contribute, as far as information about the Circle, on either side of the fence, or simply wishes to discuss it: Feel free to do so. Do your views of the Circle lean more towards those like Anders or Grace, or do they lean more toward those like Bethany and Wynne?

Move Bethany over to the side. She winds up joining the mage rebellion herself; you vastly overestimate her opinion of the Circle. Not to the extent of Anders (it's hard to tell anything about Grace, since all we know she did before being possessed was run away). Wynne is... well, quite frankly, a weakling apologist, rather like Irving. Wynne seems to have badly glossed over a lot of issues in the Circle, or just not seen at all what Anders had, which would seem to imply that she's been walking around with her eyes closed.
Quite frankly, I don't care if there have been past compromises. I don't care if templars have the potential to not abuse the near-absolute power they've been given. I don't care if there are people who have happiness in slavery. The Chantry's control will be broken, the Templar Order obliterated, or I die trying.

Have we heard any mages who don't become bloodmages or abominations speak of the Circle the way Anders does?

Bethany by the end.

[The Hierophant]

naledgeborn wrote...

One thing that often gets overlooked by a lot of posters is that not all mages are equal.

In rare cases mages can conjure entire lightning storms and can bend the elements to their will as if they were in the Fade (the Warden, Morrigan, Hawke, Merrill, ect).

But the most common "mage" is the poor bastard that can barely light a candle wick on fire. These are the people who should have their "freedom". But since their isn't a TMAT (Thedas magical aptitude test) Templars lock them all up for their own safety. More often than not these are the people who fail their Harrowings or opt for Tranquility. Because those are their only choices.

Either you're a prodigy like Bethany Hawke and pwn every demon during your Harrowing or you're just some kid that accidently lights peoples' hair on fire when you're nervous but you don't really command anything at all..

The magi that can cast firestorms are 1 in 100.  

It sucks that this is never highlighted in game except for codex entries. The Chantry sure does it's best to hype the Magi threat to the rest of world.

I think the problem  with a magi who can barely light a candle, is that he/she's easy prey for spirits, and demons.

[Xilizhra]

And after that boilerplate to get me to quench some of my rage, have an actual analysis.

It's been sworn (in every definition of the word) at me on these forums that mages in the Circle are forbidden from any outside contact, and that they can't even send or receive letters. However, it appears the Kirkwall Circle (supposedly the harshest and most inhumanely restrictive) allows Bethany correspondence with the outside world, as mentioned between Isabela and Circle Bethany in MotA.

Hawke is a fairly powerful noble. As seen with Anders' and Samson's dialogues, Hawke is an exception.

Meredith even allows Bethany to leave, without Templar escort, pure honor code, to go to some party. It's not like she's the only one, or that Kirkwall is somehow both the strictest and most lenient at the same time. Wynne, of the Ferelden Circle, seems free to travel and go about whatever business she pleases. In Awakening, we find that mages from across Thedas even have enough freedom to have a convention in Nevarra to discuss cutting ties with the Chantry.

Meredith's insane in more than one way. She has flashes of lucidity at times during which she seems to err greatly on the side of leniency as some way of compromising for the bad days on which the sword is pushing her into greater zeal. Also, there's the fact that Hawke could possibly make trouble for the templars, especially in Act 3, if Bethany was treated badly. Cullen may be leaning on people as well, as a favor to Hawke for the Enemies Among Us business.

We also know that people are free to visit the Circle, what with ANYONE allowed into the Gallows in DA2 - except when it was being used to blockade Ferelden refugees (the poor are treated worse than mages). Mages are free to interact with visitors, as we're able to in DA2.

Tell that to the one who was going to be whipped for talking with any outsiders. Only the courtyard appears free to visit, and only a few people are there. And the only people we actually see visiting the Gallows in the mage section are Leandra and Gamlen, again connected to Bethany, who's clearly a special case.

Individual Circle Mages are even known to (without becoming apostates) leave and take sides in conflicts throughout Thedas, even in petty disputes between lords. The Circle's neutrality policy isn't even something dictated by the Chantry, but freely elected by the mages.

I imagine bribes are involved.

The Circle itself was a compromise, with the Chantry conceding to Mage demands, that the Mages wished to have a private place in which they were free to study, practice, and flex their magical power, away from any possible discrimination by commoners and in locations they could be more liberal. As we've seen with the ranks of Enchanters, and the Fraternities, the Circle is allowed some self-governance and freedom in what the Mages do. The Templars generally act as a check and balance, to ensure forbidden magics such as blood magic aren't practiced.

