208 réponses à ce sujet

[TheRevanchist]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

One could make a case that Circles of Magi aren't the best solution, but using the abuses of the Kirkwall Circle to make the argument that they are all as bad doesn't follow.

It's the dichotomy between people who agree with the Chantry controlled Circles and who disagree with them. It's no different in Thedas, where the mage protagonist can address to Wynne that the Circle is a 'prison' and an 'oppressive place.' All the Circles of Magi end up emancipating themselves from the Chantry and its templars, so it seems clearly evident that a sufficient number of mages weren't content with this system.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Templars in Kirkwall became corrupt because their city was an unusual situation where the Knight Commander became too powerful for her role. Alain mentions straight away that the Circle isn't as bad in Starkhaven.

Alain doesn't seem to be saying that the Circle of Starkhaven isn't a bad place, but that Kirkwall is worse. Given how Decimus and Grace came from Starkhaven, and it's inferred from Gascard's note that Quentin may have come from there as well, it's clearly not ideal for one's mental health.

No...that is a none factor...Ander's ensured mages had no choice, even the Mages who LIKED the Circle have to fight or die. he forced rebellion on EVERY mage...even mages that didnt want to rebel...and so have the Templar's. Btw...the new book explains these things. It has nothing to do with hateing the system.

The other Circles are like-wise, much better then Kirkwall's...as like many have said...Meredeth is bat s*** crazy. And the majority of the Templars, includeing Cullen of all people, abandon her when they realize shes gone too far. Cullen obviously never intended to Anuul the entire circle as he protests Meredeth when they find Mages who were running from the Blood Mages, he insists that they be spared since it is a Templar's duty to defend mages. 

Modifié par kylecouch, 23 octobre 2011 - 07:07 .

[DKJaigen]

The new book is not out yet so wtf are you talking about

[Augustei]

Why do people say Greagoir said "Magic is a curse" and cut it off there? They act as if what he said was a bad thing.. He said its both a gift and a curse, because it attracts demons.. Having the attention of those who want to possess you seems like a curse to me... But as he stated its a gift as well.

[TEWR]

I'd call it more of a burden. I think if demonology -- the study of demons, not the act of summoning them though that may be required sometimes -- was allowed like Wilhelm was doing, demons wouldn't be as big of a threat to a mage.

[PantheraOnca]

Alternatively, if all children were taught how to resist demonic influence, then any child that happens to be a mage would already be prepared, at least more than they currently are, to deal with it. It would be relatively easy to include as a chantry service.

[TEWR]

Indeed. The Circles do need to start teaching children about demons and how to resist them more, and there should also be classes to teach the mage children how to deal with grief and traumatizing experiences since a demon would use that to its advantage by promising something it can't actually grant.

Same deal with necromancy. Raising the dead wouldn't bring anyone's soul back.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 octobre 2011 - 05:27 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

And you know that there aren't already such classes how?

[TEWR]

Quentin. If there were a class dealing with grief, that man -- who had to have been close to being over the edge already prior to his wife's death -- would never have gone to such drastic measures since he would've known that nothing can bring back the life of someone who has passed on.

edit: yes I know that he used blood magic, but I'm expanding on my post above yours to include demons and necromancy blood magic

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 octobre 2011 - 05:27 .

[naledgeborn]

Yeah, Quentin supposedly discovered "the secrets of necromancy". I think it's safe to say that it isn't part of standard Circle Mage curriculum.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Actually if he had truly unlocked the secrets of necromancy, there would be a way to bring his wife back, and bind her spirit within the body he had constructed.

But even then, Quintin is not proof of mages not being taught to cope with loss and other trauma. He is just proof that whenever a mage succumbs to such trauma, bad things happen.
You can give a man the best education in the world that money can buy, but if you push him past his breaking point, it will all have been for naught.

[TEWR]

we don't even know if Thedas' version of necromancy would allow for him to grab his wife's soul. Granted it's entirely likely that could be the case, but we don't know. We don't even know what happens to a person's soul upon death, do we?

@naledgeborn: I'm not saying that blood magic and necromancy has to be a part of the mage curriculum. Just that a mage should be taught that should something traumatizing happen, no amount of demon consorting and blood magic would be able to fix that.

Quentin's proof enough of that.

[naledgeborn]

Sure. I think it was in the Witch Hunt DLC. In the Circle library there was a children's picture book with a young mage girl all happy like holding hands with a demon during her Harrowing. That's one hell of an education if you ask me. Yes mages are dangerous, but the Circle and Templars are full of fail themselves.

[naledgeborn]

@ TEWR I agree and disagree. The more you're prepared to deal with demons and blood magic the better you'll be at repelling/combating them. 

Locking it away as is if it doesn't exist is just as dangerous as willingly accepting a demon's deal (probably more).

[Everwarden]

Dave of Canada wrote...
We understand, you hate how inactive Hawke is and want to abuse your plot armor. Please shut up about it for one thread.

It's a completely valid point. Hawke had just become fabulously wealthy. He could -easily- kill two Templars, take the money and his family and run before the Chantry knows what just happened.

