208 réponses à ce sujet

[TJPags]

KJandrew wrote...

I never was in the "All mages should be free and the chantry should be abolished" camp but i still wanted them to get better rights and hoped for a perfected circle system i.e Not under the control of the Chantry, more like a military camp version of Hogwarts under the control of the crown, with Templars being subject to laws about their treatment of Mages.
I also reckon that more senior and stable mages such as Bethany, Wynne and Irving should be allowed to leave the Circle and get homes, as long as they're near a Templar post so they can be checked on occasionally to make sure they've not gone insane or doing weird stuff like Quentin or Uldred.

My only problem with the "Circle run by the Crowns" idea is that different countries may have wildly different ideas about how to handle their Circles.  Different kings in the same country may have radically different opinions, as well.  I'm not sure that's a good idea.

Overall, though, I'd agree with someone besides the Chantry running it.  Personally, I feel religions should preach, and care for souls, not control the people.

I've also previously mentioned an idea similar to yours, which would allow senior enchanters (Bethany is not one, IMO, btw) much more freedom to travel or even live away from the Circle, so long as they maintain regular contact with their local Circle, advising them if they will be travelling, perhaps being required to go to the Circle every few years to sort of be checked out".

[TJPags]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

TJPags wrote...


Except, Eamon is not a mage.  Isolde is not a mage. 

The issue is whether Eamon knows that children of mages have to be taken away from them. 

 
Well Isolde tells the player she has magic in her blood, and she hid Connor away because she knew Eamon would send Connor to the Circle. The Andrastian Chantry made it a point that mages who are the children of nobility have to go to the Circle since they can't hold titles.

All true.  But Isolde, although she has mages in her family, or "magic in her blood", is not a mage.  Certainly not a Circle mage.  So while mage children of nobility have to go to Circles - a rule I concede - I still think it has no bearing on whether Isolde and Eamon know that children of mages must be taken from those parents.

As a comparison, Warrior or Rogue Hawke's children don't need to be taken from him under any Chantry law I know of, even though Hawke father and sister are mages.  Unless the child itself is a mage, of course.  And we have no evidence that Wilhelm's son is a mage.

We also, as I mentioned earlier, have no idea whether Eamon even knows Wilhelm had a child, and if Eamon didn't know that, the remainigng speculation is moot.

Note - I am purely speculating here.  We have no evidence either way, on any of the issues I brought up.

[TJPags]

Hanz54321 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Except, Eamon is not a mage.  Isolde is not a mage. 

The issue is whether Eamon knows that children of mages have to be taken away from them.  Since neither he nor Isolde are mages, the fact he would send his mage child to the Circle is completely irrelevant to the issue.

So the evidence is not "in game" and speculation is quite acceptable.

OK.   Well, I've made my point. 

Once an illogical statement is pointed out and the person who made the statement clings to it, that ends all rational discusssion.

Believe whatever you like but know that you're wrong.  I'm done with you on this topic.

So, let me understand clearly here:

I make a statement - actually, to be correct, pose some speculative questions.  You assert that I have failed in logic, and provide evidence to show that.  I point out that your evidence has nothing to do with the issue at hand.  You then assert that I have made an illogical statement, that you pointed that out, and I am clinging to it, thereby rendering rational discussion useless.  Thus, you are done with me.

Is that about it?  Because frankly, there has been nothing rational about the 3 - now 4 - post interaction we've had, so I'm fine with that.

[TEWR]

TJPags wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

TJPags wrote...


Except, Eamon is not a mage.  Isolde is not a mage. 

The issue is whether Eamon knows that children of mages have to be taken away from them. 

 
Well Isolde tells the player she has magic in her blood, and she hid Connor away because she knew Eamon would send Connor to the Circle. The Andrastian Chantry made it a point that mages who are the children of nobility have to go to the Circle since they can't hold titles.

All true.  But Isolde, although she has mages in her family, or "magic in her blood", is not a mage.  Certainly not a Circle mage.  So while mage children of nobility have to go to Circles - a rule I concede - I still think it has no bearing on whether Isolde and Eamon know that children of mages must be taken from those parents.

As a comparison, Warrior or Rogue Hawke's children don't need to be taken from him under any Chantry law I know of, even though Hawke father and sister are mages.  Unless the child itself is a mage, of course.  And we have no evidence that Wilhelm's son is a mage.

We also, as I mentioned earlier, have no idea whether Eamon even knows Wilhelm had a child, and if Eamon didn't know that, the remainigng speculation is moot.

