208 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Again...all the Circles freeing themselves have nothing to do with their "oh so horrible" treatment. It will be explained in the new book. And yes...Meredeth is right...the people would want blood for the death of the Grand Cleric. WHO actually did it wouldn't really matter to the common people, who for the most part hate and distrust magic anyway. Meredeth KNEW the Circle didn't do it, and she KNEW they shouldn't have to pay for it. But the common people would demand it as they would jump to conclusions. And like the real world...it is hard to convince the masses of the truth when they already believe a certin thing.

Meredith was wrong.

1) The people aren't bloodthirsty savages. They will want justice done to the appropriate party, especially considering much of Kirkwall's mages have relatives in Kirkwall itself. Those relatives actually don't hate magic. The nobility have children in the Circle and even say that the reason why people take risks is to protect an ideal, and the common folk have relatives in the Circle. For the first time that Cullen's ever seen, people in Kirkwall were helping the mages and not the Templars. That says more about the people of Kirkwall than anything Meredith says, because it shows that they care for the mages.

2) The mob doesn't and shouldn't dictate Meredith's actions. She should dictate their actions. Awakening showed us that giving into a mob for any reason only makes them bolder.

it is easy for Mage sympathizers to point and cast blame. But the realites of the situation are simply not nearly as black and white as you want it to be. Meredeth wasn't TOTALY insane until the very end. In fact before Ander's blows the Cathedral sky high you almost convince Meredeth to see reason, of course you'll probably deny this and scream "DEATH SQUAD N*** PSYCHO B****!!!!" But the reality is simpley more complex then that. There are political consequences that Meredeth has to consider, Also what the Divine and the Chantry might think. in case you all forgot...Meredeth REJECTS the "Tranquil Solution" proposed by Alrik. Meaning she is not totaly unreasonable. Orsino simpley made the Circle more suspisious by refuseing to let Meredeth search the rooms. People don't normally do that unless they have something to hide (which he did). If you have nothing to hide then you have no reason to not let them search, as finding nothing would only strengthen your defense that the Circle is innocent.

Meredith was totally insane.

You can clearly see the lyrium idol sword on her back in the Act 3 opening, and the lyrium idol managed to begin whatever foul magic it held on Bartrand right away (since it glowed). Not only that, she accuses a Hawke that says Orsino was innocent of any scheming in the rebellion of being a blood mage thrall. That sound sane to you?

You ever hear of probable cause? Meredith had no grounds to search the dormitories of the mages. She just randomly blurted out "I'm gonna search the Tower top to bottom!" but gave no reason why she wanted to do that. And don't tell me the rebellion that happened is probable cause. That was put down (due to plot stupidity) and was no longer an issue.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 octobre 2011 - 09:30 .

[naledgeborn]

Oh yeah, and Orsino was a BLOODMAGE! Meredith had all the reason in the world to suspect and want to search the Gallows. However it was her own damn fault for allowing someone as susceptible to corruption and inept as Orsino in the position of First Enchanter.

For all her zeal she's a pretty worthless Knight Commander. Gregoire or even Cullen wouldn't have let things get to point it did. In the end both parties were at fault. Anders blowing up the Chantry just pushed Meredith to the point of laying down the straw that broke the camel's back.

[TEWR]

naledgeborn wrote...

Oh yeah, and Orsino was a BLOODMAGE! Meredith had all the reason in the world to suspect and want to search the Gallows. However it was her own damn fault for allowing someone as susceptible to corruption and inept as Orsino in the position of First Enchanter.

For all her zeal she's a pretty worthless Knight Commander. Gregoire or even Cullen wouldn't have let things get to point it did. In the end both parties were at fault. Anders blowing up the Chantry just pushed Meredith to the point of laying down the straw that broke the camel's back.

Orsino makes it clear that he was never a practicing blood mage prior to that point, and he would have no reason to lie in the endgame since it didn't matter to him anymore. At most, he was one who studied the theoretical concepts of blood magic, which is no different than Adralla from what we know.