It's the best of the worst. A step above total slavery that was really all the mages could get. And what you claim about templars is actually what Fenris said about the Tevinter Circles: "Then it changed. The magisters were permitted to watch over their own, and templars kept only to enforce the law." The templars have a much heavier hand in Andrastian Circles, and we can see flashes of that even in Ferelden, like with templars watching mages while they bathe.

\\The Templars can be considered as much protectors of the Mages as wardens of them. Templars protect mages from their peers, who may become abominations or try to abuse blood magic (which would allow them to mind control other, etc). The Circle not only supplies Mages with food and board on-par with that of nobility, which is far better than the vast majority of Thedas has, but supplies them with lyrium for use in their experiments and studies - something not necessary for anything, but a pleasure and freedom the Mages demanded in the formation of the Circle. Not only is the Circle a free place for Mages to practice their magics, but its a haven from the harsh and discriminatory life of the rest of Thedas.

They can be, but honestly they aren't. They're wardens and frequently slavers. Protection is purely incidental and an ideal only held to by a few anomalies that we've seen so far.

About tranquility: It should be noted that during a discussion with Anders, it's verified that Chantry law forbids any mage who has passed the Harrowing from being made Tranquil. It's not a dagger held whimsically at all mage's throats. There are even mages who elect to be made tranquil.

It's a dagger held whimsically at the throats of apprentices, and Harrowed mages can still be thrown into places like Aeonar or just outright killed.

Have we heard any mages who don't become bloodmages or abominations speak of the Circle the way Anders does?

This is stupid. The ones with opinions similar to Anders will very frequently have to resort to blood magic to get anything done, because templars are too good at countering other forms. Anders only isn't a blood mage because he got extremely lucky by getting a pass out of the Circle via the Grey Wardens. It's a saner question to ask how many have said that who didn't outright side with demons, and there's a lot more of them.
Although for your example, we do have Emile de Launcet.

Is the Circle absolute freedom? No. Does absolute freedom exist anywhere in Thedas? Not even for Kings (such as Alistair). I think it's worth considering that, while the Circle is by no means perfect (what is?), that it already IS a compromise, the best situation realistically possible in Thedas, and the negatives are possibly exaggerated due to the sources stating them (bloodmages and abominations), and those contradicting them (Bethany and Wynne). That's not to say that abuses don't happen, but abuses happen everywhere and in everything - yet all institutions in the world aren't torn down over cracks in the system.

Other institutions don't have popular rebellions happening against them. Either they were sparked because mages genuinely did hate the Circle and only needed inspiration, or the templars started attacking them all in retribution for Kirkwall, which actually makes them look way worse... not that they needed the help.

As we've seen, when faced with the thread of death, abuse, rape, etc... many mages will resort to blood magic and demons. Commoners in Thedas are subjected to these threats CONSTANTLY, whereas it's rare in the Circle when compared to outside the Circle. A blood mage can manipulate and control people, en mass, and without any cues to signal it's been done. As magic is an invisible weapon with no rival, the Templars watch over them because there is no other alternative to protect against blood magic and possession. Is "oversight" and "regulation" itself so unreasonable?

When done by magophobic religious zealots? Absolutely.

[LobselVith8]

Circle mage Bethany is allowed to leave because players would complain if she wasn't available for DLC like Templar and Warden Carver are, it's as simple as that. Given how Meredith is squeezing the mages, it's unrealistic to assume she would let one go unsupervised when the First Enchanter doesn't seem to have such freedom.

As for living in the Gallows, Bethany could have easily ended up suffering the same fate as Karl or Alain, but doesn't because the Plot Dictates that she doesn't. I'll never understand why Hawke simply stands there, doing nothing, when Bethany is taken by two templars to a place where he knows one Circle mage was made tranquil against Chantry law (by Alrik), and where at least one templar who seems to condone rape (Kerras) resided.

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Circle mage Bethany is allowed to leave because players would complain if she wasn't available for DLC like Templar and Warden Carver are, it's as simple as that. Given how Meredith is squeezing the mages, it's unrealistic to assume she would let one go unsupervised when the First Enchanter doesn't seem to have such freedom.

Please, you want to be selective about canon now?

As for living in the Gallows, Bethany could have easily ended up suffering the same fate as Karl or Alain, but doesn't because the Plot Dictates that she doesn't. I'll never understand why Hawke simply stands there, doing nothing, when Bethany is taken by two templars to a place where he knows one Circle mage was made tranquil against Chantry law (by Alrik), and where at least one templar who seems to condone rape (Kerras) resided.

