208 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

I like to consider myself an idealist, a reformist, and a moderate when it comes to Mages and Templars. I want mages to have more rights, but I understand the necessity of the Circle and the Templars.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 octobre 2011 - 12:11 .

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Right, like the magi boon in Origins that went over so well.

Considering the independent Circle of Orzammar doesn't form if The Warden asks for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its freedom from the Chantry, I would wager that the developers changed their minds and gave us the "Chantry said no" scenario. Otherwise, I don't see a reason for the independent Circle of Orzammar not to form if the royal boon was originally intended to have no real impact.

TJPags wrote...

Face it - some mages are given greater privileges than others. Wilhelm is one of them.

Since Gaider addressed that no Circle mage can keep a child, since they always lose them to the Chantry, it's basically a matter of fact that Wilhelm can't be operating under the auspices of the Chantry controlled Circle and have a family because it's illegal. Wilhelm isn't a Grey Warden, which was the only exception to the rule confirmed by Gaider. Most likely, Wilhelm had a royal boon from the ruler because he was a war hero, which explains why he lives outside the Circle Tower with his own family.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Right, like the magi boon in Origins that went over so well.

Considering the independent Circle of Orzammar doesn't form if The Warden asks for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its freedom from the Chantry, I would wager that the developers changed their minds and gave us the "Chantry said no" scenario. Otherwise, I don't see a reason for the independent Circle of Orzammar not to form if the royal boon was originally intended to have no real impact.

TJPags wrote...

Face it - some mages are given greater privileges than others. Wilhelm is one of them.

Since Gaider addressed that no Circle mage can keep a child, since they always lose them to the Chantry, it's basically a matter of fact that Wilhelm can't be operating under the auspices of the Chantry controlled Circle and have a family because it's illegal. Wilhelm isn't a Grey Warden, which was the only exception to the rule confirmed by Gaider. Most likely, Wilhelm had a royal boon from the ruler because he was a war hero, which explains why he lives outside the Circle Tower with his own family.

1.  I fail to see what the Circle of Orzamar has to do with the magi boon.

2.  Please show me the exact quote from DG before I comment on or accept that.

As to the final part of your comment, you say "most likely".  It fits your theory, I get that.  Yet why would the ruler of Ferelden get such a boon for a specific mage?  Wilhelm also has - or had, before he died - correspondence with Irving . . .or maybe Irving's predecesor, but certainly the First Enchanter.  Why would that be the case, if it wasn't simply that he was being given a bit more freedom than most.  Sam as Wynne, Ines, and Finn, who all go roaming around Thedas with no Chantry supervision.

[TEWR]

I can vouch for the David Gaider quote, as I've seen it before. I'm trying to dig up the specific thread though.


http://social.biowar...01810/2#4813633

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 octobre 2011 - 12:30 .

[LobselVith8]

naledgeborn wrote...

Once a mage has "proven" him/herself I assume their given some immunity to the Templar Order. Much like Wardens or Champion Hawke.

Even Qunari do this.

Gaider addressed that the children of Circle mages are taken by the Chantry, so it has nothing to do with being "proven."

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Yes, married or not the child of a mage is taken away by the Chantry.

Would the same happen if the mage was also a Grey Warden, such as the Warden-Commander of DA:O and Awakenings?

A mage who is not part of the Circle is not subject to the will of the Chantry. So, no.

[TJPags]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I can vouch for the David Gaider quote, as I've seen it before. I'm trying to dig up the specific thread though.


http://social.biowar...01810/2#4813633

Thanks for that link.

I'll point out two things, which I know Lob will disagree with:

1.  That thread clearly seems to be talking about mages IN the Circle, not those living outside it, such as Wilhelm.  Therefore, I can't see how it applies to him.

2.  Wilhelm's journal entries speak of "young Mathias" (his son), which implies that he had his son  - and perhaps even got married, although that's clearly permitted in some situations - while outside the Circle.  Templars can't take what they don't know about.

In short, I see nothing to indicate definitively that Wilhelm was not a Circle mage.  His codex even describes him as such.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

I'll point out two things, which I know Lob will disagree with:

1.  That thread clearly seems to be talking about mages IN the Circle, not those living outside it, such as Wilhelm.  Therefore, I can't see how it applies to him.

Gaider addresses Circle mages in general. He specifically states that even if the specific mage is married, they will lose their children to the Chantry:

David Gaider wrote...

Yes, married or not the child of a mage is taken away by the Chantry.