[LobselVith8]

Orsino's actions don't justify the murder of hundreds of men, women, and children for an act that Anders alone committed. Meredith makes it clear that she is ordering the execution of the mages in the Kirkwall Circle solely to appease a hypothetical mob that will "demand blood." The actions of Orsino and Anders don't warrant an act of genocide against an entire population who are not responsible for their actions, regardless of the view you hold about these two men.

[naledgeborn]

He was making an effort to turn a blind eye in a city where Templar fervor is notorious. He's not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, that's for sure.

What was the first thing Irving did when he suspected Jowan of practicing blood magic? He stashed the books in his office for safe keeping. He didn't drop off forbidden material for serial killers to experiment on. Orsino just sucks overall and gives all mages a bad name. The title of First Enchanter comes with responsibilities that Orsino just wasn't manning up to.

[TEWR]

naledgeborn wrote...

He was making an effort to turn a blind eye in a city where Templar fervor is notorious. He's not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, that's for sure.

What was the first thing Irving did when he suspected Jowan of practicing blood magic? He stashed the books in his office for safe keeping. He didn't drop off forbidden material for serial killers to experiment on. Orsino just sucks overall and gives all mages a bad name. The title of First Enchanter comes with responsibilities that Orsino just wasn't manning up to.

Irving was an idiot. He wasn't able to realize that the person who was able to pinpoint who was a blood mage was a blood mage himself! Uldred was the reason much of the blood mages were caught, and I have no doubt in my mind that it was Uldred who set them up to begin with so he could gain more safety within the Circle.

[naledgeborn]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Orsino's actions don't justify the murder of hundreds of men, women, and children for an act that Anders alone committed. Meredith makes it clear that she is ordering the execution of the mages in the Kirkwall Circle solely to appease a hypothetical mob that will "demand blood." The actions of Orsino and Anders don't warrant an act of genocide against an entire population who are not responsible for their actions, regardless of the view you hold about these two men.

I agree. But one has to be objective. The Circle and Templars were just as culpable. Meredith was crazy, but before that she sucked as much as Orsino. Why would her own Templars dissent? I'm just surprised it took them 7 years to do so. I think the order needed to clean house in Kirkwall. Station some new blood there to ease order's grip. But what do I know?

To quote Varric " I think I've had enough of Mages and Templars."

Modifié par naledgeborn, 23 octobre 2011 - 09:53 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So you'd kill the templars sent to collect her, which would make her a top priority target for the Templars, all in the name of protecting her?

Rather than abandoning her to a life of captivity where mages are getting tortured, raped, and made tranquil against Chantry law, you mean?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is just brilliant... I bet Bethany would be extatic

I would prefer Bethany's anger to her being made tranquil, which was a possibility with Ser Alrik around. Her life - and her humanity - should mean more to her brother, after all.

[naledgeborn]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

He was making an effort to turn a blind eye in a city where Templar fervor is notorious. He's not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, that's for sure.

What was the first thing Irving did when he suspected Jowan of practicing blood magic? He stashed the books in his office for safe keeping. He didn't drop off forbidden material for serial killers to experiment on. Orsino just sucks overall and gives all mages a bad name. The title of First Enchanter comes with responsibilities that Orsino just wasn't manning up to.

Irving was an idiot. He wasn't able to realize that the person who was able to pinpoint who was a blood mage was a blood mage himself! Uldred was the reason much of the blood mages were caught, and I have no doubt in my mind that it was Uldred who set them up to begin with so he could gain more safety within the Circle.

But that was Uldred's part in Loghain's conspiracy. That is known. Those were catalysts from the outside that Irving had no control over. And the **** hit the fan only after Loghain's coup.

[Zanallen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Meredith was wrong.

1) The people aren't bloodthirsty savages. They will want justice done to the appropriate party, especially considering much of Kirkwall's mages have relatives in Kirkwall itself. Those relatives actually don't hate magic. The nobility have children in the Circle and even say that the reason why people take risks is to protect an ideal, and the common folk have relatives in the Circle. For the first time that Cullen's ever seen, people in Kirkwall were helping the mages and not the Templars. That says more about the people of Kirkwall than anything Meredith says, because it shows that they care for the mages.

