170 réponses à ce sujet

[slimgrin]

The writers could expand the moral dilemmas in Mass Effect to make Shepard's reputation seem harder to classify. But I agree with those saying Shepard is most definitely not a sue, even if I were forced to take the definition seriously. The game is all about choosing sides, pleasing one group, pissing off another, second guessing yourself afterwards. This happens over and over, so how in the hell is Shepard an immaculate hero in this context?

Liara isn't a sue either. Her obsession for the Shadow Broker was a huge departure form her previous character, and a risky move by Bioware imo. I'm sure they knew full well many gamers wouldn't be pleased by her shift in personality. You even get the right dialog options to criticize her on it.

Anderson? He's a pushover most of the game in ME1, until the very end when he lets Udina have it. So he's not a sue.

Ashley? She's stubborn and Xenophobic...so nope.

Samara? Murders her own daughter.

...this is fun.  Is anyone a sue in the game?

Modifié par slimgrin, 22 octobre 2011 - 12:24 .

[bobdooly]

GodWood wrote...

bobdooly wrote...
You have to have something good before you can ruin it. I'm just going after your wording more than anything.

Ruining what they could be.

Yes, that is why Shepard is not a Sue. Shepard is not loved by everyone no matter how many times you spam the blue option (Council, various random people). Shepard does not always succeed (arriva, convincing the Council, making sense of Asari reproductionl). Shepard is not flawless (depends on what you choose more than others). He's just the guy who was in the right place in the right time and had the skills and will necessary.

Saphra already explained why paraShep is a Sue on the previous page.

We don't know wether all of Shepard's choices lead to bad ones as ME3 hasn't come out and that's where everything throught 1 and 2 will come out. First of all, by virtue of being choices, Choice A will get result B and Choice C will get Result D. So one is good and one is bad.

Second, in relating to the first sentence, maybe we couldn't trust the geth and saving the heretics/not pushing the quarians to war doomed us. Or maybe we should have trusted the geth and we couldn't beat the Reapers without full strength geth. What if the Rachni lied and are working fo rthe reapers? What if they're not and we need their help in ME3 to beat the Reapers?

I spared the merc in Samara's mission the first go around. Then I realized she was the killer. Oh, look. A wrong decision.

[1136342t54_]

Well considering Bioware will be making Paragon choices having negative impacts then I'd say Para Shep will get a bit more flaws added on.

Edit: Which one of Shepard's major Paragon choices actually gave us a entirely good result other than the Council decision? 

Modifié par 1136342t54 , 22 octobre 2011 - 12:23 .

[slimgrin]

Saphra Deden wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

I agree the writers could expand the moral dilemmas in Mass Effect to make Shepard's reputation seem harder to classify. But I agree with those saying Shepard is most definitely not a sue, even if I were forced to take the definition seriously. The game is all about choosing sides, pleasing one group, pissing off another...

And if you play Paragon you never do this.

Did you save the council or not? Did you choose Udina or Anderson?

These have nothing to do with Paragon or Renegade.

Modifié par slimgrin, 22 octobre 2011 - 12:23 .

[LOLandStuff]

Where do I start with Kahlee? First, she's the daughter of someone who's considered a hero. She's blonde in a universe where blonde people are rare. Now she's an AI expert, tomorrow she's a biotic expert. Guys just drop at her feet because she's simply that amazingly stunning. At least with Shepard you had to make the first move. Hell, Jacob even dumps you. She gets pumped up with new skills to keep her in the ME universe and go adventuring with Anderson. Making her naive or dumb isn't helping her not being a sue. She grows balls when convenient. And the list goes on.
If she shows up in ME3, I won't be surprised if all of a sudden she'd be a Reaper or Prothean expert, maybe even both.

[GodWood]

bobdooly wrote...
snip

Yes ME3 might make paragon Shepard less of a Sue.
But we don't know. So far we've only got ME1 & 2 and in both of those he is.