Note - I am purely speculating here.  We have no evidence either way, on any of the issues I brought up.

Well, Wilhelm's son Matthias is subject to possession by Kitty and so is Matthias' daughter Amalia, so I think that points to them being mages.

Still, it is speculation since the game doesn't outright say it. It points to it, but doesn't make it clear.

[TJPags]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

TJPags wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

TJPags wrote...


Except, Eamon is not a mage.  Isolde is not a mage. 

The issue is whether Eamon knows that children of mages have to be taken away from them. 

 
Well Isolde tells the player she has magic in her blood, and she hid Connor away because she knew Eamon would send Connor to the Circle. The Andrastian Chantry made it a point that mages who are the children of nobility have to go to the Circle since they can't hold titles.

All true.  But Isolde, although she has mages in her family, or "magic in her blood", is not a mage.  Certainly not a Circle mage.  So while mage children of nobility have to go to Circles - a rule I concede - I still think it has no bearing on whether Isolde and Eamon know that children of mages must be taken from those parents.

As a comparison, Warrior or Rogue Hawke's children don't need to be taken from him under any Chantry law I know of, even though Hawke father and sister are mages.  Unless the child itself is a mage, of course.  And we have no evidence that Wilhelm's son is a mage.

We also, as I mentioned earlier, have no idea whether Eamon even knows Wilhelm had a child, and if Eamon didn't know that, the remainigng speculation is moot.

Note - I am purely speculating here.  We have no evidence either way, on any of the issues I brought up.

Well, Wilhelm's son Matthias is subject to possession by Kitty and so is Matthias' daughter Amalia, so I think that points to them being mages.

Still, it is speculation since the game doesn't outright say it. It points to it, but doesn't make it clear.

Except we know demons can possess non-mages.  It may be more difficult if its unwilling - as in the case of the Templars - but it can be done.

Also, is Mathias (that's the son?) subject to possession?  I've only ever seen Amelia (the daughter, I presume?  Sorry, can't remember their names) possessed, maybe simply because of how I played it.

As to the barrier, Wilhelm's journal mentions that he keyed the barrier to recognize his kids, so they could come and go it if was up or down.  Mathias, I'm pretty sure, mentions that his father told/showed him how to activate it - which makes me think of something magical with a normal trigger, which need not be activated by a mage.  Certainly Mathias shows no magical ability other than perhaps activating the barrier.

[lobi]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well, Wilhelm's son Matthias is subject to possession by Kitty and so is Matthias' daughter Amalia, so I think that points to them being mages.

Still, it is speculation since the game doesn't outright say it. It points to it, but doesn't make it clear.

Although Demonic possession (especially by Desire Demons) is not solely the burden of mages. Matthias removes the barrier so he is a mage. He may have weakend the wards binding Kitty when he put the barrier up allowing her to call Amalia, a child. There is no evidence that Amalia herself is a mage. 
edit: Matthias gestures like a mage. A non-mage trigger would require an artifact imbued with magic. similar to a control rod for a golem.

Modifié par lobi, 24 octobre 2011 - 11:39 .

[TheRevanchist]

lobi wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well, Wilhelm's son Matthias is subject to possession by Kitty and so is Matthias' daughter Amalia, so I think that points to them being mages.

Still, it is speculation since the game doesn't outright say it. It points to it, but doesn't make it clear.

Although Demonic possession (especially by Desire Demons) is not solely the burden of mages. Matthias removes the barrier so he is a mage. He may have weakend the wards binding Kitty when he put the barrier up allowing her to call Amalia, a child. There is no evidence that Amalia herself is a mage. 
edit: Matthias gestures like a mage. A non-mage trigger would require an artifact imbued with magic. similar to a control rod for a golem.

He gestures like a mage due to lack of animation variety present in the game I would think. He very cleary states his fater gave him a Key to turn the barrier On and Off.

[TEWR]

Except we know demons can possess non-mages.  It may be more difficult if its unwilling - as in the case of the Templars - but it can be done.

Oh I know that non-mages can be possessed, but that takes work. It took Tarohne a great deal of effort to place demons into unwilling hosts.

Also, is Mathias (that's the son?) subject to possession?  I've only ever seen Amelia (the daughter, I presume?  Sorry, can't remember their names) possessed, maybe simply because of how I played it.

He is. According to the wiki -- as I've never done this myself -- he can be possessed if one runs back to him before freeing Kitty and he'll end up running back to his daughter. When the Warden goes back there, he's possessed.