Yeah, no. You have no idea how the mob would have reacted. Hell, have you seen the mobs and riots that occur after freakin' sporting events? This is a man who blew up a church, the symbol of faith for pretty much everyone in Kirkwall, and killed all of the people inside. Anders effectively declared war on the major faith of Thedas. Do you really think the mob wouldn't have wanted blood? Give them Anders, sure, but I don't think that would have been enough. Do you think the mob wouldn't believe that Orsino and the rest of the mages weren't somehow involved? Anders blew up the chantry to protest the treatment of mages, after all. He did it for the mages. Of course the rest of them were involved somehow. Damn all evidence to the contrary. That's how mobs work. They aren't composed of rational, thinking individuals. Mobs are a mass of seething emotions.

[LobselVith8]

I don't think the divide between agreeing with the Chantry controlled Circles and disagreeing with them will ever be bridged. Everyone has their own view on the issue. I think the dilemma that had transpired in Kirkwall can be blamed on many parties, but Meredith crossed the line so far that both templars and mages united in an attempt to oust her. I wonder how different things would have gone if Hawke allied with Thrask, rather than the Plot Dictates leading to Thrask's asinine demise.

[TEWR]

Zanallen wrote...


Yeah, no. You have no idea how the mob would have reacted. Hell, have you seen the mobs and riots that occur after freakin' sporting events? This is a man who blew up a church, the symbol of faith for pretty much everyone in Kirkwall, and killed all of the people inside. Anders effectively declared war on the major faith of Thedas. Do you really think the mob wouldn't have wanted blood? Give them Anders, sure, but I don't think that would have been enough. Do you think the mob wouldn't believe that Orsino and the rest of the mages weren't somehow involved? Anders blew up the chantry to protest the treatment of mages, after all. He did it for the mages. Of course the rest of them were involved somehow. Damn all evidence to the contrary. That's how mobs work. They aren't composed of rational, thinking individuals. Mobs are a mass of seething emotions.

Sports events are hardly analogous to this.

I happen to know that the people of Kirkwall were helping the mages for a long time and the Templars were going so far as to murder people for giving room and board to mage relatives (see the codex on the Mage Underground).

I happen to know that the nobility say that the mages aren't all that bad and say that they have relatives within the Circle.

I also know that support for the Templars was going downhill fast because of what they were doing to the populus because it was "their sacred duty".

There's no way in hell the people would've sided with the Templars when the Templars have been acting as cruel blackguards for years now and the people of Kirkwall haven't aided them at all. Anders even admits that it was his own doing, so any person who actually believed other mages were a part of it are idiots. All it would take is for Meredith to tell Anders to tell the populus that he was the only mage responsible, and the mob would never have come to exist.

Why do you think we don't see a mob on the way to the Gallows? Because it doesn't exist. Even if it would exist, the Templars and the City Guard are the army of Kirkwall and would be able to put down a rebellion easily. Should innocent mages die because of a mob mentality, or should the mob be put down like it's supposed to when they won't see reason? The latter is the answer no matter how you slice it

That Anders did it for the mages does in no way implicate the mages of Kirkwall's Circle -- or anywhere else for that matter -- as being a part of the plot to blow up the Chantry.

But that was Uldred's part in Loghain's conspiracy. That is known. Those were catalysts from the outside that Irving had no control over. And the **** hit the fan only after Loghain's coup.

Um.... what are you talking about?

I'm talking about this:


I followed another apprentice through supposed secret maneuvers today, and exposed her tendency towards blood magic. The environment of the tower is such that certain modes of thought are encouraged, both for good and ill. The students think we toy with them. The truth is far more intricate and directed. Deviant traits must be exposed early, or the whole of the Circle suffers.

Uldred has been very helpful in identifying the markers to look for. His skills at misdirection are admirable. I daresay that the apprentices would be shocked at his ability to manipulate them. I must organize a retreat such that the other enchanters can benefit from his skills.

--Excerpt from the journal of First Enchanter Irving

[Zanallen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sports events are hardly analogous to this.