Because Gaider addresses that the only reason Grey Warden mages don't have their children taken away is because they aren't regulated by the Chantry, I don't see how you are trying to argue that Wilhelm has permission to have a child when it's clearly not permissible for Circle mages to raise their own children.

TJPags wrote...

2.  Wilhelm's journal entries speak of "young Mathias" (his son), which implies that he had his son  - and perhaps even got married, although that's clearly permitted in some situations - while outside the Circle.  Templars can't take what they don't know about.

In short, I see nothing to indicate definitively that Wilhelm was not a Circle mage.  His codex even describes him as such.

He's living with his wife and child in a village with regular communication with the Circle of Ferelden that he had ties to, he isn't hiding from the templars like Malcolm and Leandra Hawke were. And the fact that he's living outside the Circle Tower strongly suggests he's no longer a Circle mage, especially when you consider that he has a child in a village of people who clearly know that he's a mage (with a golem, no less).

[EmperorSahlertz]

Gaider didn't say that the Chantry didn't allow for special cases of mages to keep their children and live outside the Circles. We already know that some mages are allowed to live outside of Circles (such as court mages), so it isn't much of a stretch to imagine that the Chantry could allow a mage a family in special cases.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I'll point out two things, which I know Lob will disagree with:

1. That thread clearly seems to be talking about mages IN the Circle, not those living outside it, such as Wilhelm. Therefore, I can't see how it applies to him.

Gaider addresses Circle mages in general. He specifically states that even if the specific mage is married, they will lose their children to the Chantry:

David Gaider wrote...

Yes, married or not the child of a mage is taken away by the Chantry.

Because Gaider addresses that the only reason Grey Warden mages don't have their children taken away is because they aren't regulated by the Chantry, I don't see how you are trying to argue that Wilhelm has permission to have a child when it's clearly not permissible for Circle mages to raise their own children.

TJPags wrote...

2. Wilhelm's journal entries speak of "young Mathias" (his son), which implies that he had his son - and perhaps even got married, although that's clearly permitted in some situations - while outside the Circle. Templars can't take what they don't know about.

In short, I see nothing to indicate definitively that Wilhelm was not a Circle mage. His codex even describes him as such.

He's living with his wife and child in a village with regular communication with the Circle of Ferelden that he had ties to, he isn't hiding from the templars like Malcolm and Leandra Hawke were. And the fact that he's living outside the Circle Tower strongly suggests he's no longer a Circle mage, especially when you consider that he has a child in a village of people who clearly know that he's a mage (with a golem, no less).

See, I knew you'd disagree. 

Look, don't take his comment out of context. He was responding to a question about mages in the tower when he said "Married or not, the child is taken away". Gaider addresses the GW issue in response to a direct question from you.

You even mention Wilhelm has ties to the Circle. So we have a known Circle mage in communication with the Circle. About topics the First Enchanter chooses to keep secret.

Does the First Enchanter know about Mathias? Maybe, but there's no indication he does.

Does Eamon know that the Circle should take Mathias away? He's not a mage, why would he?

Would he keep it secret even if he knew? Considering he owes WIlhelm, likely.

Do the villagers of Honleath know about taking away children of mages? Again, why would they?

[LobselVith8]

I disagree because Gaider already addressed what happened to the children of Circle mages, and addressed why it was different for Grey Wardens - specifically because they are not "subject to the will of the Chantry."

[TJPags]

Exactly - you disagree because of what he said, in the contecxt you want him to have said it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Since mages are "subject to the will of the chantry", then if the Chantry wills it, a mage can be allowed to live outside the circle and have a family...

[jamesp81]

The Circle is inherently a tyrannical organization. There's no other way to view it without wilfully blinding oneself to reality.

You don't get to lock people up who have committed no crime due to an accident of birth. I don't give two damns what kind of power they have.

If templars were subject to the same rules as mages, I might go along with it, but they clearly aren't.  By same rules, I'm talking about imprisonment for speaking with outsiders and summary execution for any reason those in charge decides is sufficient.  Or maybe if they had a policy of executing the Knight Commander every time a templar committed a crime against a mage, for example.

Modifié par jamesp81, 24 octobre 2011 - 02:12 .

[TheRevanchist]

instead of trying to do the impossible by constructing a bridge between the sides of this issue...we should unite to form a mob and demand that the devs finally tell us about Anora's fertility! >

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Exactly - you disagree because of what he said, in the contecxt you want him to have said it in.

His "context" was in reference to Circle mages who live under the will of the Chantry, and addressing that the exception to this were Grey Warden mages. You are more than welcome to continue contesting what he actually wrote.

