208 réponses à ce sujet

[Sharn01]

You cant pretend to understand the nature of the demon or what it desired, perhaps it merely wished to toy with Merrill's emotions before trying to kill your party. If you choose not to tell Merrill to kill the demon after you defeat it the first time, it stabs Merrill and transforms back into a pride demon, supremely confident in its arrogance that it can win even when it could have kept up the ruse and returned to the settlement.

[Lazy Jer]

Well hold on for a sec. We do get two different statements from Marethari* during the final act. One was telling Merrill (again...eventually) about why she didn't want Merrill fixing the mirror and that she'd taken the demon in so that it could be killed. The other was shortly after the big battle when she said Merrill and company that everything was great and they could all go home. If you choose the option (note: I did) you can point out that Marethari* said that she would have to die to end the demon entirely.

So, can't we then assume that Marethari* had enough control to be able to tell Merrill what was truely up, and that the demon only managed to control Marethari* after she'd just gotten the tar beaten out of her by Hawke and friends?

*...and/or any and all demons Marethari may or may not be playing Brain Yatzy with.

Edit: On hindsight...my entire point was addressed in the post directly above mine...sorry 'bout that.  I still think it's plausible that Marethari could have had control, though.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 21 octobre 2011 - 11:06 .

[Xilizhra]

Marethari, if she truly was the demon, wouldn't say "Kill me, I took the demon inside my body".

Demoralizing Merrill. I suspect Audacity believed that Merrill wouldn't really do it, but underestimated either her or Hawke.

The demon wasn't helping Merrill out of the kidness of it's heart.

Clearly. But the Eluvian was likely a red herring, with Marethari as its true target.

[Lazy Jer]

Xilizhra wrote...

The demon wasn't helping Merrill out of the kidness of it's heart.

Clearly. But the Eluvian was likely a red herring, with Marethari as its true target.

I'm not sure I'd term that as "likely".  I'd loosely term it as a possibility, but I still think it's more likely that Marethari was telling the truth.  I think the demon did target Merrill because she was a lot more nieve then Marethari, and thus easier to manipulate.  I see no clues or behavior in Marethari that would indicate to me that she was being controlled by a demon.  So if the story was "She was controlled by a demon all along." then that would be really poor storytelling.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If the demon's plan was to demoralize Merrill then why did it try to convince her that she didn't need to kill her just a few moments later?

[TEWR]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

If the demon's plan was to demoralize Merrill then why did it try to convince her that she didn't need to kill her just a few moments later?

because they proved to be stronger than he anticipated and he said "Oh ********ers...."?

Granted you would think he wouldn't have wasted that opportunity to leave on stabbing Merrill and proving that he was still there, though he did say "Such delicious vanity!". Perhaps he got some sort of power boost from what happened? I know he apparently got stronger from every joke that Sarcastic Hawke uttered.

But then again he is a manifestation of Pride, and is probably subject to its downfalls as much as anyone else is since he takes it to the limit and then over. Demons and spirits focus on one vice or virtue and all that jazz.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 octobre 2011 - 02:22 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That just seems kind of silly. The only reason they knew to kill her anyway was because the demon specifically told them too, it strikes me as the far less likley of the two options. Besides Marathari's demeanor didn't seem especially mocking. If it really wanteed to demoralize Merrill I'd expect she'd use less encouraging words.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 22 octobre 2011 - 02:17 .

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Because you dismissed it despite it being part of the game, you can't what fits in your universe.

Because it makes no sense, as I explained when I addressed why it's irrational and clashes with the continuity of the narrative.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Your opinion is irrelevant to this discussion, it's why I told you to shut up about it.

You aren't a moderator, so you have no business trying to police this thread or telling anyone to shut up.

Dave of Canada wrote...

The demon wasn't trying to help Merrill out of the kindness of it's heart.

Considering how there was no basis for Marethari's opinion about the Eluvian being a means of escape for a demon, it's likely Audacity was trying to possess Marethari by making the Keeper think that was the plan.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 22 octobre 2011 - 03:07 .