It is an example. If normal people can riot after a sporting event, even when their team wins, causing massive amounts of damage and/or inflicting harm on other people, how would they react when the symbol of their faith is blown up?

I happen to know that the people of Kirkwall were helping the mages for a long time and the Templars were going so far as to murder people for giving room and board to mage relatives (see the codex on the Mage Underground).

All the people of Kirkwall? How many people comprise this mage underground? How many people are doing it just because they feel sorry for mages who they perceive as innocents? What happens when those people find out that a mage commited what is arguably a terrorist act?

I happen to know that the nobility say that the mages aren't all that bad and say that they have relatives within the Circle.

Your point? The nobles aren't going to be part of the mob. Mobs are generally comprised of the common people.

I also know that support for the Templars was going downhill fast because of what they were doing to the populus because it was "their sacred duty".

There's no way in hell the people would've sided with the Templars when the Templars have been acting as cruel blackguards for years now and the people of Kirkwall haven't aided them at all. Anders even admits that it was his own doing, so any person who actually believed other mages were a part of it are idiots. All it would take is for Meredith to tell Anders to tell the populus that he was the only mage responsible, and the mob would never have come to exist.

Once again, the truth doesn't matter. Mobs don't function on rational thought. Blood mages are known to be able to manipulate others. All it would take would be a few angry people to rally the others, preying on their fears and incite the mob.

Why do you think we don't see a mob on the way to the Gallows? Because it doesn't exist. Even if it would exist, the Templars and the City Guard are the army of Kirkwall and would be able to put down a rebellion easily. Should innocent mages die because of a mob mentality, or should the mob be put down like it's supposed to when they won't see reason? The latter is the answer no matter how you slice it.

Why don't we see even a tenth of the people who are supposed to be in Kirkwall? And what makes you think the templars and city guard would be able to put down a mob easily? Hell, what makes you think some of the templars and the guards wouldn't agree with the mob? Should the innocent mages of the circle tower have been killed because of Uldred's scheming? It is how the right of annulment works. You kill all the mages to make sure the bad ones don't escape. If you don't like it, side with the mages. Same with in DAO.

That Anders did it for the mages does in no way implicate the mages of Kirkwall's Circle -- or anywhere else for that matter -- as being a part of the plot to blow up the Chantry.

Mobs don't care about truth.

[Xilizhra]

All the people of Kirkwall? How many people comprise this mage underground? How many people are doing it just because they feel sorry for mages who they perceive as innocents? What happens when those people find out that a mage commited what is arguably a terrorist act?

Actually, that's irrelevant. If a mob is going to attack innocent mages, it's the templars' duty to protect them. Meredith's interpretation is utterly ass-backwards.

[Zanallen]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, that's irrelevant. If a mob is going to attack innocent mages, it's the templars' duty to protect them. Meredith's interpretation is utterly ass-backwards.

The mob doesn't need to attack the mages. The mob can wreck the city, demanding that the mages be "brought to justice" and the templars wouldn't legally be able to do a damn thing. The city guard would be required to stop them, but after the qunari thing and the fact that some guards would no doubt sympathize with the mob, I doubt they would be able to properly handle it.

[Xilizhra]

Zanallen wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, that's irrelevant. If a mob is going to attack innocent mages, it's the templars' duty to protect them. Meredith's interpretation is utterly ass-backwards.

The mob doesn't need to attack the mages. The mob can wreck the city, demanding that the mages be "brought to justice" and the templars wouldn't legally be able to do a damn thing. The city guard would be required to stop them, but after the qunari thing and the fact that some guards would no doubt sympathize with the mob, I doubt they would be able to properly handle it.

Meredith is effectively Kirkwall's dictator. She can do whatever the hell she feels like, legally, especially with Elthina dead. And I do believe that the guard, being as loyal as Aveline as they are (not a single guard followed Jeven, remember?) would be able to handle things... especially with Hawke as the ace in the hole. You can't tell me Hawke hasn't experienced a lot of mass combat and come out on top.

[PantheraOnca]

mage underground sympathizer starts rumor that meredith caused the explosion to get everyone riled up so she could FINALLY annul the mages. Mob doesn't form due to no longer knowing who to blame.