Now, it's possible he was a willing subject so that his daughter would be safe, but the game doesn't say anything like this as far as I know. So he could just as easily have been a mage that was caught off guard by finding a demon and was easily possessed.

As to the barrier, Wilhelm's journal mentions that he keyed the barrier to recognize his kids, so they could come and go it if was up or down.  Mathias, I'm pretty sure, mentions that his father told/showed him how to activate it - which makes me think of something magical with a normal trigger, which need not be activated by a mage.  Certainly Mathias shows no magical ability other than perhaps activating the barrier.

Perhaps the toolset has some hidden information on the characters?

[TJPags]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Start at the 4:00 mark.

Well, I'll admit, he does act like a mage casting a spell.

How to square that with Wilhelm's letter, which indicated he keyed the defenses to recognize his blood.

Wasn't there some dialogue with Mathias about the barrier?  Maybe I didn't watch long enough, or the person playing just didn't choose it?

[Zanallen]

TJPags wrote...

Well, I'll admit, he does act like a mage casting a spell.

How to square that with Wilhelm's letter, which indicated he keyed the defenses to recognize his blood.

Wasn't there some dialogue with Mathias about the barrier?  Maybe I didn't watch long enough, or the person playing just didn't choose it?

I could have sworn you can ask him about it, but it has been forever since I played it.

[lobi]

Mathias would deny being a mage anyway, if he valued his freedom. Templars hunted Flemith and she was in the wilds not a village.

Modifié par lobi, 25 octobre 2011 - 01:52 .

[SkittlesKat96]

I think Mathias does have some magical ability but I don't think he has enough to be considered a proper mage. He was only manipulating his fathers in-built magical defense systems.

Or maybe the villagers just never bothered reporting him or something. Also can magic pass through genes in DA? If so then that would probably add plausibility

You'd also think that Wilhelm's granddaughter/Mathias daughter might have magical ability too because the demon possessed her and I think demons prefer to possess people with magical ability don't they?

To be honest I'm more confused as to why Wilhelm was allowed to live outside of the circle...is there even an explanation for that? The wiki says he was apart of the Circle yet he's living in a village...

[LobselVith8]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

I think Mathias does have some magical ability but I don't think he has enough to be considered a proper mage. He was only manipulating his fathers in-built magical defense systems.

Whether he's a "proper" mage or not, he seems to be using magic to erect a shield over the survivors.

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

Or maybe the villagers just never bothered reporting him or something. Also can magic pass through genes in DA? If so then that would probably add plausibility

Isolde and Leandra both mention that magic runs in their family, to the respective protagonist of both stories.

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

You'd also think that Wilhelm's granddaughter/Mathias daughter might have magical ability too because the demon possessed her and I think demons prefer to possess people with magical ability don't they?

True, demons are drawn to mages.

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

To be honest I'm more confused as to why Wilhelm was allowed to live outside of the circle...is there even an explanation for that? The wiki says he was apart of the Circle yet he's living in a village...

It's likely because Wilhelm is a war hero who fought under two different rulers of Ferelden - the Rebel Queen Moira, and Prince Maric the Savior. If he was given a boon (like Loghain and The Warden are), I'd imagine he would ask to be free from the Chantry controlled Circle of Ferelden, which would explain why he's living outside the Circle Tower with a wife and child (the latter is illegal for Circle mages, since the Chantry takes away their children).

[PussTheMabari]

I don't know, does the fact that a few mages are given a lot of freedom detract from the issue that a lot of mages will never step out of the tower their entire lives? If mages can move in and out as they please why was Anders trying so hard to escape?

[dragonflight288]

I don't know, does the fact that a few mages are given a lot of freedom detract from the issue that a lot of mages will never step out of the tower their entire lives? If mages can move in and out as they please why was Anders trying so hard to escape?

I see Anders entire situation is a matter of perspective. Comparing him to Wynne, Finn, or Ines the Botanist-those three followed the rules of the exact same Circle Anders is from and they are let out regularly. Finn earned the right to go out for research purposes. Wynne often took up tasks outside of the Circle. They worked hard within the system and improved their individual situations.

Anders on the other hand was escaping non-stop since he was an apprentice. He saw the entire Circle as a prison and was even put in solitary confinement for a year. He brought the ire of the templars down on him far more often. He would have more negative experiences than Finn (who loves the circles...mainly from a hatred of being outdoors and love of studying) or Wynne who learned to accept her lot in life and find happiness in it.