[TEWR]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

There is no evidence whatsoever that the demon could've used the Eluvian to escape its prison. It didn't even need to, because the idiot Marethari decided to free the demon herself. For all her claims, she never explained exactly how the demon would've used the Eluvian.

Marethari sacrificed herself? BS. She released the demon from its prison in the first place and endangered everyone. 

There's no evidence that the demon couldn't have either.  In which case it's Marethari's word against Merrill's...or more accurately Merathari's word against nobody's since Merrill doesn't bother to question the truth of the Keeper's word when she eventually tells Merrill about the demon's connection to the Eluvian. 

Considering Morrigan said the Eluvians link to a place beyond the Fade and beyond Thedas and Audacity was sundered from the Fade just like Justice and sealed in a statue for centuries and could only be freed by a powerful spell (one Merrill makes clear to an aggressive Hawke she has no intention of ever performing) and the fact that the Tevinter Imperium used blood magic on the Eluvians and only managed to unlock their communication powers, I'd say that constitutes plenty of evidence that the demon couldn't have escaped through the Eluvian.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

lobi wrote...

Gaider would say that BM is just a GP mechanic because he wants the protagonists to a forced 'lawful' alignment.

Why do you think that? The Warden's status as a blood mage was going to be addressed by Wynne, but the scene bugged the Landsmeet so it was disabled. Hawke's status as a blood mage isn't acknowledged because the writers didn't know what specializations would be available, and they didn't bother to insert any lines addressing it because it would be too time-consuming. The only acknowledgement made of Hawke's blood magic is the cutscene where he uses it to kill the High Dragon, the same way Hawke's healing abilities as a Spirit Healer is only acknowledged with one, single line by Merrill.

Yea.... I call bull**** on that line of thought by the devs. They made a game centered around Mages and Templars in a city that had a thin Veil due to blood magic, which obviously means that the specializations Blood Mage and Templar would have to be available to the player.

So, there's really no rational explanation for why they didn't write anything for a blood mage Hawke that doesn't seem like it's just an excuse for "Well, ****" as Varric would say.

[Joy Divison]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Your opinion is irrelevant to this discussion, it's why I told you to shut up about it. Go make your fifth "I hate Hawke" thread and leave this one out of it.

You're normally a good poster but that's just not cool.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 22 octobre 2011 - 04:47 .

[Sons of Horus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

There is no evidence whatsoever that the demon could've used the Eluvian to escape its prison. It didn't even need to, because the idiot Marethari decided to free the demon herself. For all her claims, she never explained exactly how the demon would've used the Eluvian.

Marethari sacrificed herself? BS. She released the demon from its prison in the first place and endangered everyone. 

There's no evidence that the demon couldn't have either.  In which case it's Marethari's word against Merrill's...or more accurately Merathari's word against nobody's since Merrill doesn't bother to question the truth of the Keeper's word when she eventually tells Merrill about the demon's connection to the Eluvian. 

Considering Morrigan said the Eluvians link to a place beyond the Fade and beyond Thedas and Audacity was sundered from the Fade just like Justice and sealed in a statue for centuries and could only be freed by a powerful spell (one Merrill makes clear to an aggressive Hawke she has no intention of ever performing) and the fact that the Tevinter Imperium used blood magic on the Eluvians and only managed to unlock their communication powers, I'd say that constitutes plenty of evidence that the demon couldn't have escaped through the Eluvian.

A question, Could blood magic be what the elves used to make the Eluvian's ? If so they may have taught the Tevinter Imperium (or its nobles at least) on blood magic. Or that the nobles may have been elves themselves at some point in their blood line.

Perhaps the fall of Elvhenan/Arlathan is more complex then we are led to believe.

[TEWR]

Sons of Horus wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

There is no evidence whatsoever that the demon could've used the Eluvian to escape its prison. It didn't even need to, because the idiot Marethari decided to free the demon herself. For all her claims, she never explained exactly how the demon would've used the Eluvian.

Marethari sacrificed herself? BS. She released the demon from its prison in the first place and endangered everyone. 

