[quote]Rojahar wrote...
It's been sworn (in every definition of the word) at me on these forums that mages in the Circle are forbidden from any outside contact, and that they can't even send or receive letters. However, it appears the Kirkwall Circle (supposedly the harshest and most inhumanely restrictive) allows Bethany correspondence with the outside world, as mentioned between Isabela and Circle Bethany in MotA. [/quote]
Bethany is an Amell. Connor had contact with Arl Eamon. Finn had contact with his parents. It seems that prominent families may be able to contact their children in the Circles of Magi, but we see this isn't the case with Karl and Ella, who don't seem to come from prominent families.
[quote]Rojahar wrote...
Meredith even allows Bethany to leave, without Templar escort, pure honor code, to go to some party. [/quote]
Which seems more like game mechanics than canon considering that Hawke (when Champion) can publicly oppose Meredith's dictatorship, and Meredith can even threaten Hawke when they initially confront each other at the Gallows, but she still permits Bethany to leave? Even Bethany's codex entry notes that Meredith is clamoring down on the mages in the Gallows, so this makes little sense besides accomodating the player:
"Bethany is surprised at how many templars are honest Andrastians, who believe they serve the Maker and the people by keeping mages from using blood magic. However, this up-close look at the templars has also shown her the abuses that inevitably occur when one group of people is given life-and-death power over another. Bethany supports the Circle as it is, but this grows harder as Knight-Commander Meredith clamps down more tightly."
[quote]Rojahar wrote...
It's not like she's the only one, or that Kirkwall is somehow both the strictest and most lenient at the same time. Wynne, of the Ferelden Circle, seems free to travel and go about whatever business she pleases. In Awakening, we find that mages from across Thedas even have enough freedom to have a convention in Nevarra to discuss cutting ties with the Chantry. [/quote]
Wynne is a Senior Enchanter who is up to be the next First Enchanter, and even she needs to get permission to leave. In fact, she gets permission to leave to help end the Fifth Blight. Also, we see that the meeting in Cumberland will likely be compromised of high-ranking Enchanters, and Wynne advises The Warden that the Chantry would rather kill every single mage than see them free.
[quote]Rojahar wrote...
We also know that people are free to visit the Circle, what with ANYONE allowed into the Gallows in DA2 - except when it was being used to blockade Ferelden refugees (the poor are treated worse than mages). Mages are free to interact with visitors, as we're able to in DA2. [/quote]
I respectfully disagree. Anders came to Kirkwall because Karl wrote to him that the Circle was a prison, where mages were being kept in their rooms. We see this was the case with Emille. We know Ella tried to leave simply to let her mother know what happened to her. One mage notes that they will be whipped if they even speak to a civilian.
[quote]Rojahar wrote...
Individual Circle Mages are even known to (without becoming apostates) leave and take sides in conflicts throughout Thedas, even in petty disputes between lords. The Circle's neutrality policy isn't even something dictated by the Chantry, but freely elected by the mages. [/quote]
The First Enchanter approves of the Circle getting involved in conflicts, and even then he deals with the Knight-Commander, as we see with Irving and Greagoir (who denied Irving and King Cailan more than
seven mages from entering the battle at Ostagar).
[quote]Rojahar wrote...
The Circle itself was a compromise, with the Chantry conceding to Mage demands, that the Mages wished to have a private place in which they were free to study, practice, and flex their magical power, away from any possible discrimination by commoners and in locations they could be more liberal. As we've seen with the ranks of Enchanters, and the Fraternities, the Circle is allowed some self-governance and freedom in what the Mages do. The Templars generally act as a check and balance, to ensure forbidden magics such as blood magic aren't practiced. [/quote]
The Circle was what happened as an alternative to murdering mages who were committing a peaceful protest at a cathedral, which is precisely the course of action that Divine Ambrosia II wanted to pursue (which her templars had convinced her not to), as we read in the History of the Circle.
Whether the Chantry controlled Circles are good or bad is a matter of opinion that people generally disagree on, and while some view it as necessary, it's an institution that some mages view as slavery.
[quote]Rojahar wrote...
The Templars can be considered as much protectors of the Mages as wardens of them. Templars protect mages from their peers, who may become abominations or try to abuse blood magic (which would allow them to mind control other, etc). The Circle not only supplies Mages with food and board on-par with that of nobility, which is far better than the vast majority of Thedas has, but supplies them with lyrium for use in their experiments and studies - something not necessary for anything, but a pleasure and freedom the Mages demanded in the formation of the Circle. Not only is the Circle a free place for Mages to practice their magics, but its a haven from the harsh and discriminatory life of the rest of Thedas. [/quote]
Because the Chantry preaches intolerance and hatred against mages, to the point that Andrastians (like Bethany) think mages are 'cursed.' I don't see how altruistic the Chantry is when they are putting mages in Circles where they are being protected from the kind of intolerance that exists precisely because of the Chantry's religious teachings about mages and magic.
