170 réponses à ce sujet

[NoxNoctum]

Liara and Anderson seem Mary Suesque.

Modifié par NoxNoctum, 21 octobre 2011 - 11:23 .

[LOLandStuff]

Some paragon actions are pure dumb. Like letting Balak go or not killing that asari from Samara's mission who turns out to be a killer.

[slimgrin]

SandTrout wrote...

Define "Mary Sue" first.

Good luck with that.

[GodWood]

Mx_CN3 wrote...
Those are just BioWare examples, but I would hardly call those games that are "ruining" the industry (apparently JE wasn't as well liked, but I loved it).

RPGs where the protaganist is 'teh biggest baddass EVAR' ruin roleplaying and limit your character to being a shallow Mary Sue character, thus cheapening the setting and the story.

Having games continue to do this is ruining them.

[SandTrout]

slimgrin wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Define "Mary Sue" first.

Good luck with that.

Someone did, and very clearly at that.

[LOLandStuff]

Is there a game where you don't save the day and die horribly? With one single ending where you die and get everyone killed and doom everything around you?

[bobdooly]

GodWood wrote...

Mx_CN3 wrote...
Those are just BioWare examples, but I would hardly call those games that are "ruining" the industry (apparently JE wasn't as well liked, but I loved it).

RPGs where the protaganist is 'teh biggest baddass EVAR' ruin roleplaying and limit your character to being a shallow Mary Sue character, thus cheapening the setting and the story.

Having games continue to do this is ruining them.

Name an RPG where you aren't the one who isn't 'teh biggest baddass EVAR'

[slimgrin]

bobdooly wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Mx_CN3 wrote...
Those are just BioWare examples, but I would hardly call those games that are "ruining" the industry (apparently JE wasn't as well liked, but I loved it).

RPGs where the protaganist is 'teh biggest baddass EVAR' ruin roleplaying and limit your character to being a shallow Mary Sue character, thus cheapening the setting and the story.

Having games continue to do this is ruining them.

Name an RPG where you aren't the one who isn't 'teh biggest baddass EVAR'

This is a good point. Besides, telling an author the moment he invests in wish fulfillment he risks creating a mary sue, is just plain stupid. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 21 octobre 2011 - 11:34 .

[GodWood]

bobdooly wrote...
Name an RPG where you aren't the one who isn't 'teh biggest baddass EVAR'

Why?

[The Hierophant]

bobdooly wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Mx_CN3 wrote...
Those are just BioWare examples, but I would hardly call those games that are "ruining" the industry (apparently JE wasn't as well liked, but I loved it).

RPGs where the protaganist is 'teh biggest baddass EVAR' ruin roleplaying and limit your character to being a shallow Mary Sue character, thus cheapening the setting and the story.

Having games continue to do this is ruining them.

Name an RPG where you aren't the one who isn't 'teh biggest baddass EVAR'

Dark Cloud 2, & Final Fantasy 12 for straters...^ beat me to it.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 21 octobre 2011 - 11:42 .

[bobdooly]

GodWood wrote...

bobdooly wrote...
Name an RPG where you aren't the one who isn't 'teh biggest baddass EVAR'

Why?

Beacuse by avoiding the question you imply that you can't. You said that making the PC "Sues" you ruin the industry. That means that games must have started off where the PCs were just boring old non Sues where, by Saphra's definition, they didn't do anything exceptional and were the exact same as everybody else.

They didn't defeat the evil, become better than their peers therefore being the only ones able/willing to do their job, weren't special in any way. Oh wait. Mario, Zelda, Doom, Metroid, CoD, Halo, KotOR, anything besides SW Battlefront and other games without singleplayer campaings where you play as a single character.

[Mx_CN3]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Any P&P game run by a competent DM. There are a few Ultima games where you start out having fallen far from glory.

Arcanum, Daggerfall, Oblivion. You CAN become the "ultimate badass" in these games, but that doesn't mean that is a good thing. In Arcanum at least becoming a badass like that takes very careful planning and meta-knowledge.

You're certainly right about tabletop games (though I feel D&D is changing in this regard...), but those are very different from video games.  In a video game, if you try to be a Mary Sue and get killed for it (however that would happen), you reload a save.  I'm not saying that it's impossible for a video game to punish you for being a Mary Sue (I very much hope that ME3 does), but games where that does, especially when players have a choice, are very few.  And even if the "bad" option makes you do the "good" thing, what's to prevent you from just reloading the old save and trying the "bad" option?  I feel that being a Mary Sue has as much to do with the player as it does the developer.