There's no evidence that the demon couldn't have either.  In which case it's Marethari's word against Merrill's...or more accurately Merathari's word against nobody's since Merrill doesn't bother to question the truth of the Keeper's word when she eventually tells Merrill about the demon's connection to the Eluvian. 

Considering Morrigan said the Eluvians link to a place beyond the Fade and beyond Thedas and Audacity was sundered from the Fade just like Justice and sealed in a statue for centuries and could only be freed by a powerful spell (one Merrill makes clear to an aggressive Hawke she has no intention of ever performing) and the fact that the Tevinter Imperium used blood magic on the Eluvians and only managed to unlock their communication powers, I'd say that constitutes plenty of evidence that the demon couldn't have escaped through the Eluvian.

A question, Could blood magic be what the elves used to make the Eluvian's ? If so they may have taught the Tevinter Imperium (or its nobles at least) on blood magic. Or that the nobles may have been elves themselves at some point in their blood line.

Perhaps the fall of Elvhenan/Arlathan is more complex then we are led to believe.

I've been thinking similar things. Some sources in Thedosian history speculate that it was the Elves of Arlathan that originally taught the Magisters blood magic, and not demons (who remember the arcane since it's eternal) or Dumat.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

There is no evidence whatsoever that the demon could've used the Eluvian to escape its prison. It didn't even need to, because the idiot Marethari decided to free the demon herself. For all her claims, she never explained exactly how the demon would've used the Eluvian.

Marethari sacrificed herself? BS. She released the demon from its prison in the first place and endangered everyone. 

There's no evidence that the demon couldn't have either.  In which case it's Marethari's word against Merrill's...or more accurately Merathari's word against nobody's since Merrill doesn't bother to question the truth of the Keeper's word when she eventually tells Merrill about the demon's connection to the Eluvian. 

Considering Morrigan said the Eluvians link to a place beyond the Fade and beyond Thedas and Audacity was sundered from the Fade just like Justice and sealed in a statue for centuries and could only be freed by a powerful spell (one Merrill makes clear to an aggressive Hawke she has no intention of ever performing) and the fact that the Tevinter Imperium used blood magic on the Eluvians and only managed to unlock their communication powers, I'd say that constitutes plenty of evidence that the demon couldn't have escaped through the Eluvian.

That's only if you assume the Eluvians can link only to one place.

[Lazy Jer]

Okay, maybe I miss things by not reading all the codex entries (which untill recently was dang near impossible because I had a lousy TV and the game has tiny font), but what we are told in the game is that the demon could have manipulated Merrill into allowing it to escape through the Eluvian, and we aren't given any other clues that this is anything other then the truth in the acutal cinematics.

Compare this with the ending of Legacy. If you side with Larius he acts very differently at the end in the cinematic piece that closes the quest. So what I'm saying is that if the truth was that the demon was manipulating Marethari rather then Merrill, then we aren't given the slightest hint about this as audience members/game players. So if that's really was was going on then, in my opinion, that's just shoddy storytelling.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The demon obviously intended to kill Merril and Hawke barbecue it attacked them as as soon as it revealed itself. It could have done this much easier if Marethari was possessed without their knowledge.

[TheRevanchist]

I agree with the OP 100%. They don't have it nearly as bad as the vocal minority think. And it's very clear the majority of Templar's dont agree with Meredith or Alrik at the end of the game.

[Vit246]

kylecouch wrote...

I agree with the OP 100%. They don't have it nearly as bad as the vocal minority think. And it's very clear the majority of Templar's dont agree with Meredith or Alrik at the end of the game.

In the course of the 1000-year Chantry/Templar reign and Meredith's reign in particular, many mages are, amongst many things:
1. indoctrinated to hate themselves and believe that all mages and magic are evil and a curse for all their lives. (Keili)
2. never allowed almost any contact with family and the outside world.
3. guarded by armed templars indoctrinated to fear and hate and love-to-kill all things magic.
4. forced to go through a Harrowing where they must face a demon without any prior training / knowledge OR Tranquiled for refusing.
5. can be accused of blood magic and summarily Tranquiled / executed without proof, investigation, or trial. 
6. whipped for speaking to civilians. (the Tranquiled mage female who keeps walking back and forth in the Gallows)
7. Tranquiled for writing letters to the outside. (Karl)
8. Tranquiled for having a relationship with another mage. (the Tranquiled mage female who keeps walking back and forth in the Gallows)
9. Tranquiled for wanting to see family. (Ella)
10. Be Tranquiled as a Harrowed mage even though Chantry law itself forbids it.
11. raped, with the threat of Tranquility if they don't comply.
12. have a Rite of Anullment declared on them for the actions of an outsider apostate mage.