The Templars have none of Bethany's blood, so tracking them wouldn't work. Nothing at all stops Hawke from heading straight to Antiva and hiring Antivan Crows or mercenary groups to just kill any Templars who get too close to their mansion. 

Oh, right, the plot stops them. The ridiculously stupid plot. If Hawke did something reasonable within the context of the situation, then the plot wouldn't work. The terrible, terrible plot that assumes Hawke does nothing unless a quest arrow leads him to do it. 

[PantheraOnca]

there are places with no quest arrow leading to them!?!?!?!?!!!


WHAT IS THIS MADNESSSSSSSS?!?@@??@!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[TheRevanchist]

DKJaigen wrote...

The new book is not out yet so wtf are you talking about

Gaider has already stated thats what the new book covers, the true reasoning behind the Templar and Circle breaking away from the Chantry.

[TheRevanchist]

Also...Cullen agree's that better education is needed. That mages need to understand WHY their methods are used, and to better prepare them for dangers they face as a mage.

[LobselVith8]

kylecouch wrote...

Anders' ensured mages had no choice, even the mages who LIKED the Circle have to fight or die.

No one forced Meredith to condemn an entire population of people who were innocent of Anders' actions, and no one forced every Circle of Magi to emancipate themselves from the Chantry when they heard the story of Hawke and, as Varric notes, saw that the templars could be defied.

As for Cullen, he specifically goes against Meredith when Hawke's life is in danger, even a pro-mage Hawke who is killing his way through every templar in his path.

[KJandrew]

Everwarden wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
We understand, you hate how inactive Hawke is and want to abuse your plot armor. Please shut up about it for one thread.

It's a completely valid point. Hawke had just become fabulously wealthy. He could -easily- kill two Templars, take the money and his family and run before the Chantry knows what just happened.

The Templars have none of Bethany's blood, so tracking them wouldn't work. Nothing at all stops Hawke from heading straight to Antiva and hiring Antivan Crows or mercenary groups to just kill any Templars who get too close to their mansion. 

Bethany would stop it. She tells you that she wants to go to the circle. So what would killing the two templars solve? You'd have an angry Bethany who could just go and turn herself in.  

[LobselVith8]

KJandrew wrote...

Bethany would stop it.

Bethany seems resigned to it, which doesn't mean that Hawke should stand idly by while his little sister is being taken to a place where he knows Circle mages are being illegally made tranquil. Why risk his sister's humanity when he can attempt to stop Cullen and the single other templar in the room?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Bethany is old enough to make her own decisions. Hawke can't force her not to go there.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 23 octobre 2011 - 08:09 .

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Bethany is old enough to make her own decisions.

And Hawke is powerful enough to try to protect his sister from the corrupt system in Kirkwall where mages are being abused and getting her humanity stripped from them. I'd rather protect my little sister than risk her getting raped like Alain, or losing her humanity like Karl.

[EmperorSahlertz]

So you'd kill the Templars sent to collect her, which would only make her a top priority target for the Templars, all in the name of protecting her? That is just brilliant.... I bet Bethany would be extatic.

[TheRevanchist]

LobselVith8 wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Anders' ensured mages had no choice, even the mages who LIKED the Circle have to fight or die.

No one forced Meredith to condemn an entire population of people who were innocent of Anders' actions, and no one forced every Circle of Magi to emancipate themselves from the Chantry when they heard the story of Hawke and, as Varric notes, saw that the templars could be defied.

As for Cullen, he specifically goes against Meredith when Hawke's life is in danger, even a pro-mage Hawke who is killing his way through every templar in his path.

Again...all the Circles freeing themselves have nothing to do with their "oh so horrible" treatment. It will be explained in the new book. And yes...Meredeth is right...the people would want blood for the death of the Grand Cleric. WHO actually did it wouldn't really matter to the common people, who for the most part hate and distrust magic anyway. Meredeth KNEW the Circle didn't do it, and she KNEW they shouldn't have to pay for it. But the common people would demand it as they would jump to conclusions. And like the real world...it is hard to convince the masses of the truth when they already believe a certin thing.

it is easy for Mage sympathizers to point and cast blame. But the realites of the situation are simply not nearly as black and white as you want it to be. Meredeth wasn't TOTALY insane until the very end. In fact before Ander's blows the Cathedral sky high you almost convince Meredeth to see reason, of course you'll probably deny this and scream "DEATH SQUAD N*** PSYCHO B****!!!!" But the reality is simpley more complex then that. There are political consequences that Meredeth has to consider, Also what the Divine and the Chantry might think. in case you all forgot...Meredeth REJECTS the "Tranquil Solution" proposed by Alrik. Meaning she is not totaly unreasonable. Orsino simpley made the Circle more suspisious by refuseing to let Meredeth search the rooms. People don't normally do that unless they have something to hide (which he did). If you have nothing to hide then you have no reason to not let them search, as finding nothing would only strengthen your defense that the Circle is innocent.

[Xilizhra]

Luckily, this is no longer relevant. Meredith has been rightfully killed and the revolution has begun, and the templars have been unable to stop it. And I very much doubt that you who support tyranny will be able to win.