We understand, you hate how inactive Hawke is and want to abuse your plot armor. Please shut up about it for one thread.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 octobre 2011 - 03:38 .

[Dave of Canada]

Rojahar wrote...



Meredith even allows Bethany to leave, without Templar escort, pure honor code, to go to some party. It's not like she's the only one, or that Kirkwall is somehow both the strictest and most lenient at the same time. Wynne, of the Ferelden Circle, seems free to travel and go about whatever business she pleases. In Awakening, we find that mages from across Thedas even have enough freedom to have a convention in Nevarra to discuss cutting ties with the Chantry.

Don't forget we've also got Bethany roaming in some mountain range around the Deep Roads during Legacy, something which if I were to be in charge of supervising mages wouldn't be allowed for fear of them running away.

This leads me to believe that Bethany, being a good mage and following the Chantry's rules, achieved the same privileges as Finn and Ines. Fully capable of leaving the Circle, provided they have permission for it and eventually return. "Graduated students" like Wynne are fully capable of leaving the Circle and join the royal court of Ferelden (Alistair, Anora or both).

Leading to my theory that the Circle shouldn't be compared to a prison but more of a boarding school, a place where prospective students are thought their abilities and allowed to do as they please provided they follow the school's rules.

The only difference is that failing the courses leads to tranquility (better than the alternative which could lead to many more mage deaths or just outright execution) and disobeying the rules leads to punishment (varies on the rules broken from a slap on the wrist to execution), not any different than the punishment which are applied to those outside of the Circles.

The only difference is that when they're locked up, they don't see any fancy food / clothes / beds / education and are left there to rot despite their crime possibly being frabicated, torture might be applied depending on the situation.

Individual Circle Mages are even known to (without becoming apostates) leave and take sides in conflicts throughout Thedas, even in petty disputes between lords. The Circle's neutrality policy isn't even something dictated by the Chantry, but freely elected by the mages.

The Circle itself was a compromise, with the Chantry conceding to Mage demands, that the Mages wished to have a private place in which they were free to study, practice, and flex their magical power, away from any possible discrimination by commoners and in locations they could be more liberal. As we've seen with the ranks of Enchanters, and the Fraternities, the Circle is allowed some self-governance and freedom in what the Mages do. The Templars generally act as a check and balance, to ensure forbidden magics such as blood magic aren't practiced.

It's pretty telling when we've got the mages being called toward Cumberland to discuss whether they should split away from the Chantry, a group not being allowed to do any decisions on their own part would suggest to me that they'd be unable to leave for Cumberland. At the very least not without Templar escort.

What's really telling is that despite the meeting in Cumberland which the mages were going to dicuss seperating from the Chantry (something which, if I were in charge of the Chantry, I'd refuse), nothing changed and we didn't hear a word of it.

The status quo remained completely unchanged, something which implies that most mages advocated to remain under Chantry supervision. Whether it's out of fear or not, it shouldn't matter because it shows how many people wouldn't be interested in  fighting for their "freedom".

The Circle not only supplies Mages with food and board on-par with that of nobility, which is far better than the vast majority of Thedas has, but supplies them with lyrium for use in their experiments and studies - something not necessary for anything, but a pleasure and freedom the Mages demanded in the formation of the Circle. Not only is the Circle a free place for Mages to practice their magics, but its a haven from the harsh and discriminatory life of the rest of Thedas.

Don't forget that mages are provided with an education, something which nobody but nobility and those who join the Chantry are provided. The current mage lifestyle is very comparable to nobility, despite them feeling it's unjust (while their problems with the Templar are pretty much the problems everybody suffer from any guard, the only difference is Chantry supervision on the mages part).

About tranquility: It should be noted that during a discussion with Anders, it's verified that Chantry law forbids any mage who has passed the Harrowing from being made Tranquil. It's not a dagger held whimsically at all mage's throats. There are even mages who elect to be made tranquil.

And tranquility happens to be funding the high class life styles which the mages are living, it allows the tranquil mages to leave the Circle and live "normal" lives if they choose it and replaces outright execution as an option. Abolishing the Tranquil would simply hurt the mages in the long run unless they'd find another source of income.

Have we heard any mages who don't become bloodmages or abominations speak of the Circle the way Anders does?

Feynriel, sort of. Though he complains whether you send him there or not.