I spared the merc in Samara's mission the first go around. Then I realized she was the killer. Oh, look. A wrong decision.

The only wrong decision.

[1136342t54_]

LOLandStuff wrote...

Where do I start with Kahlee? First, she's the daughter of someone who's considered a hero.She's blonde in a universe where blonde people are rare. Now she's an AI expert, tomorrow she's a biotic expert. Guys just drop at her feet because she's simply that amazingly stunning. At least with Shepard you had to make the first move. Hell, Jacob even dumps you. She gets pumped up with new skills to keep her in the ME universe and go adventuring with Anderson. Making her naive or dumb isn't helping her not being a sue. She grows balls when convenient. And the list goes on.
If she shows up in ME3, I won't be surprised if all of a sudden she'd be a Reaper or Prothean expert, maybe even both.

She is the daughter of a hero who in reality is a old man who is incredibly bitter and annoying as hell.

My Shep is blonde to.

Kahlee's first job was working in a facility that experiment with AI and is a very good tech.  Due to Biotic implants using VI s and her skills in the Alliance its likely she was reccommended by some important friends for the Ascension program. She's always been very experienced with technology.

In ME you can easily look pretty attractive at the age of 50 and last I checked only two guys showed interest in her and Anderson didn't want to be with her due to his job.

[Mx_CN3]

It's almost as if everyone has differing definitions of Mary Sue...

[slimgrin]

Mx_CN3 wrote...

It's almost as if everyone has differing definitions of Mary Sue...

Or the definition is subjective to begin with, which was my original point.

Modifié par slimgrin, 22 octobre 2011 - 12:38 .

[bobdooly]

GodWood wrote...

bobdooly wrote...
snip

Yes ME3 might make paragon Shepard less of a Sue.
But we don't know. So far we've only got ME1 & 2 and in both of those he is.

I spared the merc in Samara's mission the first go around. Then I realized she was the killer. Oh, look. A wrong decision.

The only wrong decision.

None of the major decisions really played out in ME1/2 except the Council and Wrex (and even then...).

You are treated like crap by the Council no matter what you do, so let's move on to Wrex. First, it's Wrex. Second, we don't know how much of a good idea a unified Krogan nation is. They could turn on us after we beath the Reapers.

And no, sparing the merc wasn't the only wrong decision. A Sue would survive Morinth's sex vampirism by being "strong willed" or making Morinth not want to do it. Or something. Shepard dies if you sex her up. Choosing Samara in the first place? She is a very dangerous character who's life philosophy is to take things out of context. If ME crossed with Halo, everybody involved with the SPARTAN program would be hunted down despite saving humanity.

[redleafchewer]

Liara is not a Mary sue, she's more like a slightly twisted Mary Anne

[GodWood]

bobdooly wrote...
A Sue would survive Morinth's sex vampirism by being "strong willed"

Pretty much what Shepard does.
Whereas Morinth can normally hypnotize people with her bosmer eyes, Shepard resists her because he's so "strongwilled".

slimgrin wrote...
Or the definition is subjective to begin with, which was my original point.

It's not that complicated a concept really.

I don't know why people make such a big fuss over it.

Modifié par GodWood, 22 octobre 2011 - 12:49 .

[LOLandStuff]

It doesn't matter what her father does in his spare time, he can drink himself to oblivion and watch soap opera, but he's still a hero and she's still his daughter.
She's just too good at everything she does and more. She keeps getting into trouble and walks out unscathed.
And there are three or four people who would have babies with her. And I wasn't talking about her looks.
And I have a blonde Shepard too, but that's not the point.
I can understand wanting to give Anderson a strong woman to have by his side, but he's being overshadowed by the her awesomeness that is Kahlee Sanders.

[LOLandStuff]

GodWood wrote...

bobdooly wrote...
A Sue would survive Morinth's sex vampirism by being "strong willed"

Pretty much what Shepard does.
Whereas Morinth can normally hypnotize people with her bosmer eyes, Shepard resists her because he's so "strongwilled".

