170 réponses à ce sujet

[Marionetten]

Paragon Shepard is pretty much Space Jesus at this point.

[capn233]

How is Thane? He is one of the best assassins and what else? He doesn't have an overabundance of skill sets. And it isn't as if someone couldn't become the most proficient assassin with some talent and a lifelong dedication to the trade.

[SandTrout]

Yeah, Thane doesn't really fit the mold. He was practically suicidal when we recruited him.

I'm not a fan of the character in general (too emo) but he ain't a Mary Sue.

[bobdooly]

SandTrout wrote...

Yeah, Thane doesn't really fit the mold. He was practically suicidal when we recruited him.

I'm not a fan of the character in general (too emo) but he ain't a Mary Sue.

from Ah Yes Reapers:

"Thane.

Worst he ever did is "abandon" his son (lol, abandon him.... to his relatives), but even that was for reasons of "I didn't want him to become like me" kind of things. Otherwise, he's basically a character made for girls by girls, the perfect-man. He's smart, reads philosophers in his spare time, isn't thrown by anything ever, he goes around in a leather coat, humble, spiritual... it's just too much. Even his being an assassin is negated by the fact that he seems to target bad people only.

Really, in terms of believability, he was the least to me. At least Jacob who I hate feels like an actual person, this is just not a very good character. How about having him make a big mistake in his life, like if he really abandoned his wife over some serious fight or something, then came back to realize his wife was killed and he couldn't find his son at all.

That would've made him a lot more human. Instead, he's more of a try-hard attempt at making a new mascot for the ME series. Everything about his character is forced."

[SandTrout]

Simply not being a believable character =/= Gary Stu.

He went on a sadistic, homicidal crusade after they killed his wife, and is unable to adapt to life outside of assassin contracts or raise his son properly. He is not any sane person's 'ideal'.

Edit: Also, because of those failings, his son attempts to become a hit-man in his own right, which Thane and Shepard must then prevent.

Modifié par SandTrout, 21 octobre 2011 - 10:17 .

[PauseforEffect]

Sooo want to say Liara, but since all the reasons were listed then...
Conrad.
Yeah, Conrad. Running into him of all people...in a high priced city like Illium...after getting a reunion with nearly all the NPC characters from Noveria and Liara...it was just too much.

[capn233]

A fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader. It is generally accepted as a character whose positive aspects overwhelm their other traits until they become one-dimensional.

As it relates to Thane, I don't see it.

Some of the above about Thane has taken a bit of dramatic license and filled in some of his background (or outright incorrect statements). He starting targeting exclusively criminals after the death of his wife and after his diagnosis as a means to atone. Granted, he never felt guilty about killing as he was simply a weapon, but he never claimed that all of his contracts were criminals. It's sort of ambiguous what all evils he is talking about if he isn't talking about the contracts, although he mentions that he made everyone involved in his wife's death suffer as opposed to granting death quickly.  He also takes some of the blame for Dantius' workers dying because he wasn't fast or skilled enough.

As far as leaving his family, what is this about having a fight with his wife? Wasn't the real issue that he was so invested in his work that he was never around? He was released from the Hanar when he started his family, but he didn't know anything else and started freelancing.

How is it that he "isn't thrown by anything ever?" He seemed thrown enough by guilt about his wife's death that he completely abandoned his son. He isn't very suave when talking to his son on his loyalty mission either.

Modifié par capn233, 21 octobre 2011 - 10:35 .

[SirBoomstick]

People who have played the game to pieces - I'm not innocent of this.  When you play the game so many times, you're basically god in your own little Mass Effect series.

Modifié par SirBoomstick, 21 octobre 2011 - 10:56 .

[Labrev]

SandTrout wrote...

Simply not being a believable character =/= Gary Stu.

He went on a sadistic, homicidal crusade after they killed his wife, and is unable to adapt to life outside of assassin contracts or raise his son properly. He is not any sane person's 'ideal'.

Edit: Also, because of those failings, his son attempts to become a hit-man in his own right, which Thane and Shepard must then prevent.

A homicidal crusade to kill ruthless batarian thugs that killed innocent people. Liara is unable to adapt to life outside Prothean archeology very well too and she's a concensus Mary Sue, what's your point?

Mary Sue's are not ideal individuals, they are people who lack significant flaws/have no real negative qualities in them. Worst thing we can think of Thane doing was killing some people who deserved it.

His only one failing we know of in his life was done with good intent: to make sure his son wouldn't follow after him.

[SandTrout]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

A homicidal crusade to kill ruthless batarian thugs that killed innocent people. Liara is unable to adapt to life outside Prothean archeology very well too and she's a concensus Mary Sue, what's your point?

I disagree with your supposed 'concesus' on the issue which is non-existent in the first place. Liara is not a Mary-Sue either.

Mary Sue's are not ideal individuals, they are people who lack significant flaws/have no real negative qualities in them. Worst thing we can think of Thane doing was killing some people who deserved it.

... And was unable to raise his son without his wife's help, resulting in his son attempting to follow in his footsteps. Also, he was suicidal at the time of his RM.

His only one failing we know of in his life was done with good intent: to make sure his son wouldn't follow after him.

Just because something is done 'with good intent' doesn't make it any less of a flaw.