[Heimdall]

Rojahar wrote... as it requires consorting with demons, and it's established in the lore that mages are MORE at risk to demonic influence than anybody else.

Jowan learned it through books

[PussTheMabari]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I see Anders entire situation is a matter of perspective. Comparing him to Wynne, Finn, or Ines the Botanist-those three followed the rules of the exact same Circle Anders is from and they are let out regularly. Finn earned the right to go out for research purposes. Wynne often took up tasks outside of the Circle. They worked hard within the system and improved their individual situations.

Anders on the other hand was escaping non-stop since he was an apprentice. He saw the entire Circle as a prison and was even put in solitary confinement for a year. He brought the ire of the templars down on him far more often. He would have more negative experiences than Finn (who loves the circles...mainly from a hatred of being outdoors and love of studying) or Wynne who learned to accept her lot in life and find happiness in it.

Hmm I agree.  But what mystifies me is if it was so easy to gain some freedom, why did Anders persist in escapes which were doomed to end in failure because of his phylactery? If I were Anders, I'd behave myself and earn the right to be let out.  It could be that the privilege is given to a select few out of many many mages, since most of the mages allowed out were outstanding in some way.  That means if you were a mediocre mage, perhaps you would never have the chance to ever leave the circle, as there'd be someone better-qualified that you to send.

or it could just be that Anders didn't believe in this sort of half-freedom.. the "if you behave I'll loosen you leash" sort of reward...

[LobselVith8]

PussTheMabari wrote...

Hmm I agree.  But what mystifies me is if it was so easy to gain some freedom, why did Anders persist in escapes which were doomed to end in failure because of his phylactery?

Because it isn't. Wynne is a Senior Enchanter, and even she needs permission to leave the Circle Tower - which she gets from either the First Enchanter or the Knight-Commander to aid in the Fifth Blight, and she's also the next in line to be First Enchanter of the Circle of Ferelden. Ines is studying a plant that is rumored to be able to grow in Blighted soil (which is the explanation she provides if The Warden questions why she's still in Amaranthine), which is undoubtably important given the utter devastation that was caused by the Fifth Blight (which is why crops won't grow in Lothering anymore). Finn is a skilled linquist, and he has permission to leave concerning his research in languages. All three of these cases are isolated, and not likely to be the case for the majority of mages residing in the Circle Tower. The only mage who has any real freedom is a Grey Warden.

PussTheMabari wrote...

If I were Anders, I'd behave myself and earn the right to be let out.  It could be that the privilege is given to a select few out of many many mages, since most of the mages allowed out were outstanding in some way.  That means if you were a mediocre mage, perhaps you would never have the chance to ever leave the circle, as there'd be someone better-qualified that you to send.

How is Anders going to "earn" the right? Is he going to be next in line to be First Enchanter? Is he going to be a botonist and study a rare plant that could save the Blighted soil of Ferelden? Is he going to become a master linquist? If getting outside the Circle Tower was so effortless, there wouldn't have been a rebellion in Ferelden.

[PantheraOnca]

Hanz54321 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

How is Anders going to "earn" the right? Is he going to be next in line to be First Enchanter? Is he going to be a botonist and study a rare plant that could save the Blighted soil of Ferelden? Is he going to become a master linquist? If getting outside the Circle Tower was so effortless, there wouldn't have been a rebellion in Ferelden.

I agree with you.

But to play devils advocate  tee hee . . .

1)  He was portrayed as a helluva healer in DA2.  He could've mastered that skill in the tower, showed the Knight-Commander and First Enchanter his devotion and talent for healing, and that would've got him out for all sorts of things.  Military expeditions healing the soldiers, plagues affecting the nobility (perhaps even the commoners if the Chantry were feeling generous), etc.

2)  Totally out there . . . but after escaping so many times he could've turned Frank Abignail Jr and assisted the Templar as a security and re-caprure expert.  Of course . . . he'd have to sell-out.  But he could've used that as a way to go legit . . .

to play... god's advocate?...

1- Spirit healing stuff is known to come from "beneficial" spirits in the fade, and i think the codex entry in DA:O mentions something about templars (and maybe other mages, or people in general) being very worried that a spirit healer is more liable to become possessed/an abomination of some sort. Both non-PC characters who have spirit healing abilities are abominations in the sense that they are joined with a being of the fade, wynne's just doesn't seem to have turned in to a total @#$% in the process.

2- Theoretically possible. Theortically. :-p