That's not to say that abuses don't happen, but abuses happen everywhere and in everything - yet all institutions in the world aren't torn down over cracks in the system.

Which is personally the key here, we're dealing with a civilization who doesn't really give a damn about it's people. Mages are being treated better than nearly everybody else (except possibly Chantry folk and nobility), everybody closes their eyes and blocks their ears about the truth of this.

They'd rather want to reshape Thedas to be exactly like modern day society, despite the values they preach so much as being incredible not existing until 1700-1800 in our own world and offering the concepts are cheap trope as justification (which, btw, perfectly describes Anders except that he sees the good in the Chantry).

About the last question...

My feelings on the Circle lean more toward Act 3 Meredith if you side with her at the initial confrontation, the whole "Do not brand me a tyrant!" speech too.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 octobre 2011 - 04:49 .

[Xilizhra]

[quote]And how did you come to the conclusion that the truth spoken by blood mages and abominations is more valid than... mages who don't consort with demons?[/quote]
Plenty of blood mages don't consort with demons. Jowan never did, Alain eschewed it, etc.

[quote]How do you come to the conclusion that Wynne, Irving, Bethany, and others are all liars or willfully ignorant "traitors" rather than Anders (possessed by a demon) and Grace (a bloodmage with no regard for human life, who's consorted with demons and is likely under their influence) are not only speaking the truth, but also the overwhelming majority?[/quote]
Because the rebellion happens.

[quote]It's not that she wanted to bring an end to the establishment. It's that she had no choice.[/quote]
I believe she mentions being active in fighting for mage freedom by the end.

[quote]Isabela is an exception?[/quote]
If Isabela's been in the Gallows, she's a thief and rather good at being stealthy.

[quote]And what about the same leniency offered to Wynne and others, who don't have the excuse of being nobility or under Meredith?[/quote]
Greagoir is known for favoritism and Kinloch Hold is relatively lenient.

[quote]Hawke, and any of Hawke's party members, are all able to visit the Gallows in Act 1, before Bethany is even taken. There are also shops, run by the mages and others, in the Gallows. Who are they selling to?[/quote]
Yes, that would be the courtyard, the only accessible part.

[quote]You imagine? It seems like you're trying to create facts to fit your views, instead of basing your views off facts.[/quote]
We don't have all the facts. This is inevitable.

[quote]That's the point though. Mages like Grace, for example, would need to be watched at all times by a Templar. Not all Mages are subjected to such treatment, as you've admitted with Bethany, Wynne, and Irving. The latter two have
no claims of noble or wealthy priviledge, yet still enjoy the same treatment. Only those who abuse their freedoms or show they're prone to abusing their power seem to generally face scrutiny.[/quote]
Are you forgetting that Wynne had her child stolen? And both she and Irving are definite templar suckups.

[quote]As soon as Templars were removed from a role of oversight, and delegated solely to reactionary enforcement, mages were able to take control of the government - and regularly practice blood magic in private and at parties among each other. It shows that the "honor system" isn't good enough for EVERY mage. For mages like Bethany and Wynne? Yes. And they enjoy that priviledge. For known blood mages and troublemakers? Of course not.[/quote]
Even Fenris isn't that shortsighted. Immediately afterward, he says that a lot of that was because the magisters were all powerful nobility and that the Chantry simply wasn't strong enough in the Imperium itself to keep enforcing anything. The magisters were already in a position to reassume power, and all they had to do was erode their walls. This isn't the case for mages elsewhere.

[quote]You seem to just be making an opinion statement, rather than something based off any kind of evidence. Even Cullen, who's proven to uphold and believe completely in the ideals of the Templar Order unlike someone like Thrask, has stated that the Templars work to protect the mages from themselves just as much as they work to protect others from mages.[/quote]
The only other templars we know of who've said things like that are Thrask and Keran, who wound up as rebels. Maybe Hugh as well. It's not necessarily universal, but the institution is inherently abusive.

[quote]"If you are possessed by a demon and become an abomination - no longer yourself - devoted to destruction, then you'll be killed or made tranquil." doesn't seem like an unreasonable policy. If a mage's power cannot be controlled, and if they cannot use their power safely, then there isn't really an alternative. Even the Tevinter Imperium makes use of Templars, the Circle, etc. Even there... there is not absolute "freedom" for mages.[/quote]
Tevinter doesn't have freedom for anyone, but you're missing my point. I don't necessarily object to the Circle itself; what I object to is the Chantry running it and the templars having authority over mages beyond enforcement.