First time I played I couldn't resist Morinth. I was saved by Samara.
And if she didn't kill you the first time, then she does it on her second try.
And lol at bosmer. Thanks, now I'll keep seeing Morinths everywhere.

[bobdooly]

GodWood wrote...

bobdooly wrote...
A Sue would survive Morinth's sex vampirism by being "strong willed"

Pretty much what Shepard does.
Whereas Morinth can normally hypnotize people with her bosmer eyes, Shepard resists her because he's so "strongwilled".

slimgrin wrote...
Or the definition is subjective to begin with, which was my original point.

It's not that complicated a concept really.

I don't know why people make such a big fuss over it.

Shepard survived the seduction because A) Knew before hand what was happening (and yes, strong willed) or ran out of time. I was refering to if you go talk to her on the ship, you can embrace eternity and you get your eggs scrambled.

[slimgrin]

GodWood wrote...


I don't know why people make such a big fuss over it.

Critics of the definition say it's too generalized. Another term I think falls in the same category would be postmodernism - you'll find dozens of interpretations.

Modifié par slimgrin, 22 octobre 2011 - 01:03 .

[Mx_CN3]

GodWood wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
Or the definition is subjective to begin with, which was my original point.

It's not that complicated a concept really.

I don't know why people make such a big fuss over it.

The fact that people are disagreeing over who is a Mary Sue and why shows that it is more complicated than you'd think.

[GodWood]

bobdooly wrote...
I was refering to if you go talk to her on the ship, you can embrace eternity and you get your eggs scrambled.

That's the renegade option. Clearly paragon Shepard's too smart for that

[Mx_CN3]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, not really.

So what does it mean when person A reads person B's argument on why character C is a Mary Sue, and says "that may be the case, but it doesn't make C a Mary Sue?"

[bobdooly]

GodWood wrote...

bobdooly wrote...
I was refering to if you go talk to her on the ship, you can embrace eternity and you get your eggs scrambled.

That's the renegade option. Clearly paragon Shepard's too smart for that

Renegade could also resist Morinth in the initial seduction. A lot of choices are neutral because there are only 6 spots and the other choices had to go somewhere. And renegade is presented as the more risky personality in ME2, such as saving the heretics. Having sex with a sex vampire is pretty risky.

[ladyvader]

slimgrin wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

I agree the writers could expand the moral dilemmas in Mass Effect to make Shepard's reputation seem harder to classify. But I agree with those saying Shepard is most definitely not a sue, even if I were forced to take the definition seriously. The game is all about choosing sides, pleasing one group, pissing off another...

And if you play Paragon you never do this.

Did you save the council or not? Did you choose Udina or Anderson?

These have nothing to do with Paragon or Renegade.

You don't even have to pick either one when it comes to Udina or Anderson.  You're forced to pick in ME2 even if you picked on in ME.

[1136342t54_]

LOLandStuff wrote...

It doesn't matter what her father does in his spare time, he can drink himself to oblivion and watch soap opera, but he's still a hero and she's still his daughter.
She's just too good at everything she does and more. She keeps getting into trouble and walks out unscathed.
And there are three or four people who would have babies with her. And I wasn't talking about her looks.
And I have a blonde Shepard too, but that's not the point.
I can understand wanting to give Anderson a strong woman to have by his side, but he's being overshadowed by the her awesomeness that is Kahlee Sanders.

Actually it does since you seem to believe being the daughter of someone who is considered a hero by many is so significant when in fact it really isn't and does not in anyway show sueish she is.

Instead of claiming she is good at everything actually provide some examples please other than she is good at some AI tech and other technical skillz that she was trained in. 

First prove they want to have babies with her then tell me all three or four people.

No he wasn't at least not in the book I was reading. I never cared much for Kahlee and she wasn't significant enough to me to overshadow Anderson or anyone to be honest.