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[Firky]

Rojahar wrote...

If you die in the Fade, as a mage who's consciously and ritualistically entered it, you're made Tranquil. That's how the elves discovered Tranquility, long before humans. Remember when the Keeper pulls Hawke to the side during the Fenriel fade quest in Act 2, and says that Hawke may need to kill him in the Fade, causing him to become Tranquil.

Ah, yes.

Now I'm wondering why the Rite of Tranquility involves a lyrium brand. Shouldn't they just take/meet the mage in the Fade and kill them? Then it wouldn't be reversible. (If it is.) Or maybe they want/wanted it to be reversible.

Modifié par Firky, 21 octobre 2011 - 05:44 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Xilizhra wrote...

I mean, I do think Gregoir is rather lenient. But I haven't seen any evidence supporting Kinloch hold is unusually so. Would you mind pointing me in it's direction?

Technically, no one ever directly compares any two Circles, so there's not, strictly speaking, solid evidence for either Kinloch being particularly lenient or the Gallows being particularly harsh.

There's a line in the talktable that says "I tried to stay away from her, you know, after Decimus. But... the Circle here is worse than Starkhaven ever was." I think it's Alain who says it.

[Dave of Canada]

Funny how Gregoir was proven right about Jowan.

Sir JK wrote...

Doesn't the lore say that you pretty much have to learn blood magic from a demon (though not necessarily directly) or possibly using the Scrolls of Banastor? When was this contradicted?

Quick mobile post from downtown:
There's no evidence for either side, though it does lean in favor of the demon theory. Scrolls of Banastor, something which is said to teach blood magic, says to summon a demon and bind it or submit yourself to it.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 octobre 2011 - 05:54 .

[Firky]

Rojahar wrote...

If someone fails their rite, afterall, then it means they've become an abomination, and thus need to be immediately killed by the Templars.

Is the fate of every abomination to be killed? Like, Connor was, sort of, half an abomination. And do the Templars always, always know? 

(PS. Thanks for discussion.)

[Dave of Canada]

Connor gave himself to the demon, only way he was "cured". Anybody possessed against their will grows a flesh jacket.

[Xilizhra]

Because Orsino was hiding and working with QUENTIN. You remember that guy, right? Orsino was also collaberating on, preserving, and apparently studying Quentin's blood magic research into creating Harvesters. You don't see anything wrong with that? If Orsino really cared about the safety of other mages under him, instead of his own selfishness, he wouldn't have been harboring his own stash of horrific blood magic research. Then there wouldn't have been anything for Meredith to find, and he could have stood vindicated that she was being unreasonable. But she wasn't, because it turns out she was right.

Orsino had worked with Quentin in the past, at some unspecified time, but put his research aside as too evil and dangerous.

It's not entrapment, because Irving, nor the Mage Warden, goaded him into it. The other way around. He was planning it anyway, and asking for the Mage Warden's help. If you report him to Irving, he tells you to go along with it to get evidence. That's being a snitch and undercover work. Law enforcement does more than that all the time, legally.

Irving left those blood magic books in the library to ensnare anyone who might be inclined to read them.

It proved his hypocrisy, and Meredith's point, that the Kirkwall Circle would resort to Blood Magic. Orsino could have fought without resorting to it. At least then, even if he died, he'd have proved Meredith wrong and died a martyr and hero to the mage cause. Instead, he decided to become a mindless blood-thirsty demonic monster which attacked friend and foe alike, and he died anyway, but as a hypocrite. "Hey, I've never done Blood Magic, I swear, but I've actually been working on this blood magic spell to turn me into a monster and I'm going to try and kill everyone - even my allies."

Meredith deserves no proof of anything. Blood magic isn't inherently evil regardless, and the templars' issues in Kirkwall were utterly self-imposed. Their time is coming to an end, and if I have my way, that end will last forever.

[Xilizhra]

As we've seen with the scrolls in DA2 and the books in DAO, the knowledge itself harbors demons and their influence. Are you really excusing Jowan's use of forbidden magic with "Well, hey, it was tempting. How can he expect to resist it?" That's part of the entire point of mage training. They're continually challenged and pushed to show control and restraint, and finally "prove" they are worthy of trust when they pass their ultimate test - the rite of tranquility, in which they deliberately seal an apprentice in the fade with a tempting demon. In order to earn the kind of trust and priviledges mages like Wynne and Bethany have, a mage must show they can resist temptation.

Forbidding that magic with that penalty attached is inherently unjust regardless. I don't really care what Jowan did so long as the penalty outmatches the crime, and in this case, it greatly does.

As for Ferelden's Circle not being lenient? It's the only Circle Anders has ever been a part of, and his sole case and motivation for the abuses and harshness of the Circle and Templars. So either Anders is hypersensitive (putting all his claims into question) or the Ferelden Circle some exception to the idea that all Circles are abusive nightmarish prisons as Anders claims.