Modifié par SandTrout, 21 octobre 2011 - 10:58 .

[Labrev]

And, I would argue that Paragon Shepard is not a Mary Sue, in the sense that he/she is a blatant idealist and that fact is made painfully obvious. If you play a paragon-heavy career, you'll see that Shepard gets called on lots of things he says and laughed at for being so idealistic.

[Mx_CN3]

bobdooly wrote...

Paragon Shepard isn't because it's a role playing game. PCs have to be a big part of the story for the game to any fun at all. And, it's not like Liara where he was some guy with no combat training that saved the galaxy, he is from the highest possible trained and skilled human special forces group and was in the right place at the right time. Nothing more.

I agree with this.  Play any other BioWare game (and probably hundreds of others), and you'll find the same thing.  Your character practically HAS to be awesome, but that doesn't make you a Mary Sue.

I agree with Liara being a Mary Sue only to the extent that it applies to her combat training.  As she is incredibly young yet still one of the best archeologists in the galaxy, and she often operates alone, it makes sense for her to have a variety of skills and have the intelligence to be an information broker.

Modifié par Mx_CN3, 21 octobre 2011 - 10:59 .

[BatmanPWNS]

Saphra Deden wrote...

All that means is that Bioware likes to write Mary Sues as their protagonists.

Well not everyone likes Shep but most people do so I pretty much agree.

[Labrev]

SandTrout wrote...

Mary Sue's are not ideal individuals, they are people who lack significant flaws/have no real negative qualities in them.

Worst thing we can think of Thane doing was killing some people who deserved it.

... And was unable to raise his son without his wife's help, resulting in his son attempting to follow in his footsteps. Also, he was suicidal at the time of his RM.

His only one failing we know of in his life was done with good intent: to make sure his son wouldn't follow after him.

You're ignoring other, more significant, failings.

He wasn't unable, he just didn't try. He was afraid his son would follow after him, so left him to the care of relatives I wouldn't exactly call that an "abandonding" either, he just believed he wasn't the right person to raise him because of what he did.

And the thing is, he's not exactly wrong in thinking it either. He'd be a hypocrite in his son's eyes if he tried to raise him and tell him not to do what he does because, well, he's doing exactly what he's telling his son not to. Maybe he'd have followed in his footsteps after he died if he tried to raise him anyway.

So the worst we can say about him is:
-- He wanted the best for his son.
-- He went after a band of hooligans after they killed his wife.
-- He was suicidal, not a real character flaw in itself, especially not from a terminally-ill man with nothing left to live for.

If that's the worst than can be said about you, you're pretty much a Mary Sue.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 21 octobre 2011 - 11:09 .

[GodWood]

Liara, Paragon Shepard, Kahlee Sanders.

Mx_CN3 wrote...
Play any other BioWare game (and probably hundreds of others), and you'll find the same thing.  Your character practically HAS to be awesome.

Developers who believe this and fans who enjoy this are ruining videogames.

[bobdooly]

Saphra Deden wrote...

All that means is that Bioware likes to write Mary Sues as their protagonists.

You play as the hero in video games. You are the one guy that defeats the evil. If an NPC did exactly what Shepard/Revan/Exile did and you saw it through the eyes of some random soldier, nobody would see he/she/it as a Sue. Doing your job =/= Mary Sue. Being the only one willing to do your job that others could also do but don't have the opportunity/will to do it =/= Mary Sue.

[Mx_CN3]

Saphra Deden wrote...

All that means is that Bioware likes to write Mary Sues as their protagonists.

If I remember correctly, BioWare has very heavily hinted that, come ME3, the blue choice in ME2 might not have been the good choice.

I also feel that saying that a player-controlled character, where the player makes their decisions, is a Mary Sue is not really accurate.  In the end, it's the player that chooses whether or not the character is a Mary Sue by making their decisions.  That's what a roleplaying game is supposed to do... if you roleplay as a Mary Sue, it seems silly to complain about the character being one (not saying you're complaining, I'm speaking in general terms).

[sorentoft]

Renegade Shepard.

[GodWood]

sorentoft wrote...
Renegade Shepard.

Nah.

Jerk Sue maybe.

[Mx_CN3]

GodWood wrote...

Mx_CN3 wrote...
Play any other BioWare game (and probably hundreds of others), and you'll find the same thing.  Your character practically HAS to be awesome.

Developers who believe this and fans who enjoy this are ruining videogames.

KotOR: well, I don't really want to put in spoilers, but everyone who played the game knows this.
DA:O: your character can rise from the scum of society (possibly) to be the greatest badass in the country.
Jade Empire: start as a student, and end up toppling an empire because you're the greatest fighter in the history of ever.

Those are just BioWare examples, but I would hardly call those games that are "ruining" the industry (apparently JE wasn't as well liked, but I loved it).

Saphra Deden wrote...

They have done no such thing and unless it happens it doesn't help your argument.

Sadly, we'll have to wait another 4.5 months to find out

Modifié par Mx_CN3, 21 octobre 2011 - 11:22 .

[The Spamming Troll]

D.Kain wrote...

There are no perfect characters in ME universe they all have major flaws, Shepard included.

well not after you do their loyalty missions ofcorse.

seriously tho, neutral shepard is the only flawed shepard.