[quote]It's interesting that you disregard the claims of non-bloodmages and non-abominations, of Circle Mages who don't share the views of Anders and Grace, but place so much faith in bloodmages and abominations (people under the influence of demons) as "true" mages who know the truth better than those non-demon-consorting "traitors". I think your reaction to this question speaks volumes for itself.[/quote]
Enough of them were willing to join a continent-wide revolution. Note too mages like Terrie, some other one you can rescue from bounty hunters in Act 3, Feynriel, and others.

[quote]Meredith taking things too far in Kirkwall, as we've seen, were ultimately due to magical/demonic influence by the lyrium idol. Ultimately, all her Templars turned against her though.[/quote]
She was a tyrant before that; the idol just made things marginally worse.

[quote]The Templar Order was established, prior even to their ties with the Chantry, in REACTION to the frequency of abomination rampages and blood mages abusing their power to hurt the common folk.[/quote]
Irrelevant. In its current state, it goes too far and cannot be salvaged. It will be destroyed.

[quote]The first enchanter maintains an antagonistic relationship with Meredith, and it turns out they were right to mistrust him - what with his relationship with Quentin. He was trying to incite a riot at the beginning of Act 3. The First Enchanter was also free to move about Kirkwall as he pleased. DAO shows that First Enchanters have a surprising amount of power. It appears that Orsino is mismanaging his duties, largely out of cowardice and overcompensation, as seen with his protection of Quentin.[/quote]
Orsino did what he had to do to prevent the Circle from being purged. Quentin would never have been a problem if not for Meredith.

[quote]Alain conspired blood mages, and rogue Templars, in kidnapping and blood magic. The Templars also don't judge him harshly without a second opinion enforcing he should be. Otherwise, they're even willing to forgive his actions. That seems pretty lenient, considering his crimes.[/quote]
Cullen's wavering in his loyalties and Meredith is sinking further into madness. Consistency is hardly expected.

[quote]Something I'd like to mention and add, is that the "apostitute" from Act 1 isn't killed or made tranquil by the Templars, even though she indulges in mind controlling blood magic, tried to corrupt the Templar order through mind control (Could some of the crimes committed by Templars like Alrik have even been committed truly by Blood Mages manipulating them, to try and discredit the Order?), and she ruined at least several people's lives (that we know about) such as Kirin's and his sister's. If HAWKE doesn't kill her, then the Templars not only spare her, but leave her of her own mind and able to seek redemption, which she finds. She even has the freedom to write to Hawke, even though at the time she was under house-arrest (which is reasonable considering what she did).[/quote]
She converted. I imagine she'd be a useful example.

[quote]I think it sets a precedent that the Templars aren't "always" strict, and that they even show leniency to someone who probably deserved the die. It contradicts assertions made by those like Anders.[/quote]
Strict enough, and too often.

[Firky]

This is an interesting thread.

Hopefully not too OT. I wonder what a qunari would think of a Tranquil. Like, didn't the Karl thing show that being made Tranquil might actually be reversible? Given the way they control Saarebas, which is kinda different to the way the Circle does, would they still think a Tranquil was dangerous?

[Xilizhra]

What's really telling is that despite the meeting in Cumberland which the mages were going to dicuss seperating from the Chantry (something which, if I were in charge of the Chantry, I'd refuse), nothing changed and we didn't hear a word of it.

The status quo remained completely unchanged, something which implies that most mages advocated to remain under Chantry supervision. Whether it's out of fear or not, it shouldn't matter because it shows how many people wouldn't be interested in fighting for their "freedom".

Years before the end of DA2? Things can change, such as the Aequitarians breaking their alliance with the Loyalists and joining the Libertarians.

And tranquility happens to be funding the high class life styles which the mages are living, it allows the tranquil mages to leave the Circle and live "normal" lives if they choose it and replaces outright execution as an option. Abolishing the Tranquil would simply hurt the mages in the long run unless they'd find another source of income.

Take control of the lyrium trade with the dwarves and work more closely with them on enchantments and the like.

They'd rather want to reshape Thedas to be exactly like modern day society, despite the values they preach so much as being incredible not existing until 1700-1800 in our own world and offering the concepts are cheap trope as justification (which, btw, perfectly describes Anders except that he sees the good in the Chantry).

Hawke and Anders can both speak said values. They clearly exist.