[quote]Rojahar wrote...
About tranquility: It should be noted that during a discussion with Anders, it's verified that Chantry law forbids any mage who has passed the Harrowing from being made Tranquil. It's not a dagger held whimsically at all mage's throats. There are even mages who elect to be made tranquil. [/quote]
Tell that to the mages who were made tranquil by Ser Alrik. He even threatened a child mage, Ella, with tranquility and implied rape (and her being a 'child' is noted by Bethany's letter in Act II, where she says she was immediately put through the Harrowing when she entered the Gallows).
[quote]Rojahar wrote...
Comparing dialog from Circle Bethany and Warden Bethany throughout the game and the two DLCs, it's apparent that Bethany considers the Gray Wardens the miserable prison and is fairly happy in the Circle. This is important because it reinforces that even in the Kirkwall Circle there is more than one viewpoint from mages, and that they are not united in sharing the views of Anders and Grace. Have we heard any mages who don't become bloodmages or abominations speak of the Circle the way Anders does? [/quote]
The mage protagonist can address the Circle as a 'prison' and an 'oppressive place' when speaking to Wynne. Bethany even comes to the conclusion that mages should be free from the Chantry and the templars with a pro-mage Hawke, if she was sent to the Circle of Kirkwall.
[quote]Rojahar wrote...
Is the Circle absolute freedom? No. Does absolute freedom exist anywhere in Thedas? Not even for Kings (such as Alistair). I think it's worth considering that, while the Circle is by no means perfect (what is?), that it already IS a compromise, the best situation realistically possible in Thedas, and the negatives are possibly exaggerated due to the sources stating them (bloodmages and abominations), and those contradicting them (Bethany and Wynne). That's not to say that abuses don't happen, but abuses happen everywhere and in everything - yet all institutions in the world aren't torn down over cracks in the system. [/quote]
Considering that mages are tortured, raped, and made tranquil illegally in the Circle of Kirkwall, I'd argue that it's not exaggerated. Karl was made tranquil for writing letters. Ella was almost made tranquil and raped. Alain was raped by templars. Even Wynne never contests that it's an oppressive place or a prison to the mage protagonist, and Bethany ultimately comes to believe that her people should be free from the Chantry controlled Circles.
That said, I don't think templars are inherently evil - we see good templars with Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, Ser Otto, and Ser Thrask. However, I don't think the Chantry controlled Circles are the correct solution for mages.
[quote]Rojahar wrote...
As we've seen, when faced with the thread of death, abuse, rape, etc... many mages will resort to blood magic and demons. Commoners in Thedas are subjected to these threats CONSTANTLY, whereas it's rare in the Circle when compared to outside the Circle. A blood mage can manipulate and control people, en mass, and without any cues to signal it's been done. As magic is an invisible weapon with no rival, the Templars watch over them because there is no other alternative to protect against blood magic and possession. Is "oversight" and "regulation" itself so unreasonable? [/quote]
Many? We have two mages become abominations in Dragon Age 2 in front of Hawke, and both times contradicted the written lore because the mages were still conscious in the real world, which isn't the case if a mage enters the Fade (as the codex on Aeonar addresses). Grace's reasoning is so asinine that her motivation for revenge makes no sense so I don't see how 'stupid and insane' fit into a serious discussion, while we're left with Evelina.
As for blood magic, I don't think it's evil. Templars can
nullify ordinary magic. If it's a matter of life and death, why not use blood magic? In fact, it's addressed that some mages turn to blood magic because it's only the magic free of dealings with spirits or demons. "The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."
We also know that some Grey Wardens use blood magic to combat the darkspawn, and The Joining can be argued to be blood magic. Merrill never abuses her blood magic abilities.
[quote]Rojahar wrote...
If anyone has anything else to contribute, as far as information about the Circle, on either side of the fence, or simply wishes to discuss it: Feel free to do so. Do your views of the Circle lean more towards those like Anders or Grace, or do they lean more toward those like Bethany and Wynne? [/quote]
Wynne sees it as an issue of life and death, as she notes when she argues why she doesn't think the Cumberland meeting should advocate leaving the Chantry: if the Circles try to leave the Chantry, the mages will be killed. Bethany agrees that her people should be free from the Chantry and its templars. Grace is simply an insane and stupid mage antagonist. I'd argue that it's more of a case of whether one agrees with Finn (who is pro-Chantry controlled Circle) or Aldenon (who disagreed with the Chantry controlled Circles).
It's an issue that no one really agrees on because people view the institution differently. Pro-templars and pro-mage players will never reach a consensus on the issue.
Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 octobre 2011 - 03:17 .
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