So yeah, I think those are very bad.

And if the majority of Templars don't agree with Meredith or Alrik by the end of the game, why did they all follow Meredith's order to perform the Rite of Anullment then?

Modifié par Vit246, 23 octobre 2011 - 03:36 .

[Beerfish]

Joy Divison wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Your opinion is irrelevant to this discussion, it's why I told you to shut up about it. Go make your fifth "I hate Hawke" thread and leave this one out of it.

You're normally a good poster but that's just not cool.

Have you been through some of these threads in the past?  If you haven't been in many of them you might not know why he would say that.  It's pretty appropo if you ask me.

[Beerfish]

Vit246 wrote...


In the course of the 1000-year Chantry/Templar reign and Meredith's reign in particular, many mages are, amongst many things:
1. indoctrinated to hate themselves and believe that all mages and magic are evil and a curse for all their lives. (Keili)

Keili that one ditzy one in lake calenhad circle?  you are ignoring a lot of other mages with this accusation.

2. never allowed almost any contact with family and the outside world.

Correct, because family cannot be trusted todo the proper thing when dealing with a mage, see Red cliffe and isolde.

3. guarded by armed templars indoctrinated to fear and hate and love-to-kill all things magic.

Pure and utter paranoid nonsense.

4. forced to go through a Harrowing where they must face a demon without any prior training / knowledge OR Tranquiled for refusing.

Eh?  Sorry in most cases they get prior training.  And in anycase that is the right thing to do.  You can etiher hack facing a demon or not.  Better to find out sooner than later.

5. can be accused of blood magic and summarily Tranquiled / executed without proof, investigation, or trial. 

Correct, kirkwall was a cluster you know what and i'm sure false accusations were made.  Zero evidence this was wide spread.

6. whipped for speaking to civilians. (the Tranquiled mage female who keeps walking back and forth in the Gallows)

Eh?  Never head about this, once again you are using the disfunction of kirkwall to sum up 100 years.

7. Tranquiled for writing letters to the outside. (Karl)

We have no idea what the letters were, again the kirwall situation is not 1000 years.

8. Tranquiled for having a relationship with another mage. (the Tranquiled mage female who keeps walking back and forth in the Gallows)

One instance in kirwall, again i don't recall this incident.

9. Tranquiled for wanting to see family. (Ella)

ACtually ella was murdered by Anders in more than one of my games.

10. Be Tranquiled as a Harrowed mage even though Chantry law itself forbids it.

Correct, bad seed templars were in kirkwall.

11. raped, with the threat of Tranquility if they don't comply.

See above.
12. have a Rite of Anullment declared on them for the actions of an outsider apostate mage.

Yeah, that oh and the fact that the city was teaming with blood mages, apostates, a leader who utterly refused to let the tempalrs search the tower.  Apostate mage or not the mages were totally out of control,. blowing up the chantry was the last straw.

So yeah, I think those are very bad.

Yup, all bad, almsot as bad as having many innocent lives snuffed out by one lone, child mage inj redcliffe and the coutry side around jkirwall teaming with blood mages, mage defectors etc.

And if the majority of Templars don't agree with Meredith or Alrik by the end of the game, why did they all follow Meredith's order to perform the Rite of Anullment then?

Probably because they just saw the chantry and their most holy person blown up by a mage.  Seein what Orsino was all about they probably made the right move.

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Your opinion is irrelevant to this discussion, it's why I told you to shut up about it. Go make your fifth "I hate Hawke" thread and leave this one out of it.

You're normally a good poster but that's just not cool.