[a1021]

The Cicrle is not slavery. Mages are not forced to work. It is more like a gilded cage. The Kirkwall Circle was an exception, in Ferelden the Circle of Magi was a much friendlier place with the First Enchanter deciding a great deal, like what mage could leave the tower or if they help the wardens.
This rebellion is just a very small minority throwing the hole world into chaos, because they think they are treated wrong. If it weren't mages the rebellion of a few hundred or so people would never be an issue. It's like if the nobility rebelled because they had to live in Hightown. It's a smack in the face for all elves, dalish or not, casteless dwarves and all the other people that starve in the streets or have a life of servitude to some noble.
I find it very hard to side with the mages in this game to be honest.

[Xilizhra]

The Kirkwall Circle was an exception, in Ferelden the Circle of Magi was a much friendlier place with the First Enchanter deciding a great deal, like what mage could leave the tower or if they help the wardens.

He was also a bloody apologist. Orsino made some grievous errors, but at least he had a spine.

This rebellion is just a very small minority throwing the hole world into chaos, because they think they are treated wrong. If it weren't mages the rebellion of a few hundred or so people would never be an issue. It's like if the nobility rebelled because they had to live in Hightown. It's a smack in the face for all elves, dalish or not, casteless dwarves and all the other people that starve in the streets or have a life of servitude to some noble.

On the contrary, I believe that if anything, it'll be an inspiration. The power structure is shaking, perhaps on the verge of breaking. There'll be plenty of opportunities for those willing to seize them. Orlais, the worst culprit for many of the problems you mentioned, is certainly in trouble.

[Firky]

@Rojahar They're good points. I guess the no effort to understand mages thing makes sense; they haven't experimented with Tranquility. I am just very suspicious/wary of the Tranquil, for some reason I can't put my finger on.

"I seriously doubt they give their mages lots of Lyrium to explore the Fade with, where they might encounter tranquility." Forgive my lore ignorance, but how do you encounter tranquility in the Fade?

[Xilizhra]

He admitted the reason he hid Quentin's research was fear of Meredith.

Fear of Meredith purging the Circle.

Also, the final argument he and Meredith had (right when Anders interrupted them by blowing up the Chantry) was his refusing to give Meredith permission (he had to give HER permission - that shows the power the First Enchanter has) to conduct room searches in response to the overwhelming number of blood mages and other forms of corruption within the Gallows.

He did deny her, but there's no guarantee that he'd succeed in the long term; ultimately, he decided to try to appeal to Elthina instead of continuing to argue with Meredith, so I doubt he could have kept it up.

Considering Orsino was in possession of Quentin's research and correspondence with him, it seems he was acting in his own cowardly self-interest instead of the greater good of both the mages under him and everyone else.

I suppose you can think that if you wish.

I'm curious what you base your accusations of Irvine off of, other than simply his not sharing your opinions.

Among other things, he signed off on Jowan's Tranquility after entrapping him.

Orsino even succumbed to the temptations of blood magic, turning himself into a horrific abomination, out of cowardice and hypocrisy, only further proving Meredith's point. Orsino did nothing but hurt the cause of mages with his weakness.

"Out of cowardice and hypocrisy?" Hypocrisy isn't a motivation. Regardless, it was more out of despair; of course, that whole sequence is messed up because it wasn't written properly.

[Sir JK]

I don't intend to barge in on the discussion as such, these two things just caught my eye.

Xilizhra wrote...
Plenty of blood mages don't consort with demons. Jowan never did, Alain eschewed it, etc.

Doesn't the lore say that you pretty much have to learn blood magic from a demon (though not necessarily directly) or possibly using the Scrolls of Banastor? When was this contradicted?

Greagoir is known for favoritism and Kinloch Hold is relatively lenient.

Source?
I mean, I do think Gregoir is rather lenient. But I haven't seen any evidence supporting Kinloch hold is unusually so.  Would you mind pointing me in it's direction?

For all I've seen it's actually the Gallows that are unusually harsh, what with Meredith being known as the "Iron lady" even to non-mages.

Mind, that doesn't mean mages (as a group) doesn't have it difficult. They do.

[Xilizhra]

Doesn't the lore say that you pretty much have to learn blood magic from a demon (though not necessarily directly) or possibly using the Scrolls of Banastor? When was this contradicted?

Jowan learned it from the books Irving "left" in the library.

I mean, I do think Gregoir is rather lenient. But I haven't seen any evidence supporting Kinloch hold is unusually so. Would you mind pointing me in it's direction?

Technically, no one ever directly compares any two Circles, so there's not, strictly speaking, solid evidence for either Kinloch being particularly lenient or the Gallows being particularly harsh.