[GodWood]

bobdooly wrote...

GodWood wrote...

bobdooly wrote...
Name an RPG where you aren't the one who isn't 'teh biggest baddass EVAR'

Why?

Beacuse by avoiding the question you imply that you can't.

I avoided the question because I saw no reason to answer it.
Even if every single character in the games industry was a Sue that wouldn't contradict what I said. 

Having the PC be a Sue is ruining games.

You said that making the PC "Sues" you ruin the industry. That means that games must have started off where the PCs were just boring old non Sues

Not at all.
If characters were always Sues and games continued to have characters as Sues they'd still be ruining games.

where, by Saphra's definition, they didn't do anything exceptional and were the exact same as everybody else.

That was not Saphra's definition.

They didn't defeat the evil, become better than their peers therefore being the only ones able/willing to do their job, weren't special in any way. Oh wait. Mario, Zelda, Doom, Metroid, CoD, Halo, KotOR, anything besides SW Battlefront and other games without singleplayer campaings where you play as a single character.

Winning =/= Sue.

Being flawless, loved by all, always right and always succeeding makes you a Sue.

[1136342t54_]

No one in ME is a sue. Shepard may seem a good example of one but then again you would be wrong. Shepard's combat ability is very very good compared to most soldiers in the Galaxy and even better than some special forces operatives but then you will get some people on your team who are just better than Shepard at certain things.

Garrus and Legion are expert marksmen likely above infiltrator Shepard.

Wrex has more battle experience than the life span of an Asari.

Samara, Jack and Morinth are biotics so powerful they could turn an adept shepard to a smear on the wall.

Thane is such an effective and stealthy assassin he doesn't require cloaking abilities and can easily go in hand combat against multiple well trained fighters that are armed and armored and win.

I can go on and on but what actually makes Shepard great is his/her leading abilities.

[bobdooly]

EDIT: I'm quoting GodWood

Sorry. too lazy to seperate quotes.

"Not at all.
If characters were always Sues and games continued to have characters as Sues they'd still be ruining games."

You have to have something good before you can ruin it. I'm just going after your wording more than anything.

"Winning =/= Sue.

Being flawless, loved by all, always right and always succeeding makes you a Sue."

Yes, that is why Shepard is not a Sue. Shepard is not loved by everyone no matter how many times you spam the blue option (Council, various random people). Shepard does not always succeed (arriva, convincing the Council, making sense of Asari reproductionl). Shepard is not flawless (depends on what you choose more than others). He's just the guy who was in the right place in the right time and had the skills and will necessary.

Was Andrew Carnegie a Sue? An Irish immigrant during the immigration age who rose from being a lowly immigrant to being one of the riches men in history? No, he had the necessary skills, opportunity, and will to make his steel empire.

Modifié par bobdooly, 22 octobre 2011 - 12:07 .

[LOLandStuff]

Then not reloading the game once you hit the floor stops you from being a sue. That should solve the problem.

[Lucky Thirteen]

I think all the characters are. Except Jacob.

[GodWood]

bobdooly wrote...
You have to have something good before you can ruin it. I'm just going after your wording more than anything.

Ruining what they could be.

Yes, that is why Shepard is not a Sue. Shepard is not loved by everyone no matter how many times you spam the blue option (Council, various random people). Shepard does not always succeed (arriva, convincing the Council, making sense of Asari reproductionl). Shepard is not flawless (depends on what you choose more than others). He's just the guy who was in the right place in the right time and had the skills and will necessary.

Saphra already explained why paraShep is a Sue on the previous page.

[1136342t54_]

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

I think all the characters are. Except Jacob.

Actually all the freaking characters you encounter have significant flaws. Jacob really doesn't have one.

[1136342t54_]

What I'm wondering is how is Kahlee Sanders and Liara is constantly called a Sue. I could understand why some would call Paragon Shep a Sue (which I disagree with) but those two definitely aren't Sues.

[LOLandStuff]

1136342t54 wrote...

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

I think all the characters are. Except Jacob.

Actually all the freaking characters you encounter have significant flaws. Jacob really doesn't have one.

He does. He's just so boring, no one sees it.

[1136342t54_]

LOLandStuff wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

I think all the characters are. Except Jacob.

Actually all the freaking characters you encounter have significant flaws. Jacob really doesn't have one.

He does. He's just so boring, no one sees it.

Not the best argument. The only thing you could call a flaw is that he doesn't like sharing with others much that's it. Hell his loyalty mission involved trying to figure out if his father was alive not solving some hidden emotional issue.