Have you been through some of these threads in the past?  If you haven't been in many of them you might not know why he would say that.  It's pretty appropo if you ask me.

Considering Dave of Canada has no issue with providing his own opinion on other threads, it's not.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Beerfish wrote...

[quote]Vit246 wrote...

In the course of the 1000-year Chantry/Templar reign and Meredith's reign in particular, many mages are, amongst many things:
1. indoctrinated to hate themselves and believe that all mages and magic are evil and a curse for all their lives. (Keili) [/quote]

Keili that one ditzy one in lake calenhad circle?  you are ignoring a lot of other mages with this accusation. [/quote]

Greagoir brings up magic being a 'curse' at the beginning of the Magi Origin. Bethany refers to herself as 'cursed.' Meredith refers to mages as 'cursed.' It's clearly not simply Keili who views magic as a 'curse.' Anders make it clear what life in the Circle Tower is like, and the protagonist of the Magi Origin can refer to it as a 'prison' and an 'oppressive place.' The religious indocturination of the Chantry against mages is made clear in Origins and its sequel.

[quote]Beerfish wrote...

[quote]Vit246 wrote...

2. never allowed almost any contact with family and the outside world. [/quote]

Correct, because family cannot be trusted todo the proper thing when dealing with a mage, see Red cliffe and isolde. [/quote]

You mean like Hawke and Bethany, who were raised by apostate Malcolm?

[quote]Beerfish wrote...

[quote]Vit246 wrote...

3. guarded by armed templars indoctrinated to fear and hate and love-to-kill all things magic. [/quote]

Pure and utter paranoid nonsense. [/quote]

Cullen admits in the Magi Origin that some templars speak about killing mages with glee. Clearly, some templars fear and hate mages. The contrast to those templars are good templars like Ser Thrask and Ser Bryant, but we still see templars like Ser Alrik and Ser Kerras, as well as the templar who tortured a child hunter of the Dalish and Meredith's "death squad." Add to that how the Chantry preaches their view on mages, and abuse is likely to happen with the Chantry controlled Circles.

[quote]Beerfish wrote...

[quote]Vit246 wrote...

4. forced to go through a Harrowing where they must face a demon without any prior training / knowledge OR Tranquiled for refusing. [/quote]

Eh?  Sorry in most cases they get prior training.  And in anycase that is the right thing to do.  You can etiher hack facing a demon or not.  Better to find out sooner than later. [/quote]

You mean an apprentice can either risk their life and soul going into the unknown with no preperation or lose their humanity and become an emotionless husk.

[quote]Beerfish wrote...

[quote]Vit246 wrote...

5. can be accused of blood magic and summarily Tranquiled / executed without proof, investigation, or trial. [/quote]

Correct, kirkwall was a cluster you know what and i'm sure false accusations were made.  Zero evidence this was wide spread. [/quote]

The city-state was where the Knight-Commander became a dictator, and had a death squad that had no problem with murdering civilians. Aside from a good templar like Thrask, we saw the abuse with Ser Alrik, who  was making mages tranquil against Chantry law, and Hawke saw him threaten a child mage (Ella) with tranquility and rape for trying to see her mother (which is addressed in Hawke's dialogue to Alrik).

[quote]Beerfish wrote...

[quote]Vit246 wrote...

6. whipped for speaking to civilians. (the Tranquiled mage female who keeps walking back and forth in the Gallows)
[/quote]

Eh?  Never head about this, once again you are using the disfunction of kirkwall to sum up 100 years. [/quote]

The Kirkwall Circle mage says this. A screenshot of it was provided in some other threads by Rifneno.

[quote]Beerfish wrote...

[quote]Vit246 wrote...

7. Tranquiled for writing letters to the outside. (Karl) [/quote]

We have no idea what the letters were, again the kirwall situation is not 1000 years. [/quote]

It's against the law to tranquil a Harrowed mage except for extraordinary circumstances, and writing letters doesn't fit the bill, especially when running away several times from the Circle Tower isn't a sufficient reason.

[quote]Beerfish wrote...

[quote]Vit246 wrote...