Obviously, Ferelden's Circle isn't lenient. It just seems to be somewhat moreso than other ones.

[Xilizhra]

If it was evil and dangerous (it was) then why didn't he destroy it? Why did he preserve it, study it, and ultimately use it?

You can't destroy knowing how to do something.

Blood Magic requires making a deal with demons. Even ANDERS and JUSTICE (a spirit) thought Blood Magic was unforgivably evil.

I respect Anders, but disagree here.

Not to mention the fact it's illegal, and if a mage thinks they're so above the law as to think they're "entitled" to illegally practice things such as mind control, human sacrifices, and creating twisted necromatic monsters like the Harvester, then it only further proves Fenris, Cullen, and Meredith's points that mages will abuse their powers to put themselves above others.

Because it's illegal. Blood magic isn't inherently bad, but because it's illegal, it attracts those who are inclined to illegality, for whatever reason, and those reasons have been repeatedly propagandized as various forms of harmful selfishness.

[Xilizhra]

Is there anything you think is or should be forbidden to a mage? Is there any penalty you find just for anything? At what point do mages have to take responsibility?

Obviously. That which we would consider a legitimate crime for a nonmage.

Which other ones? It's not as harsh as Kirkwall's, but as we've heard in-game, people from other Circles find Kirkwall's to be by far the harshest in Thedas. You first asserted as fact that Ferelden was lenient, and now you're asserting that they're one of the harsher Circles?

No Circle is lenient. Ferelden's seems to be, relatively speaking, a more lenient one.

[lobi]

Before act three, go to the gate near the herbalist at the gallows and listen for a bit. I don't remember any sounds like that at Fereldon. May be Templars training but I have doubts.

[Xilizhra]

He had Quentin's notes, he admitted. He's also could have NOT USED IT, regardless, if it was so evil. Also, considering Quentin's research was developed through years of murder, necromancy, and blood magic... how dumb is Orsino not to figure out it's evil until the research is completed? Why did he read all of it? Why didn't he PERSONALLY try to stop Quentin (if he was so afraid of Meredith's reaction)? BTW, Meredith couldn't do the Rite of Annulment without either the Grand Cleric's permission or if the Grand Cleric was killed (Anders' fault).

We only know that Quentin started murdering after his wife died and he went crazy, and he also seems to have dropped all academic necromancy at that point, if his dialogue to Gascard about not being able to be an adequate teacher is any indication. Why he couldn't stop Quentin himself is less clear, but so are a lot of things in this game and you jump to plenty of conclusions yourself here.

Disagree based on what? You seem to be constantly condradicting in-game lore and evidence, with no evidence of your own but "Because I say so" and unless you're one of the writers for Dragon Age is a fallacious "point".

Merrill. She's completely non-corrupt morally. So is my own Hawke, for that matter.

If the practice of an undetectable magic that requires bloodshed and is used for controlling others and creating necromatic horrors shouldn't be illegal, then what should be to you?

Using it for evil purposes. Also, see above post.

[Xilizhra]

You think if a non-mage could bleed people and use their blood to mind control others and create monsters, that it would be legal? You think that the actions of Lady Herriman (Sebastian's quest) in consorting with a demon were legal? Really? You think that?

Lady Harriman was being all but mind-controlled by Allure (twisting normal jealousy into bloodlust counts, even if it's not planting totally new emotions) and stumbled upon her by accident. I don't consider her truly guilty of anything.

Which is it? First you claimed that Ferelden was a lenient Circle. Then you claimed it was one of the harsher Circles. Now you claim that Ferelden is simply one of the "less harsh" but "less harsh" compared to what other Circle other than Kirkwall's? The only established fact on "how bad is each Circle" is that Kirkwall's is considered the worst.

No, you just misunderstood me the first two times.

[Xilizhra]

Rojahar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Merrill. She's completely non-corrupt morally. So is my own Hawke, for that matter.

Have you... completed Merrill's storyline...?

And the devs, I think it was David Gaider specifically, stated that the blood magic for Hawke in DA2 is purely a gameplay mechanic, and that's why it's never mentioned if you use it.

I have. Murderous abomination and all. Luckily, I was able to dupe said abomination's clan into not committing mass suicide trying to kill me.

[Firky]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

I think the templars always know because the mage turns into a giant meatball.

True. But, and I'm only getting this from wiki discussion, so it might be wrong, apparently the higher level demons have a measure of control as to how much they possess.

And it did seem as if the desire demon was "toying" with Connor, like possessing and then retreating? 

(Also, although I know it's a common criticism that the game isn't too smart at recognising mages, in DAII, no one calls Anders on being an abomination - do they?)

I guess, what I'm wondering about the Kirkwall Circle is whether they would either miss an in house abomination, or condone it - if the mage wasn't a meatball - if they were more like Connor.