[KJandrew]

I never was in the "All mages should be free and the chantry should be abolished" camp but i still wanted them to get better rights and hoped for a perfected circle system i.e Not under the control of the Chantry, more like a military camp version of Hogwarts under the control of the crown, with Templars being subject to laws about their treatment of Mages.
I also reckon that more senior and stable mages such as Bethany, Wynne and Irving should be allowed to leave the Circle and get homes, as long as they're near a Templar post so they can be checked on occasionally to make sure they've not gone insane or doing weird stuff like Quentin or Uldred.

[TheRevanchist]

KJandrew wrote...

I never was in the "All mages should be free and the chantry should be abolished" camp but i still wanted them to get better rights and hoped for a perfected circle system i.e Not under the control of the Chantry, more like a military camp version of Hogwarts under the control of the crown, with Templars being subject to laws about their treatment of Mages.
I also reckon that more senior and stable mages such as Bethany, Wynne and Irving should be allowed to leave the Circle and get homes, as long as they're near a Templar post so they can be checked on occasionally to make sure they've not gone insane or doing weird stuff like Quentin or Uldred.

Thats actually a possible comprimise...considering Oversight of Mages is indeed needed to avoid another Tevinter Imperium. But then many Mage sympathizers think Tevinter is a good thing and is the ultimate example of WHY mages should be free and that Blood Magic is not evil despite the horrible things Mages do with it. I dont quite understand this logic even when looking at it from their side of the fence. But eaither way, Ander's has made sure there IS no comprimise anymore, its a battle to the death and there are FAR more Templars and Chantry then Mages.

[TheRevanchist]

Hanz54321 wrote...

TJPags wrote...


Does Eamon know that the Circle should take Mathias away? He's not a mage, why would he?

Would he keep it secret even if he knew? Considering he owes WIlhelm, likely.

This = logic fail.

Isolde hired Jowan and kept Connor's powers a secret from Eamon because Eamon would "do the right thing."

So the game flat out tells you a) Eamon knows that mage babies go to the Tower and Eamon would send his own son.

The evidence is in the game.  There's no speculating to be done on these two points you brought up.

Except we're not really sure Wilhelm's son is a Mage. He only uses the barrier because he has the key for it...what that key is idk...probably a crystal or something. Would probably not bother if the child wasn't a mage.

[Big I]

kylecouch wrote...

Except we're not really sure Wilhelm's son is a Mage. He only uses the barrier because he has the key for it...what that key is idk...probably a crystal or something. Would probably not bother if the child wasn't a mage.

It doesn't matter if the his son's a mage. Mages don't "show" their power at birth, but all children of mages are taken away anyway.

[PantheraOnca]

Hanz54321 wrote...

This = logic fail.

Isolde hired Jowan and kept Connor's powers a secret from Eamon because Eamon would "do the right thing."

So the game flat out tells you a) Eamon knows that mage babies go to the Tower and Eamon would send his own son.

The evidence is in the game.  There's no speculating to be done on these two points you brought up.

sending an untrained boy mage to the circle is absolutely not the same as sending a trained, respected, and as far as all evidence shows, trustworthy mage's son away from him.

The untrained mage is an actual danger to those around him, the mage's son is not.

(I'm not sure what Eamon would do)

[TJPags]

Hanz54321 wrote...

TJPags wrote...


Does Eamon know that the Circle should take Mathias away? He's not a mage, why would he?

Would he keep it secret even if he knew? Considering he owes WIlhelm, likely.

This = logic fail.

Isolde hired Jowan and kept Connor's powers a secret from Eamon because Eamon would "do the right thing."

So the game flat out tells you a) Eamon knows that mage babies go to the Tower and Eamon would send his own son.

The evidence is in the game.  There's no speculating to be done on these two points you brought up.

Except, Eamon is not a mage.  Isolde is not a mage. 

The issue is whether Eamon knows that children of mages have to be taken away from them.  Since neither he nor Isolde are mages, the fact he would send his mage child to the Circle is completely irrelevant to the issue.

So the evidence is not "in game" and speculation is quite acceptable.

[TEWR]

TJPags wrote...


Except, Eamon is not a mage.  Isolde is not a mage. 

The issue is whether Eamon knows that children of mages have to be taken away from them. 

 
Well Isolde tells the player she has magic in her blood, and she hid Connor away because she knew Eamon would send Connor to the Circle. The Andrastian Chantry made it a point that mages who are the children of nobility have to go to the Circle since they can't hold titles.