[TEWR]

All the people of Kirkwall? How many people comprise this mage underground? How many people are doing it just because they feel sorry for mages who they perceive as innocents? What happens when those people find out that a mage commited what is arguably a terrorist act?

What happens when they find out that anyone can make the bomb that blew up the Chantry, since it's just a recipe of ingredients? What happens when they find out that mages aren't the only ones that can cause destruction on a large scale?

Mages no longer become the only people who can cause destruction. Now anyone can decimate a city easily.

Why don't we see even a tenth of the people who are supposed to be in Kirkwall? And what makes you think the templars and city guard would be able to put down a mob easily?

By your own words, a mob is formed from common people. Commoners don't exactly have access to fine weapons and armor. The City Guard and Templars do on the other hand, and they have experience fighting.

Hell, what makes you think some of the templars and the guards wouldn't agree with the mob?

Because it's the Templars' duty to protect the mages as well as the populus, so they would be required to protect the mages from an act they had nothing to do with.

The City Guard also follows Aveline's lead immensely if she's married to Donnic, and she makes sure Meredith will receive no help from her Guardsmen. She also makes sure the people are kept under control.

Again, no mob ever forms.

Should the innocent mages of the circle tower have been killed because of Uldred's scheming? It is how the right of annulment works. You kill all the mages to make sure the bad ones don't escape. If you don't like it, side with the mages. Same with in DAO.

Uldred's plot is a far different scenario, because there Kinloch Hold was literally swarmed with Abominations.

The RoA has to have a justifiable reason for being called for. Kirkwall's RoA didn't.

Mobs don't care about truth.

which is why authorities should never give in to their demands and instead try and get the mob to disperse, even if violence is necessary.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 octobre 2011 - 10:38 .

[Zanallen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

What happens when they find out that anyone can make the bomb that blew up the Chantry, since it's just a recipe of ingredients? What happens when they find out that mages aren't the only ones that can cause destruction on a large scale?

Mages no longer become the only people who can cause destruction. Now anyone can decimate a city easily.

Mages were never the only ones who can cause destruction. Bombs have existed for quite some time. Even magical bombs like the lyrium dust bombs in Awakening. Mages still hold the edge as they don't require weaponry or ingredients to cause destruction. Anders used a bomb, sure, but he didn't need one. Connor pretty much decimated Redcliffe and he was just one abomination.

By your own words, a mob is formed from common people. Commoners don't exactly have access to fine weapons and armor. The City Guard and Templars do on the other hand, and they have experience fighting.

The common people have been shown to be armed well enough throughout DA2. All those thieves and mercenaries with their arms and armor. Nothing stopping the mob from raiding a shop either and equipping themselves from the weapons there.

Because it's the Templars' duty to protect the mages as well as the populus, so they would be required to protect the mages from an act they had nothing to do with.

These same templars that the mage sympathizers would have us believe are all rapists and crazed zealots raised and trained to hate all magic? Can't have it both ways. Either the templars do their duty and protect mages or they don't care and go out of their way to hurt mages.

The City Guard also follows Aveline's lead immensely if she's married to Donnic, and she makes sure Meredith will receive no help from her Guardsmen. She also makes sure the people are kept under control.

Again, no mob ever forms.

You have no proof that no mob forms. If there was no mob and Meredith was lying, wouldn't the game allow you to confirm that? All it would take is one line of dialogue. And the city guard is weakened by the series of events in Kirkwall. Plus, they might be loyal to Aveline, but would that loyalty trump their faith?

Uldred's plot is a far different scenario, because there Kinloch Hold was literally swarmed with Abominations.

The RoA has to have a justifiable reason for being called for. Kirkwall's RoA didn't.

And Anders took away the only thing stopping Meredith from calling the RoA.

which is why authorities should never give in to their demands and instead try and get the mob to disperse, even if violence is necessary.

Perhaps, but sometimes you have no choice. Especially when the mob wants you to do something that you want to do anyway.

[LobselVith8]

Hans54321 wrote...