8. Tranquiled for having a relationship with another mage. (the Tranquiled mage female who keeps walking back and forth in the Gallows) [/quote]

One instance in kirwall, again i don't recall this incident. [/quote]

The Circle mage was made tranquil by Ser Alrik, so only he could "command" her now.

[quote]Beerfish wrote...

[quote]Vit246 wrote...

9. Tranquiled for wanting to see family. (Ella) [/quote]

ACtually ella was murdered by Anders in more than one of my games. [/quote]

That doesn't change that Ella was threatened with tranquility and rape by Ser Alrik for wanting to see her family to let them know what happened to her.

[quote]Beerfish wrote...

[quote]Vit246 wrote...

10. Be Tranquiled as a Harrowed mage even though Chantry law itself forbids it. [/quote]

Correct, bad seed templars were in kirkwall. [/quote]

From Ser Kerras to Knight-Commander Meredith.

[quote]Beerfish wrote...

[quote]Vit246 wrote...

11. raped, with the threat of Tranquility if they don't comply. [/quote]

See above. [/quote]

Which is the result of the Chantry controlled Circles.

[quote]Beerfish wrote...

[quote]Vit246 wrote...

12. have a Rite of Anullment declared on them for the actions of an outsider apostate mage. [/quote]

Yeah, that oh and the fact that the city was teaming with blood mages, apostates, a leader who utterly refused to let the tempalrs search the tower.  Apostate mage or not the mages were totally out of control,. blowing up the chantry was the last straw. [/quote]

You mean the city where mages were being raped and tortured, where mages were being made tranquil against the law? The same city where the Knight-Commander became a dictator and had a death squad murdering people, even civilians? Where Meredith wanted to kill hundreds of men, women, and children for an act that they weren't responsible for? Meredith was out of control - to such an extent that templars and mages united in an effort to oust her from her role as dictator.

[quote]Beerfish wrote...

[quote]Vit246 wrote...

So yeah, I think those are very bad. [/quote]

Yup, all bad, almsot as bad as having many innocent lives snuffed out by one lone, child mage inj redcliffe and the coutry side around jkirwall teaming with blood mages, mage defectors etc. [/quote]

Or one Knight-Commander in Kirkwall who ruled as a dictator and had a death squad.

[quote]Beerfish wrote...

[quote]Vit246 wrote...

And if the majority of Templars don't agree with Meredith or Alrik by the end of the game, why did they all follow Meredith's order to perform the Rite of Anullment then? [/quote]

Probably because they just saw the chantry and their most holy person blown up by a mage.  Seein what Orsino was all about they probably made the right move. [/quote]

Murdering hundreds of people for an act they weren't responsible for isn't the "right move." I doubt Thrask, or the templars who allied with him and worked with mages, would have followed Meredith's orders.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 23 octobre 2011 - 05:47 .

[Zanallen]

Ewwwwww......Pyramids.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

One could make a case that Circles of Magi aren't the best solution, but using the abuses of the Kirkwall Circle to make the argument that they are all as bad doesn't follow. The Templars in Kirkwall became corrupt because their city was an unusual situation where the Knight Commander became too powerful for her role. Alain mentions straight away that the Circle isn't as bad in Starkhaven.

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

One could make a case that Circles of Magi aren't the best solution, but using the abuses of the Kirkwall Circle to make the argument that they are all as bad doesn't follow.

It's the dichotomy between people who agree with the Chantry controlled Circles and who disagree with them. It's no different in Thedas, where the mage protagonist can address to Wynne that the Circle is a 'prison' and an 'oppressive place.' All the Circles of Magi end up emancipating themselves from the Chantry and its templars, so it seems clearly evident that a sufficient number of mages weren't content with this system.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Templars in Kirkwall became corrupt because their city was an unusual situation where the Knight Commander became too powerful for her role. Alain mentions straight away that the Circle isn't as bad in Starkhaven.

Alain doesn't seem to be saying that the Circle of Starkhaven isn't a bad place, but that Kirkwall is worse. Given how Decimus and Grace came from Starkhaven, and it's inferred from Gascard's note that Quentin may have come from there as well, it's clearly not ideal for one's mental health.