Another example of a known mage working for the nobility living outside the Circle: Wilhelm.

Wilhelm also had children with his wife, so he clearly wasn't part of the Circle anymore since Gaider addressed that Circle mages have their children taken from them by the Chantry (which only Grey Warden mages are exempt from, since they aren't under the auspices of the Chantry). Given Wilhelm being a war hero for the Rebel Queen Moira, and her son Prince Maric the Savior, it's likely Wilhelm gained a royal boon to be emancipated from the Chantry and the Order of Templars.

[naledgeborn]

Once a mage has "proven" him/herself I assume their given some immunity to the Templar Order. Much like Wardens or Champion Hawke.

Even Qunari do this.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hans54321 wrote...

Another example of a known mage working for the nobility living outside the Circle: Wilhelm.

Wilhelm also had children with his wife, so he clearly wasn't part of the Circle anymore since Gaider addressed that Circle mages have their children taken from them by the Chantry (which only Grey Warden mages are exempt from, since they aren't under the auspices of the Chantry). Given Wilhelm being a war hero for the Rebel Queen Moira, and her son Prince Maric the Savior, it's likely Wilhelm gained a royal boon to be emancipated from the Chantry and the Order of Templars.

Right, like the magi boon in Orgins that went over so well.

Face it - some mages are given greater privileges than others.  Wilhelm is one of them.

[TEWR]

Mages were never the only ones who can cause destruction. Bombs have existed for quite some time. Even magical bombs like the lyrium dust bombs in Awakening. Mages still hold the edge as they don't require weaponry or ingredients to cause destruction. Anders used a bomb, sure, but he didn't need one. Connor pretty much decimated Redcliffe and he was just one abomination.

the bombs that existed pre-Dworkin were small things that didn't do much destruction. Post Dworkin, knowledge of the lyrium explosives hadn't spread past Ferelden until Nathaniel's expedition. The only ones who did know about aside from the people at Vigil's Keep were the Qunari.

And in retrospect, that should've tipped me off that there were in fact Qunari spies in Thedas.

The common people have been shown to be armed well enough throughout DA2. All those thieves and mercenaries with their arms and armor. Nothing stopping the mob from raiding a shop either and equipping themselves from the weapons there.

Eh true. There are literally barrels and crates filled with weapons and armor, so they'd probably just scavenge it.

nevertheless, you also need experience with a weapon. You can't just pick it up and suddenly be able to use it. You have to grow used to the weight and other things.

These same templars that the mage sympathizers would have us believe are all rapists and crazed zealots raised and trained to hate all magic? Can't have it both ways. Either the templars do their duty and protect mages or they don't care and go out of their way to hurt mages.

to be fair, to our knowledge all of the good Templars died due to plot stupidity.

You have no proof that no mob forms. If there was no mob and Meredith was lying, wouldn't the game allow you to confirm that? All it would take is one line of dialogue. And the city guard is weakened by the series of events in Kirkwall. Plus, they might be loyal to Aveline, but would that loyalty trump their faith?

The city guard had their ranks bolstered in the years after Kirkwall's battle with the Qunari. Aveline was willing to recruit Elves into the City Guard (Lia, so logically more may have been recruited) and the City Guard has been able to keep the crime rate down with minimum casualties.

I think it's safe to say they would've been able to handle any mob that formed (if one did) since they're also considered the official army of Kirkwall and were given permission to conscript anyone they needed.

And Anders took away the only thing stopping Meredith from calling the RoA.

Meredith probably would've murdered the Grand Cleric anyway and called it a "mercy killing" for her friend and used the excuse of maleficarum controlling her, and then would've probably done the same for any Chantry cleric that became Grand Cleric until one either agreed with her out of fear or a similar hatred for mages. Then, they would've called for the RoA.

That's just my speculation mind you, but the game made this seem likely.

[Zanallen]

Meh, anyway, all I am saying is that there is no way to know that there wasn't a mob, nor how said mob would have reacted. I don't really want to get involved in this thread any more than that...'Cause they never end well. There are just too many differences between pro-mage people and pro-templar people.